steve1 5 #151 January 17, 2012 I did buy some lead, cast bullets. The guy I bought them from, said that lead fouling is a real problem, (if you load them full power). He said at slower velocities the problem is less of a factor. But from the sound of things they may not cycle through a GLock 19, (if they are under loaded). I guess I could shoot them in my other 9mm. They seem to feed okay, in that. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #152 January 17, 2012 QuoteI did buy some lead, cast bullets. The guy I bought them from, said that lead fouling is a real problem, (if you load them full power). He said at slower velocities the problem is less of a factor. But from the sound of things they may not cycle through a GLock 19, (if they are under loaded). I guess I could shoot them in my other 9mm. They seem to feed okay, in that. Your friend is incorrect. Shoot them in your other pistol all you like.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #153 January 17, 2012 QuoteThere's a trail near me that I often run. It's very secluded. I frequently see women on it jogging solo, even at dusk. The way they're often dressed in form-hugging shorts and short-length top, anyone can tell that they're not armed. I'm sorry life is unequal and thus unfair, but I think those women are making a dangerous mistake. If my wife or daughters did that, I'd shit a brick. Get your wife that gun. those women do tend to be fast, however. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PiLFy 3 #154 January 17, 2012 1911s are horrible to carry because they're so heavy & HUGE. Yeah, they're flat. So what? If you've got a Butt the size of the Bismark? You can hide it w/o it printing. Most people have no business carrying a single-action semi, anyway. It's too easy to screw up w/one. Most police forces won't allow them for that reason. Who cares what they weigh unloaded? I'm not walking around like that. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #155 January 17, 2012 Quote1911s are horrible to carry because they're so heavy & HUGE. Yeah, they're flat. So what? If you've got a Butt the size of the Bismark? You can hide it w/o it printing. The *only* advantage to the 'plastic fantastics' in regards to actual carry vs. use is weight - the loaded G21 (45 cal) is the same weight (38.5 oz) as the empty 1911 (39 oz). 1911 slide is 0.9 inches wide. A Glock 21 slide is 1.3 inches. Double stack grip is appreciably wider than a single stack grip. 1911 height is 5.5 inches. Glock 21 height is 5.47 inches. QuoteMost people have no business carrying a single-action semi, anyway. It's too easy to screw up w/one. Which, of course, is why the military used it for 70-some years and people (including law enforcement) still carry them today. It's not suitable for everyone, but that doesn't mean it's suitable for no-one. QuoteMost police forces won't allow them for that reason Glock has a lever in the trigger that likes to get caught in things and set the gun off (Plaxico Burress, the DEA guy that shot himself). 1911 has a grip safety and a manual safety, both of which have be disabled before it will fire. QuoteWho cares what they weigh unloaded? I'm not walking around like that. Because weight *is* a very valid concern. It affects comfort as well as concealment.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 7 #156 January 17, 2012 QuoteQuoteI did buy some lead, cast bullets. The guy I bought them from, said that lead fouling is a real problem, (if you load them full power). He said at slower velocities the problem is less of a factor. But from the sound of things they may not cycle through a GLock 19, (if they are under loaded). I guess I could shoot them in my other 9mm. They seem to feed okay, in that. Your friend is incorrect. Shoot them in your other pistol all you like. Well...that all depends, if the cast bullets are really 'soft' they do seem to foul, and accuracy goes out the window after a 100 rounds or so, let it go on too long and it seems internal pressures build up. I've noticed it on the 9mm Browning more than 1911's but it's there. I've been casting bullets for 40 years and how you size & lube them matters, as does the lead composition...for example, take a mold 'designed' for a 147gr bullet and add 10% extra tin & antimony to the pot ~ you will get a 125gr projectile that's soft enough to get the lands & grooves, but hard enough to leave no fouling and punch through things ball ammo won't. ~add 20% and ya get a sub 100gr non-jacketed bullet that though somewhat inaccurate, will slice through 1/4" plate! Adding a gas cup on the tail helps reduce fouling too, but it's an extra time consuming step and a real PIA. ~Just to be clear to Steve, you shouldn't fire lead through the Glock NOT because of the 'under-powered' possibility, but instead because of the way the barrel is manufactured. Friend of mine didn't understand this and really messed up an older HK assault rifle with lead reloads...we've cleaned it & scoped the bore 20 times, don't look rite & it's never shot the same since. ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #157 January 17, 2012 While not exactly common, it's not all that *uncommon*, either. Do a web search for "glock kaboom" and you'll see examples and plenty of discussion on possible reasons. For myself, I'd rather be safe than sorry - if I ever buy a glock, I'll shoot jacketed rounds through it.