popsjumper 2 #76 January 11, 2012 QuoteQuoteQuoteJust FYI Concealed is not your only option if you decide on a full frame handgun...Open Carry is legal in Montana. I agree, open carry is much more of a deterent. No, not really. With OC, the criminals know *exactly* who is armed and who is not. With CC, they don't know who *might* be armed. Well, Mike. You're off base on this one when you say "No, not really." Think... You're a criminal. Do I hit the a) guy with the visible gun on his hip, or do I hit the b) guy that doesn't have the visible gun on his hip? A smart criminal (oxymoron maybe?) would choose the second potential victim I would think. The visible gun on the hip is much more of a deterrent than the hidden one.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
winsor 236 #77 January 11, 2012 QuoteQuoteQuoteJust FYI Concealed is not your only option if you decide on a full frame handgun...Open Carry is legal in Montana. I agree, open carry is much more of a deterent. No, not really. With OC, the criminals know *exactly* who is armed and who is not. With CC, they don't know who *might* be armed. When Indiana Jones pulled his pistol on Belloc, he then found everyone else in the cafe pointing a firearm at him. After a gunshot is heard during the concert, Buckaroo Banzai and the Hong Kong Cavaliers immediately break out a massive amount of previously undetected firepower. Open carry is like advertising that you have a great hand during a poker tournament. Concealed carry avoids betting the ranch right off the top. If you can run away without an assailant ever being aware that you had lethal force available, so much the better. When your only option is to clear leather, the issue is very much in doubt. When possible, keep it out of sight and out of the equation. Never bluff, and shoot to stop if absolutely necessary. BSBD, Winsor Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #78 January 11, 2012 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteJust FYI Concealed is not your only option if you decide on a full frame handgun...Open Carry is legal in Montana. I agree, open carry is much more of a deterent. No, not really. With OC, the criminals know *exactly* who is armed and who is not. With CC, they don't know who *might* be armed. Well, Mike. You're off base on this one when you say "No, not really." Think... You're a criminal. Do I hit the a) guy with the visible gun on his hip, or do I hit the b) guy that doesn't have the visible gun on his hip? A smart criminal (oxymoron maybe?) would choose the second potential victim I would think. The visible gun on the hip is much more of a deterrent than the hidden one. You're talking specific instances, I'm talking deterrence as a generality. But let's go with your scenario - the crook is in the store, waving his gun around and sees the gun on YOUR hip. *BOOM* - you're dead.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wolfriverjoe 1,523 #79 January 12, 2012 QuoteI'm learning a lot from all the postings on this. I once thought of getting a 22 magnum in a pistol. With that short of a barrel wouldn't there be too much muzzle flash and unburned powder? I like the reliability and simplicity of a revolver...but that trigger pull in double action is awful...I like an automatics light pull. On my S&W auto, the safety is a real pain to reach, (with the thumb of my shooting hand). I've got in the habit of using my supporting hand (thumb) to manipulate the safety, and slide release. If you shoot one handed that wouldn't work though... The muzzle flash and unburned powder aren't that big of an issue in the 22 mag. Nowhere like with a 357 mag. There just isn't that much powder to begin with. It can be a viable carry caliber if you understand it's limitations. The reliablity and simplicity of a revolver is traded off against the double action trigger pull. Same with a lot of the "Duty" automatics. Many have no external safety (the "Slick Slide" models) the trade for the simplicity is a long, heavier trigger pull. If you want a light, short single action trigger you are going to have to learn to manipulate a manual thumb safety. The tradeoff for the trigger pull is a more complex gun to learn to operate. Safety location is a personal preference. With proper training, the slide mounted safety can be manipulated with the shooting hand (as long as your hands are big enough). I personally don't like them. I want a safety mounted low on the frame, where I can reach it with my shooting thumb without changing my grip. That means the S&W, Beretta and a few others are not my choice. That's fine. There are others that suit my requirements. Size and weight of the gun is a similar tradeoff. The heavier the gun, the bigger the gun (as long as it fits your hand well) the easier it is to shoot. Lower percieved recoil, easier to hold steady, ect. The tradeoff is that a big heavy gun is harder to conceal, and a lot more effort to carry. And again, caliber is a tradeoff. Larger calibers do more damage, but are more difficult to shoot, and require a heavier gun. Those are considerations you need to find your best fit for. Nobody else can decide what's best for you."There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy "~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vanair 0 #80 January 12, 2012 I agree concealed is better. Watch sempercool.com video of him in a shootout with robbers. I read the book, very good. I agree that if he had a gun on his hip the robber would have shot him right away. He was lucky, in his book it's revealed that there were 4 of them and they were planing on killing him, having brought a body bad in one of their 2 vehicles. Semper Fi. