beowulf 1 #26 January 12, 2012 QuoteQuoteEmotions and feelings should have no place in determining whether something exists or not. With out evidence of any diety the only reasonable conclustion is that there are none. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. It's not reasonable to conclude that some thing exists if there is no evidence. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
StreetScooby 5 #27 January 12, 2012 Quote It's not reasonable to conclude that some thing exists if there is no evidence. What is _your_ standard of evidence?We are all engines of karma Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beowulf 1 #28 January 12, 2012 Evidence of neutrinos have been detected. Look it up. Any type of evidence that can be scientificly evaluated and reproduced would be acceptable. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DanG 1 #29 January 12, 2012 Would it be rude to butt in here and say, "I TOLD YOU SO!!!" Conclusion: hypothesis confirmed. - Dan G Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
StreetScooby 5 #30 January 12, 2012 Quote Evidence of neutrinos have been detected. Look it up. Any type of evidence that can be scientificly evaluated and reproduced would be acceptable. Exactly. How long did neutrino's exist before we detected them? The constraint of reproducible observations is an enormously difficult one. There are things that exist which our science cannot measure. It's been that way for a long time, and will continue to be so for a long time. Just because our science, at this point in time, can't independently and reproducibly measure something doesn't mean it doesn't exist.We are all engines of karma Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #31 January 12, 2012 QuoteEvidence of neutrinos have been detected. Look it up. Any type of evidence that can be scientificly evaluated and reproduced would be acceptable. But by your logic, neutrinos couldn't have existed before evidence of them was discovered.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #32 January 12, 2012 Quote Would it be rude to butt in here and say, "I TOLD YOU SO!!!" Conclusion: hypothesis confirmed. Nope....wasn't in four posts. Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,108 #33 January 12, 2012 >What would constitute evidence in your argument? An easy one would be: An experiment where a group of worthy worshipers prayed for a specific demonstrable miracle (say, the conversion of a corpse into a pillar of salt, or giving a snake/donkey the power of speech, or the halting of the rotation of the earth for a hour) and had it occur. Have control groups where non-religious, differently-religious or non-worthy worshipers prayed for the same thing to demonstrate that it is prayers of the worthy to the correct God that caused it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
StreetScooby 5 #34 January 12, 2012 Quote An experiment where a group of worthy worshipers prayed for a specific demonstrable miracle (say, the conversion of a corpse into a pillar of salt, or giving a snake/donkey the power of speech, or the halting of the rotation of the earth for a hour) and had it occur. Have control groups where non-religious, differently-religious or non-worthy worshipers prayed for the same thing to demonstrate that it is prayers of the worthy to the correct God that caused it. Uhm, I see that experiment as silly, but then again, I don't view God as most Christians do.We are all engines of karma Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,108 #35 January 12, 2012 >Uhm, I see that experiment as silly If it worked (i.e. if people prayed for the Earth to stop rotating, and it did) wouldn't that help prove to you that their prayers were answered by a deity, or a deity-like construct? I mean, it's not conclusive proof of course, but it would be strongly suggestive. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
StreetScooby 5 #36 January 12, 2012 Your "logic" reminds me of a Wolfgang Pauli quote: Quote However, this was not his most severe criticism, which he reserved for theories or theses so unclearly presented as to be untestable or unevaluatable and, thus, not properly belonging within the realm of science, even though posing as such. They were worse than wrong because they could not be proven wrong. Famously, he once said of such an unclear paper: Das ist nicht nur nicht richtig, es ist nicht einmal falsch! "Not only is it not right, it's not even wrong!" I see where you're going, but it's a silly argument, IMO.We are all engines of karma Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beowulf 1 #37 January 12, 2012 This is one the dumbest arguments out there. Unicorns and the Christan god are equally as likely to exist. Till there is evidence of a unicorn there is no reason to believe they exist, just like the Christian god. The argument for the existence of any deity is the same as for a unicorn. It's therefore reasonable to say that deitys don't exist. There was a much better argument for the existence of Neutrinos and once scientists were able to come up with a test to run to see if they actually do exist they were then proven to exist. While Neutrinos always existed we were not able to detect them this of course doesn't mean they didn't exist till we were able to detect them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Coreece 190 #38 January 12, 2012 QuoteQuoteQuoteEmotions and feelings should have no place in determining whether something exists or not. With out evidence of any diety the only reasonable conclustion is that there are none. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. It's not reasonable to conclude that some thing exists if there is no evidence. There are plenty of reasons why I believe in God and plenty of personal experiences that help my faith to become more practical....Would you consider it evidentiary proof, no...but it's enough to sustain my faith. It works. No need for me to mix science and religion...Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #39 January 12, 2012 QuoteWhile Neutrinos always existed we were not able to detect them this of course doesn't mean they didn't exist till we were able to detect them. And yet, you claim that lack of evidence of the existence of a Deity is perfect evidence that said Deity doesn't exist....sorry, can't have it both ways.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beowulf 1 #40 January 12, 2012 QuoteQuote An experiment where a group of worthy worshipers prayed for a specific demonstrable miracle (say, the conversion of a corpse into a pillar of salt, or giving a snake/donkey the power of speech, or the halting of the rotation of the earth for a hour) and had it occur. Have control groups where non-religious, differently-religious or non-worthy worshipers prayed for the same thing to demonstrate that it is prayers of the worthy to the correct God that caused it. Uhm, I see that experiment as silly, but then again, I don't view God as most Christians do. Any kind of evidence that could be tested that remotely suggests that a deity exists would be very significant! Right now the evidence amounts to zero. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