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #158 January 17, 2012 QuoteThere's a trail near me that I often run. It's very secluded. I frequently see women on it jogging solo, even at dusk. The way they're often dressed in form-hugging shorts and short-length top, anyone can tell that they're not armed. I'm sorry life is unequal and thus unfair, but I think those women are making a dangerous mistake. If my wife or daughters did that, I'd shit a brick. Get your wife that gun. Oh, I wouldn't be so sure. http://www.14news.com/story/16521783/nc-murder-suspect-hides-gun-in-rectum Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #159 January 17, 2012 Quote Oh, I wouldn't be so sure. http://www.14news.com/story/16521783/nc-murder-suspect-hides-gun-in-rectum Well, *that's* gonna drop the resale price... Can you imagine the cops? "I'm not going to test fire it!!!"Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PiLFy 3 #160 January 17, 2012 "The *only* advantage to the 'plastic fantastics' in regards to actual carry vs. use is weight" I disagree, but feel free to blowhard all you want... "Which, of course, is why the military used it for 70-some years and people (including law enforcement) still carry them today. It's not suitable for everyone, but that doesn't mean it's suitable for no-one." Everyone is aware of the 1911's long service record IN THE MILITARY. Everyone is also aware that some police departments still allow them. Most forces do not. I grew up around guns. I've been shooting all my life. I think if most people give themselves an honest evaluation. They'll decide that carrying a single-action 1911 probably isn't the best choice for them. I never said they aren't suitable for anyone to carry. You did. "Glock has a lever in the trigger that likes to get caught in things and set the gun off (Plaxico Burress, the DEA guy that shot himself). 1911 has a grip safety and a manual safety, both of which have be disabled before it will fire." Most people who shoot, have fired a number of both types of guns. We know how both function. Plaxico Burress was an NFL player, not a DEA cop. He shot himself because he was a stupid dick who stuffed a Glock into his waistband (ALA Gangstah) sans a proper holster. The Glock is the safer gun, hands down. "Because weight *is* a very valid concern. It affects comfort as well as concealment." YOU can walk around w/an unloaded gun if you wish. There may be one less Troll around here if you make a habit of that, though. Most people have enough sense to not walk around w/an empty gun. They're not too useful in an emergency. The 1911 remains a great gun that has its place. Today, technological advances offer us better choices for a lot of possible situations. Get over it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #161 January 17, 2012 Quote"The *only* advantage to the 'plastic fantastics' in regards to actual carry vs. use is weight" I disagree, but feel free to blowhard all you want... As opposed to all those *wonderful* facts you gave in your reasoning, I suppose? QuoteQuote"Which, of course, is why the military used it for 70-some years and people (including law enforcement) still carry them today. It's not suitable for everyone, but that doesn't mean it's suitable for no-one." Everyone is aware of the 1911's long service record IN THE MILITARY. Everyone is also aware that some police departments still allow them. Most forces do not. I grew up around guns. I've been shooting all my life. I think if most people give themselves an honest evaluation. They'll decide that carrying a single-action 1911 probably isn't the best choice for them. I never said they aren't suitable for anyone to carry. You did. You didn't explicitly say it, no... but you certainly alluded to it. Given the reasoning you're using for your statements, you certainly didn't seem to learn much in your life around guns. QuotePlaxico Burress was an NFL player, not a DEA cop. He shot himself because he was a stupid dick who stuffed a Glock into his waistband (ALA Ganstah) sans a proper holster. The Glock is the safer gun, hands down. And the cop shot himself because his finger was in the trigger guard. Thanks for disproving your own point within a single paragraph, it saves me the trouble. QuoteQuoteBecause weight *is* a very valid concern. It affects comfort as well as concealment. YOU can walk around w/an unloaded gun if you wish. Where did I advocate carrying an unloaded gun, pray tell? (Although that *is* the law in Cali and Illinois.) QuoteThere may be one less Troll around here if you make a habit of that, though. Nah...we'll still accept you. QuoteMost people have enough sense to not walk around w/an empty gun. They're not too useful in an emergency. Most people realize that a comparison of weight is....a comparison of weight. QuoteThe 1911 remains a great gun that has its place. Today, technological advances offer us better choices for a lot of possible situations. Get over it. Sounds like someone's upset that their Glock got dissed. Get over it.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #162 January 17, 2012 Quote Quote Oh, I wouldn't be so sure. http://www.14news.com/story/16521783/nc-murder-suspect-hides-gun-in-rectum Well, *that's* gonna drop the resale price... Can you imagine the cops? "I'm not going to test fire it!!!" Heck of a mental image of him getting it in there and how he planned on getting it out. My guess is he spent some time in prison before and was "loosened up" a little bitduring that stay. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PiLFy 3 #163 January 18, 2012 "As opposed to all those *wonderful* facts you gave in your reasoning, I suppose?" I made my points plain enough. If you want to argue w/the majority of the gun establishment? Knock yourself out. "You didn't explicitly say it, no... but you certainly alluded to it." No, I didn't allude to it, either. That was you trolling again. "Given the reasoning you're using for your statements, you certainly didn't seem to learn much in your life around guns." Your opinion is duly noted... "And the cop shot himself because his finger was in the trigger guard. Thanks for disproving your own point within a single paragraph, it saves me the trouble." This is the incident I think you were trying to refer to before you screwed it up: "Now, remember children, I'm the only one in this room who is specially trained to handle guns." BANG!! It's a funny vid on Youtube. The guy got sloppy clearing his weapon. He thought he ejected the round in the chamber. He did follow the rest of the proper procedure by intentionally squeezing the trigger, though. It doesn't disprove a thing regarding Glocks. It only further proves that you're a loud-mouthed Troll, grasping for straws. "Most people realize that a comparison of weight is....a comparison of weight." That wasn't your original intent. You tried to negate the benefits of the Glock designs by focusing on empty weights, alone. You missed. "Sounds like someone's upset that their Glock got dissed. Get over it." I have no Glock tattoos on my body. If a better design comes along. I'll give it a fair chance. What it sounds like, is you came up empty in your arguments, & you don't like it. Frankly, I couldn't care less if you continue to jaw all night long on your keyboard. Your MO is well-known on these boards. I remain thoroughly unimpressed w/you. Get over yourself. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #164 January 18, 2012 QuoteQuoteAs opposed to all those *wonderful* facts you gave in your reasoning, I suppose? I made my points plain enough. If you want to argue w/the majority of the gun establishment? Knock yourself out. You made ONE claim that had any sort of basis in reality, and that was weight - which had been addressed upthread. Trying to lend weight to your opinion by claiming it's "the majority of the gun establishment" is just lame. QuoteQuoteYou didn't explicitly say it, no... but you certainly alluded to it. No, I didn't allude to it, either. That was you trolling again. "Most people have no business carrying a single-action semi, anyway" "Most police forces won't allow them for that reason." "if most people give themselves an honest evaluation. They'll decide that carrying a single-action 1911 probably isn't the best choice for them" No, you certainly *weren't* trying to make a claim that it was unsuitable for the general public, at all... QuoteQuoteGiven the reasoning you're using for your statements, you certainly didn't seem to learn much in your life around guns. Your opinion is duly noted... Two manual safeties that block the movement of the hammer over one that blocks the movement of the trigger. You're saying the one safety is better. Looks like I've got facts on my side vs. opinion on yours. QuoteQuoteAnd the cop shot himself because his finger was in the trigger guard. Thanks for disproving your own point within a single paragraph, it saves me the trouble. This is the incident I think you were trying to refer to before you screwed it up: "Now, remember children, I'm the only one in this room who is specially trained to handle guns." BANG!! It's a funny vid on Youtube. The guy got sloppy clearing his weapon. He thought he ejected the round in the chamber. He did follow the rest of the proper procedure by intentionally squeezing the trigger, though. It doesn't disprove a thing regarding Glocks. It only further proves that you're a loud-mouthed Troll, grasping for straws. It proves that something gets in the trigger guard, the Glock goes off...something that *can't* happen with the 1911, as both the manual safety AND the grip safety have to be deactivated. Nice PA, btw. QuoteQuoteMost people realize that a comparison of weight is....a comparison of weight." That wasn't your original intent. You tried to negate the benefits of the Glock designs by focusing on empty weights, alone. You missed. Impressive telepathy attempt - completely WRONG, but impressive nonetheless. In fact, it was an argument *against* the 1911 due to it's weight, which *does* make a difference for concealed carry - you need a sturdier belt for a heavier gun. QuoteI have no Glock tattoos on my body. If a better design comes along. I'll give it a fair chance. Me too - that's why I carry an M&P 9mm instead of a 1911. It's light and higher capacity, even it is is a bit harder to conceal due to being thicker than the 1911. QuoteWhat it sounds like, is you came up empty in your arguments, & you don't like it. What the discussion *proves* is that your arguments were empty in the first place. QuoteFrankly, I couldn't care less if you continue to jaw all night long on your keyboard. Your MO is well-known on these boards. I remain thoroughly unimpressed w/you. Get over yourself. And *another* PA? My, you *are* distressed that I didn't 'respect your authoritay', aren't you? Take your own advice.