Concealed Carry Handgun?

[mnealtx 0]

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I take it the three guys were available to testify.
Let's put it this way: Lime is good for more than just putting into a bottle of Corona.

Trying to drum up some business, counselor?

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[Heatmiser 0]

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I take it, that pulling a gun is okay, as long as you don't point it at someone.

We were antelope hunting, several years back. Another guy, myself, and our wives were hunting. We pulled down into a valley to camp for the night. There were no signs up saying that we couldn't go down there. We probably should have checked better. Sometimes it's hard to tell where public land ends and private starts.

At any rate, a jeep followed us down into this drainage. It had an open top with roll bars, and a canvas tarp covering the back. It pulled up with the canvas tarp facing us.

Next thing you know, this idiot throws open the canvas. He's sitting there with the butt of his AR-15 on his hip, with the muzzle pointing in the air. John Wayne couldn't have done this any better. Another guy was driving.

There sat, a stupid looking kid, with his finger on the trigger. You could tell he was loving every second of this....I felt like grabbing him out of the back of that jeep, and giving him a good thrashing....

Supposedly, we were on private land, and they were kicking us off. We took our ass chewing and left...

Don't know where you are, but here in Oklahoma, that would be a negative, ghost rider. The attorney in my CC class said that showing, or even touching you're weapon is brandishing. It doesn't come into play unless I am in immanent danger of grievous bodily harm. If I have time to draw my weapon, but not fire it, then the threat wasn't immanent. Just my 2nd hand experience, and as you well know, I only played a lawyer on t.v..

What you say is reflective of your knowledge...HOW ya say it is reflective of your experience. Airtwardo

Someone's going to be spanked! Hopefully, it will be me. Skymama

[mnealtx 0]

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I take it, that pulling a gun is okay, as long as you don't point it at someone.

Check with your local PD and a lawyer that specifies in self defense (you need to have one on retainer anyway), but *in general*, pulling a gun absent the Ability/Opportunity/Jeopardy spoken of constitutes a threat of deadly force where *you* are the attacker.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[Andy9o8 2]

The following is very over-simplified, and there are countless variations to scenarios - but FWIW:

Scenario #1-
Dude: We don' like 'jour addy-tood. Maybe we gonna fuck 'jou up.
Citizen - That would be ill-advised, for I have superior armament.
Dude: Huh?
Citizen Back off, tough guy.
That's arguably self defense, if Dude is close enough to carry out his threat of harm

Scenario #2 -
Dude: Your spouse, who I might point out is obese and unattractive, is also promiscuous. I suspect you have under-developed genitalia.
Citizen: Huh?

Citizen: Oh. That's gonna cost you, asshole.
Probably not self-defense.

[kelpdiver 2]

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I take it, that pulling a gun is okay, as long as you don't point it at someone.

It's still brandishing...often no joy on a legal basis. There is an artifact that he was camping - the campsite in some states/cases is treated like your home, with the same rights.

But if he got 30 years for this, I suspect your brother didn't have all the details of the incident. People serve less time for killing people.

[mnealtx 0]

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The following is very over-simplified, and there are countless variations to scenarios - but FWIW:

Scenario #1-
Dude: We don' like 'jour addy-tood. Maybe we gonna fuck 'jou up.
Citizen - That would be ill-advised, for I have superior armament.
Dude: Huh?
Citizen Back off, tough guy.
That's arguably self defense, if Dude is close enough to carry out his threat of harm

Scenario #2 -
Dude: Your spouse, who I might point out is obese and unattractive, is also promiscuous. I suspect you have under-developed genitalia.
Citizen: Huh?

Citizen: Oh. That's gonna cost you, asshole.
Probably not self-defense.

Re: Scenario #2 - When you take on the right of armed defense, you give up the right to 'defend your honor'. Something that would ordinarily earn the transgressor a poke in the nose, you now have to let pass, since the fact that you are armed, even though you didn't use it, creates the impression of overwhelming force in the minds of a jury.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[airtwardo 7]

]Any suggestions on how to best to carry a medium sized auto that is concealed. Would a shoulder holster be the best. I imagine this too is something a person would have to experiment with.

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http://www.lobogunleather.com/3_model_1_pancake_style_holster

I like a pancake for belt carry, I'm a fairly big guy and can easily tote a large frame without any profiling.

For the Glock, there are lots of small inside the pants models that work well. see pic

I have a few inside the pants holsters, they work nice for med. autos but with the summer heat & humidity down here ya end up cleaning the thing every day.


Shoulder holsters are a lot more comfortable when you're driving if sitting a lot. You are stuck leaving your jacket on where ever you go though.