StreetScooby 5 #41 January 12, 2012 Quote This is one the dumbest arguments out there. Unicorns and the Christan god are equally as likely to exist. Till there is evidence of a unicorn there is no reason to believe they exist, just like the Christian god. The argument for the existence of any deity is the same as for a unicorn. It's therefore reasonable to say that deitys don't exist. You lost me here... What question are you trying to answer?We are all engines of karma Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
StreetScooby 5 #42 January 12, 2012 Quote Any kind of evidence that could be tested that remotely suggests that a deity exists would be very significant! Right now the evidence amounts to zero. There's an enormous number of observations made by humans across the planet, spanning all cultures, that there is something more to our existence than just the human body. Granted, none of those observations make a gauge move, but that doesn't invalidate them. My point here is that one's experience with "God" tends to be deeply personal. Those that choose to make those observations within themselves, and practice whatever faith based discipline involved with those observations, do have reproducible observations that can be shared with like minded people. Even better, at their core, most "religions" advocate a core set of behaviours that are remarkably consistent. Doesn't this count for something?We are all engines of karma Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beowulf 1 #43 January 12, 2012 QuoteQuoteWhile Neutrinos always existed we were not able to detect them this of course doesn't mean they didn't exist till we were able to detect them. And yet, you claim that lack of evidence of the existence of a Deity is perfect evidence that said Deity doesn't exist....sorry, can't have it both ways. Your logic is totally screwed up. That wasn't what I said or what I meant. Of course the Neutrinos always existed. They weren't Neutrinos till we named them that. Wolfgang Pauli put forth an argument that this undetected particle existed and at that point as far as anyone knew they didn't exist. Once there was a way to detect them then we can safely say yes he was right and they do exist. Not every thing that everyone imagines exists, so we can't say something exists till it's proven to exist. If I were to show you box and tell you $100,000 exists in said box and that I will trade it to you for a car worth the same. Would you just take my word or would you want evidence to support my claim that there is $100,000 in the box before signing over the title? I am saying that it is unreasonable to believe there is a god till there is evidence of one. It doesn't even have to be conclusive evidence. Just something that can be independantly tested. Otherwise it's unreasonable to say any deity exists. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
StreetScooby 5 #44 January 12, 2012 Quote Otherwise it's unreasonable to say any deity exists. You seem to be arguing against a "God" that's a single sentient entity, kind of like us/superman?We are all engines of karma Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beowulf 1 #45 January 12, 2012 QuoteQuote Any kind of evidence that could be tested that remotely suggests that a deity exists would be very significant! Right now the evidence amounts to zero. There's an enormous number of observations made by humans across the planet, spanning all cultures, that there is something more to our existence than just the human body. Granted, none of those observations make a gauge move, but that doesn't invalidate them. My point here is that one's experience with "God" tends to be deeply personal. Those that choose to make those observations within themselves, and practice whatever faith based discipline involved with those observations, do have reproducible observations that can be shared with like minded people. Even better, at their core, most "religions" advocate a core set of behaviours that are remarkably consistent. Doesn't this count for something? No none of that counts for anything. It's all highly subjective and none of it can be repeated or tested. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #46 January 12, 2012 QuoteQuoteQuoteWhile Neutrinos always existed we were not able to detect them this of course doesn't mean they didn't exist till we were able to detect them. And yet, you claim that lack of evidence of the existence of a Deity is perfect evidence that said Deity doesn't exist....sorry, can't have it both ways. Your logic is totally screwed up. That wasn't what I said or what I meant. Really? "It's not reasonable to conclude that some thing exists if there is no evidence." - beowulf, post 26 "While Neutrinos always existed we were not able to detect them this of course doesn't mean they didn't exist till we were able to detect them." - beowulf, post 37Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beowulf 1 #47 January 12, 2012 QuoteQuote Otherwise it's unreasonable to say any deity exists. You seem to be arguing against a "God" that's a single sentient entity, kind of like us/superman? No I am arguing against any supernatural entity of any kind. I don't know about you but I am not superman. What do you mean by "us/superman"? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
StreetScooby 5 #48 January 12, 2012 Quote No none of that counts for anything. You're wrong. There's been an enormous amount of good done on this earth by people whose beliefs you can only ridicule. Quote It's all highly subjective and none of it can be repeated or tested. So, you've tried this for yourself?We are all engines of karma Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beowulf 1 #49 January 12, 2012 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteWhile Neutrinos always existed we were not able to detect them this of course doesn't mean they didn't exist till we were able to detect them. And yet, you claim that lack of evidence of the existence of a Deity is perfect evidence that said Deity doesn't exist....sorry, can't have it both ways. Your logic is totally screwed up. That wasn't what I said or what I meant. Really? "It's not reasonable to conclude that some thing exists if there is no evidence." - beowulf, post 26 "While Neutrinos always existed we were not able to detect them this of course doesn't mean they didn't exist till we were able to detect them." - beowulf, post 37 Not sure why that confuses you. I don't see the conflict that you seem to see. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beowulf 1 #50 January 12, 2012 QuoteQuote No none of that counts for anything. You're wrong. There's been an enormous amount of good done on this earth by people whose beliefs you can only ridicule. Quote It's all highly subjective and none of it can be repeated or tested. So, you've tried this for yourself? There has also been an enormous amount of bad done by people with the same beliefs. I grew up Christian, and I am not any better or worse of a person for not believing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