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #165 January 18, 2012 Quote "Most people have no business carrying a single-action semi, anyway" "Most police forces won't allow them for that reason." "if most people give themselves an honest evaluation. They'll decide that carrying a single-action 1911 probably isn't the best choice for them" No, you certainly *weren't* trying to make a claim that it was unsuitable for the general public, at all... No, this was your misunderstanding of what "most people" means. It's not the same as the general public. He's stating that those who choose to use the 1911 have to do more training and maintain higher currency to do so as responsible owners. Most people (Americans) have no business with a manual transmission vehicle. Most jumpers have no business with a wing loading over 1.2. Etc. The 1911 is definitely one of the worst choices (beats out the Desert Eagle!) for runners. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #166 January 18, 2012 QuoteThe 1911 is definitely one of the worst choices (beats out the Desert Eagle!) for runners. Never claimed it wasn't - *way* too heavy, for starters.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #168 January 18, 2012 Quote snicker. Diabetes is just too slow - I can't recommend CCS (concealed carry of snickers) as a defensive tactic. Seriously, though, for a runner? A compact gun - something like an M&P 9mm compact or a baby Glock (G26, I think?) carried in a fanny pack - they're carrying water already, right? Snub 38 would be the last choice - they're harder to shoot accurately and slower to reload, but if I *did* use one I'd stoke it with 158grn LSWC-HP +P (lead, semi-wadcutter hollow point)Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 7 #169 January 18, 2012 Snub 38 would be the last choice - they're harder to shoot accurately and slower to reload, but if I *did* use one I'd stoke it with 158grn LSWC-HP +P (lead, semi-wadcutter hollow point) Quote ~I'd disagree on all points... The accuracy is certainly within needed parameters for a defense weapon, and one would need to train equally with either an auto or wheel gun. The people I've taught to shoot tend to do better with a revolver in the beginning, I'd say it's much easier to learn to shoot well...'especially' when talking compact weapons. Slower to reload may be an issue if you're talking an extended shoot-out with several perps, but if you can't 'resolve' an urban situation in 5 shots or less you probably should have been carrying a shotgun... 'Real world', when/if an auto finds itself being a CC choice, I never have additional magazines or loose ammo with me anyway. However, I am pretty quick with a speed loader if needed, but like an extra mag, it's just more to carry. Again, if in a situation where you need a box or two of ammunition, should have brought a different gun. For ammo in a snubby, a heavy bullet is hard to get going fast enough to see results like you would in a longer barrel, a fast moving 125 gr. SJH is pretty tough to beat... ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #170 January 18, 2012 Quote Snub 38 would be the last choice - they're harder to shoot accurately and slower to reload, but if I *did* use one I'd stoke it with 158grn LSWC-HP +P (lead, semi-wadcutter hollow point) Quote ~I'd disagree on all points... The accuracy is certainly within needed parameters for a defense weapon, and one would need to train equally with either an auto or wheel gun. I didn't say they were inherently inaccurate, I said that they are harder to shoot accurately. Snubbies have a *very* short sight radius, which magnifies the slightest misalignment of the sights. Add the heavy trigger weight, and it's no wonder why trainers say it's harder to shoot a snubby accurately. Putting a set of Crimson Trace grips on is a night/day difference, though...as long as conditions are amenable to seeing the dot. Quote The people I've taught to shoot tend to do better with a revolver in the beginning, I'd say it's much easier to learn to shoot well...'especially' when talking compact weapons. I'd say it's easier to learn the manual of arms for a revolver. Quote Slower to reload may be an issue if you're talking an extended shoot-out with several perps, but if you can't 'resolve' an urban situation in 5 shots or less you probably should have been carrying a shotgun... I've heard that line before...the logical conclusion, of course, is "then why not a single shot?" Everyong likes to *think* they're Deadeye Dick, but the reality is that, absent consistent practice, they're likely to miss more than they hit. Quote 'Real world', when/if an auto finds itself being a CC choice, I never have additional magazines or loose ammo with me anyway. Personal choice - I carry a reload. Quote However, I am pretty quick with a speed loader if needed, but like an extra mag, it's just more to carry. True....and just like the CC in the first place, while we *hope* we never need it, it's *priceless* if you do. Quote Again, if in a situation where you need a box or two of ammunition, should have brought a different gun. Stretching it a bit far, aren't we? In converse, best make sure you don't miss any shots and don't run into the type of guy that soaked up a full cylinder of full-house 357 and was still fighting. Quote For ammo in a snubby, a heavy bullet is hard to get going fast enough to see results like you would in a longer barrel, a fast moving 125 gr. SJH is pretty tough to beat... The 158 +P is pretty well regarded overall, and they make snubby versions of SD ammo. I wouldn't turn my nose up at a +P 125 SJHP though. Dammit, twardo...now you've got me looking at ammo comparisons for the 38...that Speer 135gr +P GDHP looks pretty nice... Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