How it went for me Steve is~ I tried several different types and after a month or two realized that there isn't ONE style that's gonna work for all situations. Kinda like just having one pair of shoes.

I would suggest you get one for the hip and one for the shoulder, get good quality leather and one that's designed for the actual weapon you'll be putting in it.

The fanny pack thing went out 10 years ago, everybody knows there is a gun in there. They tend to attract more attention...especially on 'old guys' at the market etc. than you probably want.

Somebody gave me a super high quality ankle holster for a small revolver a few years back...very uncomfortable and hard to get to...waste of time.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[Andy9o8 2]

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if he got 30 years for this, I suspect your brother didn't have all the details of the incident. People serve less time for killing people.

That was my first thought when I read that, too: even if it was concurrent sentences (i.e., 10 years total for all), there's definitely a lot more to that story than we're getting fourth-hand.

[steve1 5]

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Your brother's friend *certainly* should have known this and been able to articulate his reasoning.

I guess the guy had been drinking...this undoubtedly affected his judgment. He had a clean thirty year record as a parole officer and policeman.

The good news is that he got out early. My brother said he looked very old and unhealthy when he saw him. I guess prison would do that to you....

[steve1 5]

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if he got 30 years for this, I suspect your brother didn't have all the details of the incident. People serve less time for killing people.

That was my first thought when I read that, too: even if it was concurrent sentences (i.e., 10 years total for all), there's definitely a lot more to that story than we're getting fourth-hand.

Nope, that was his sentence. Thirty years total. Maybe there was more to that story.

Yes, it makes a big difference who your judge is, and where you are tried for murder.

A friend of mine was killed by his wife. She came into his office one morning and blew away most of his groin area with a 357. She got less than twenty years.

I knew another guy, actually he was once a student of mine, who kidnapped another man, then cut his throat with a dull knife....he was out after 18 years. Luckily they sent him back.

Then there's O.J. who killed two people with a knife, and then he got off scott free because he was rich.

So much for justice in America....

[Rstanley0312 1]

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Recommendation strictly based on outdoor activities for women:

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/01/15/ruger-lcr-new-38-special-revolver/

When training ladies on how to shoot, do some CQB, home defense, jogging, etc. we use a Ruger Mark III (Standard or Hunter Model) .22 rimfire pistol for target practice... 550 rounds for around $20.00

http://www.ruger.com/products/markIII/index.html

Please don't just buy a weapon, get the ccw and then just carry the pistol. Scenario planning and tactics should be a once a week exercise. Teaching situational awareness is easy... when you're out with her, ask her to look around and say things like, "Three guys just came out of that store with weapons, what do you do?" That can be a daily exercise. (the S/O and I play this game with each other).

Add our "kid got snatched and..." to the scenario and Brother... you do NOT want to be on the wrong side of momma's gun.

I carry a S&W .38 airweight with crimson grip. It is a nice option. Small and pretty accurate. It's a five shot revolver but for me the crimson grip is a add on that is well worth it. It is hard to miss when you practice with the pistol and have the advantage of knowing that where the little red dot is the bullet will go. I also carry a 1911 or my M&P .45 too but normally in the winter with bulky clothes. I have smaller hands and all of these pistols work really well grip wise. The .38 has different grip options and the M&P come with three different grips.

Life is all about ass....either you're kicking it, kissing it, working it off, or trying to get a piece of it.
Muff Brother #4382 Dudeist Skydiver #000
www.fundraiseadventure.com

[PiLFy 3]

Being an argumentative, obstinate Troll doesn't make you right. It just makes you an Ass. You didn't prove a thing. I see why you have so much time to hunch over your keyboard starting fights w/people. I doubt anyone would put up w/you. I'm done w/you, too. Piss off...

[mnealtx 0]

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Being an argumentative, obstinate Troll doesn't make you right. It just makes you an Ass. You didn't prove a thing. I see why you have so much time to hunch over your keyboard starting fights w/people. I doubt anyone would put up w/you. I'm done w/you, too. Piss off...

Unfortunately for (what passes for) your argument, the thread shows that YOU are the one that started the inane comments and attacks.

Although I guess the PA's *are* all that's left for you after all, given your 'argument'.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[wolfriverjoe 1,523]

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Any suggestions on how to best to carry a medium sized auto that is concealed. Would a shoulder holster be the best. I imagine this too is something a person would have to experiment with...

I was also wondering when you could legally point a gun at someone...