matthewcline 0 #171 January 18, 2012 http://www.flashbangholster.com/Flashbang_Holster/Welcome.html Might not be the best option, but an option. MattAn Instructors first concern is student safety. So, start being safe, first!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steve1 5 #172 January 18, 2012 Any suggestions on how to best to carry a medium sized auto that is concealed. Would a shoulder holster be the best. I imagine this too is something a person would have to experiment with. It seems like those belt, fanny packs, have a zipper to fool with. I wonder how fast you could get a weapon out when you have gloves or mittens on. When the element of surprise is with the attacker. I was also wondering when you could legally point a gun at someone. My brother told me a story of how a retired police officer pulled out a gun in Oregon. He was out camping, and had three guys give him a hard time. He felt threatened by three men, who he was arguing with. He pulled out his weapon. He got ten years for each guy he pointed his pistol at. So, here's this retired police officer in prison, hoping noone finds out he was once a policeman. So that noone will kill him in the Pen. I don't want to spend my retirement like that. What a nightmare! Can you legally pull a gun on someone who is trying to rough you up. My brother taught shoot, don't shoot scenarios in the police academy. I'll have to have him give me some training, next time I see him.... I tried to pen my brother down with this question once....He said it depends a lot on your sex, age, health, and situation. Probably too what state you live in, and their laws. So, I'm still wondering on that.... One last question....Is there a good solvent for removing lead. I imagine the standard Hoppes isn't much good. I sometimes use a copper solvent, and wire brush, on my rifles. I wonder how that would work on lead fouling.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 2 #173 January 18, 2012 I take it the three guys were available to testify. Let's put it this way: Lime is good for more than just putting into a bottle of Corona. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steve1 5 #174 January 18, 2012 I take it, that pulling a gun is okay, as long as you don't point it at someone. We were antelope hunting, several years back. Another guy, myself, and our wives were hunting. We pulled down into a valley to camp for the night. There were no signs up saying that we couldn't go down there. We probably should have checked better. Sometimes it's hard to tell where public land ends and private starts. At any rate, a jeep followed us down into this drainage. It had an open top with roll bars, and a canvas tarp covering the back. It pulled up with the canvas tarp facing us. Next thing you know, this idiot throws open the canvas. He's sitting there with the butt of his AR-15 on his hip, with the muzzle pointing in the air. John Wayne couldn't have done this any better. Another guy was driving. There sat, a stupid looking kid, with his finger on the trigger. You could tell he was loving every second of this....I felt like grabbing him out of the back of that jeep, and giving him a good thrashing.... Supposedly, we were on private land, and they were kicking us off. We took our ass chewing and left... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #175 January 18, 2012 QuoteAny suggestions on how to best to carry a medium sized auto that is concealed. Would a shoulder holster be the best. I imagine this too is something a person would have to experiment with. Shoulder holsters are an option, but they can be harder to dress around. There's also the *disadvantage* that you're "muzzling" anyone standing behind you. QuoteIt seems like those belt, fanny packs, have a zipper to fool with. I wonder how fast you could get a weapon out when you have gloves or mittens on. When the element of surprise is with the attacker. Mittens would be a no-go, gloves would work. The fanny packs designed for guns usually have some sort of 'quick rip' design so that you can get them open quicker/easier. QuoteI was also wondering when you could legally point a gun at someone. My brother told me a story of how a retired police officer pulled out a gun in Oregon. He was out camping, and had three guys give him a hard time. He felt threatened by three men, who he was arguing with. He pulled out his weapon. He got ten years for each guy he pointed his pistol at. The *general* concept is that you have to be in fear of your life or gross bodily injury. That said, there are limitations and laws differ between states. The attacker(s) have to have demonstrated: 1. Ability: They must have the ability to do harm. Multiple attackers certainly *do* meet that criteria. 2. Opportunity: They have to have the opportunity to do harm. As a generality, this boils down to proximity. If they are 50 feet away, they do not have the opportunity absent ranged weapons. If they are 20 feet away, they have much more of an opportunity. 3. Jeopardy: Would a 'prudent and reasonable person' believe that they are in danger? Many times, this is the hardest of the 3 criteria to prove. Your brother's friend *certainly* should have known this and been able to articulate his reasoning.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