Just like gun choice, carry choice is a personal preference.
Shoulder holsters are really popular in the movies. Not so much in real life. Not too comfortable, and far more of a 'covered' carry than actually "concealed". Unless you have a serious "bodybuilder" shape, they aren't easy to hide, unless it's a really small gun.

I prefer to carry at the waist. Usually behind the hip. 'Twardos "Inside the Waistband" hoster can be really useful. You don't need a long coat to cover it, it's readily accessible, it's reasonably comfortable.

Some of the "Belly Band" setups are nice. Well concealed, fairly comfortable, accessible depending on what you are wearing.
Ankle holsters are uncomfortable, slow, only good for small guns, but (depending on choice of shoes and pants) very well hidden.

Again, you have to try different guns in combination with different holster options to find out what you like best. There is no "one size fits all." You will probably find that there isn't even one method that works well for your entire life. Activity, dress, weather (affects dress), where you are going, ect. all are factors in what you carry and how you carry it.
And, FWIW, what works best for you probably won't be what works best for your wife.
You have said that she shoots and has done so for a while. DON"T insist on making her choices for her.

1911s can be fine carry guns. The alloy framed Officer's (small one) or Commander (medium one) are not tiny, but concealable. Not light, but certainly managable. Not beginner guns, but as long as the shooter is properly trained in the operation and maintains proficiency by shooting on a regular basis, they are a viable option.

The Glock 36 that was suggested earlier is really an "expert"gun. If she doesn't shoot a lot and isn't willing to put up with serious recoil then she won't do well with it. It's small, light and shooting a full power 45. It is a real beast. 9mm is a lot easier to shoot and a lot less intimidating. I've seen a lot of newer shooters with this sort of setup and their marksmanship is atrocious. They start to flinch, and with the longer trigger pull (Glocks, XDs, M&Ps) the bullet often goes into the ground about 10 feet in front of them. When asked what kind of training they have had, they just give a stupid stare.

Reloads are a nice option for practice (using them for self defense is a really bad idea, as discussed earlier). They usually drop the cost by about 1/2. Lead can be a choice, if not driven too fast (or gas checked, but that's kind of a pain) in a gun that can shoot them. Jacketed/plated bullets are available for where lead isn't a good idea.
NEVER run unjacketed lead through a Glock. EVER. The polygon rifling will plug up in an amazingly short time and the gun will blow up.
Regular land and groove rifling will tolerate lead fairly well, most of the time. Some guns don't like it.

Cleaning lead can be a pain. My solution is to clean the barrel out each time I shoot. And I usually go 100-200 rounds per session, so it doesn't get too dirty.
An article on lead removal: http://www.gunreports.com/special_reports/accessories/Removing-Lead-Fouling189-1.html

When can you legally point a gun at someone? Well, usually only when you can legally shoot them. Pointing a gun is usually considered "deadly force" and can only happen when you are in "reasonable fear of death or great bodily injury."

That's were good training comes in. A good carry class will cover the legal aspects. And the consequences of pointing the gun and of pulling the trigger.

In short, pulling the trigger has to be the absolute, postive last option.
And you will want to be sure that your lawyer will be able to convince a judge and/or jury that it was justified.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[steve1 5]

Thanks Wolfriverjoe... I've learned a lot about pistols from you. I'll make sure the wife and I get further training.

They found a body of a guy, who was beaten to death, a few days ago. His body was dumped a few miles out of town. This sort of thing has never happened here....This is small town USA.

I think a 9mm, would be big enough for my wife. I like mine...it sure is easy to shoot and hit with. I know many people feel that it is too small, but being able to hit what you are aiming at is important.

In about 73 or so, we had an SF, A-team, give our National Guard unit some training. I still remember the following story.

One of these guys had been on guard duty late at night. He was in a base camp in Vietnam. He was standing in trench, and it was darker than dark.

Out of nowhere a NVA soldier jumped in the trench with him. The guy had an AK-47 with a bayonet. This enemy soldier had the element of surprise working in his favor. He could have shot this American soldier, but he chose to stick him with his bayonet.

But this SF soldier was prepared....He whipped out his 9mm pistol, and shot the bad guy twice in the chest. That put him down for good.

I imagine he was using full jacketed ammo. I would think that hollow pts. would have worked better....9 mm. pistols were not issued to troops back then, but apparently some carried them.

I sometimes wonder why more of those soldiers didn't suffer from PTSD.

[MikeJD 0]

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I sometimes wonder why more of those soldiers didn't suffer from PTSD.

No more surprising to me than how many civilians seem to suffer from pre-traumatic stress disorder!

I don't have strong feelings about US gun laws, and in any case they're none of my business. But what does strike me is how much less complicated things are when you don't feel the need to carry one!

[rushmc 23]

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I sometimes wonder why more of those soldiers didn't suffer from PTSD.

No more surprising to me than how many civilians seem to suffer from pre-traumatic stress disorder!

I don't have strong feelings about US gun laws, and in any case they're none of my business. But what does strike me is how much less complicated things are when you don't feel the need to carry one!

I do not feel the need to carry one. I want to be able to if I wish. This is after all, my right

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[JohnRich 4]

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what does strike me is how much less complicated things are when you don't feel the need to carry one!

Yes, not having choices is very uncomplicated. Then you are just a victim of whatever someone else wants to do to you, without any choice to do anything else. No decisions to make. No thinking required. You just take your beating and lose your money, and you're done. Very uncomplicated!

Oh, and for someone who carries a gun, they're life is also uncomplicated. As long as no criminals are attacking them, then their life is just as uncomplicated as they guys without guns. The only time it gets more complicated is when that robber attacks them. And then they have a complicated choice to make: they can be a victim like you, take their beating and lose their money, or, they they have the option to defend themselves. Gun carriers willingly accept that complication, because they think it's worth it. And the law supports their choice to complicate their life during those critical moments.

But most of all, the complication comes in the life of the criminal who is doing the attacking. For them, it turns their choice to rob someone into a life-threatening complication. Too bad for them.

Choices are a great thing. I'm all in favor of the freedom to have the choice to complicate my life. I prefer that over being physically assaulted and robbed.

I won't tell you that you must carry a gun, and likewise, you shouldn't tell me that I cannot carry a gun. Choices are complicated. Freedom is complicated. Freedom of choice is preferred over the alternative.

[MikeJD 0]

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You just take your beating and lose your money, and you're done.

Not so far!

I guess it's just a completely different mindset. Yes, the law says that I can't carry a gun. If it didn't, would I carry one? Well, I might be inclined to because of the thought that so many other people would be packing, but I doubt it. I think the chances of me finding myself in a situation where a gun would help me more than it would help the other guy are vanishingly small.

Which means that I don't have to choose one, pay for it, be trained in its use, carry it, worry about someone else getting hold of it, figure out what to do with it when I took off my jacket, etc. etc.

I'm not saying you're wrong to carry a weapon - that's your prerogative and your constitutional right. It's just that, personally speaking, I don't 'get it' - and I think to a large extent it's a cultural thing, so I probably never will.

[devildog 0]

I'd rather have and not need than need and not have

You stop breathing for a few minutes and everyone jumps to conclusions.

[MikeJD 0]

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I'd rather have and not need than need and not have

Could say the same thing about a personal lightning conductor, but I wouldn't want to lug one around.

[JohnRich 4]

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You just take your beating and lose your money, and you're done.

Not so far! ... I think the chances of me finding myself in a situation where a gun would help me more than it would help the other guy are vanishingly small.

You lug around a 10-lb reserve parachute every time you jump based upon the small chance that you might need it. Why not just leave that behind? Think how much more free you'll be in the sky without all that extra dead weight on your back!

[billvon 3,116]

>You lug around a 10-lb reserve parachute every time you jump based upon
>the small chance that you might need it. Why not just leave that behind?

Sometimes I do!

[MikeJD 0]

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You lug around a 10-lb reserve parachute every time you jump based upon the small chance that you might need it. Why not just leave that behind? Think how much more free you'll be in the sky without all that extra dead weight on your back!

Perhaps your definition of 'vanishingly small' differs from mine, John.

I've had to use that reserve parachute twice now. Without it I'd be dead or very severely injured, and most skydivers could say the same if they've been jumping for long enough.

But I've been walking around pretty much unmolested for 40-odd years now, and never carried a firearm.

How many times have you used your reserve? How many times have you saved yourself by pulling out your gun?

[JohnRich 4]

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You lug around a 10-lb reserve parachute every time you jump based upon the small chance that you might need it. Why not just leave that behind? Think how much more free you'll be in the sky without all that extra dead weight on your back!

Perhaps your definition of 'vanishingly small' differs from mine, John.

I've had to use that reserve parachute twice now. Without it I'd be dead or very severely injured, and most skydivers could say the same if they've been jumping for long enough.

But I've been walking around pretty much unmolested for 40-odd years now, and never carried a firearm.

How many times have you used your reserve? How many times have you saved yourself by pulling out your gun?

The odds vary, but the principle of being prepared to save your life remains the same. Yet in one instance you opt to be able to save yourself, and in another you don't. Inconsistent.

Do you have a fire extinguisher in your home? How many house fires have you had?