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #82 January 12, 2012 QuoteQuoteQuoteJust FYI Concealed is not your only option if you decide on a full frame handgun...Open Carry is legal in Montana. I agree, open carry is much more of a deterent. No, not really. With OC, the criminals know *exactly* who is armed and who is not. With CC, they don't know who *might* be armed. Criminals will always seek out the easiest target. Seeing one person armed and another one unarmed, it's more likely they will go for the easiest score. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #83 January 12, 2012 QuoteYou're talking specific instances, I'm talking deterrence as a generality. Well, no I didn't intend to address any specific instance. QuoteBut let's go with your scenario - the crook is in the store, waving his gun around and sees the gun on YOUR hip. *BOOM* - you're dead. No, YOU are addressing a specific instance. An instance where "deterrent" doesn't apply. In your example, the armed robbery had already started. Your weapon, in sight or not, had no effect on his decision to rob because he had already made the decision, initiated the act, and the act was already in-process when your wepaon was spotted. Let's back it up where "deterrent does apply... The guy makes a plan to rob with a gun...he walks in and he sees your open carry. What's more likely.... He sees your open carry and a) decides to abandon ship b) decides to continue on with his plan and pull his piece If he chooses a), THAT'S "deterrent". If he chooses b), the guy is a dumbass and you may or may not be free to put him down. If he does not see your concealed carry, he chooses option b)...where's the "deterrent"? On top of that, as an aside, this is a bad situation because he has the drop on you and you might have to pull off some Wyatt Earp or Dirty Harry trick to get on top of it. That may or may not work out so good. Where is my logic wrong? Man...Merriam-Webster was a total waste for the definition of deterrent. So, "deter": -To prevent or discourage from acting, as by means of fear or doubt:My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #84 January 12, 2012 QuoteCriminals will always seek out the easiest target. Seeing one person armed and another one unarmed, it's more likely they will go for the easiest score. Just as simple as that! The trouble I see with concealed is that, of the two situations, YOU are more likely to be that target and the guy pulls on you first. Now what? Do you cave as if you had no weapon at all? Do you attempt to shoot him before he shoots you? Yes, situational awareness comes into play.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #85 January 12, 2012 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteJust FYI Concealed is not your only option if you decide on a full frame handgun...Open Carry is legal in Montana. I agree, open carry is much more of a deterent. No, not really. With OC, the criminals know *exactly* who is armed and who is not. With CC, they don't know who *might* be armed. Criminals will always seek out the easiest target. Seeing one person armed and another one unarmed, it's more likely they will go for the easiest score. Or they shoot the guy with the visible gun in the back of the head as they come up from behind. Nobody robs a store that they see a cop in, but they also know that the cop has backups in the cruiser out front, or a radio call away at worst. That's a *much* different situation than Joe OC walking up the aisle of the store while the robbery is going down. OC *can* act as a specific deterrence, but can also mark you as a target to a criminal. CC acts as a general deterrence and doesn't set you up as Casualty #1 on the police report if things go south.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #86 January 12, 2012 QuoteThat's a *much* different situation than Joe OC walking up the aisle of the store while the robbery is going down. Yes. Agreed. The OC was not a deterrent at all in that case. Again, deterrent doesn't apply there. That's a much different situation than OC being a deterrent, too. Same could be said for a uniform walking down the aisle. Surely you're not suggesting cops would be better served by concealing? QuoteOC *can* act as a specific deterrence, but can also mark you as a target to a criminal. CC acts as a general deterrence and doesn't set you up as Casualty #1 on the police report if things go south. Yes, agreedMy reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #87 January 12, 2012 QuoteWhat's more likely.... He sees your open carry and a) decides to abandon ship b) decides to continue on with his plan and pull his piece If he chooses a), THAT'S "deterrent". For that *specific* incident, yes. You also assume he doesn't have the gun in his hand as he comes in the door. QuoteIf he chooses b), the guy is a dumbass and you may or may not be free to put him down. Or he may just shoot you down instead. QuoteIf he does not see your concealed carry, he chooses option b)...where's the "deterrent"? In that specific instance? None, which is why I said it was a GENERAL deterrent. Is it going to stop the *truly* desperate or committed criminal? No, but the punk kid in the park with a stick is going to think twice before jumping out from behind a tree, when he knows that the couple out for a walk just might be armed. QuoteOn top of that, as an aside, this is a bad situation because he has the drop on you and you might have to pull off some Wyatt Earp or Dirty Harry trick to get on top of it. That may or may not work out so good. He's got the drop on you from the get-go.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #88 January 12, 2012 QuoteQuoteThat's a *much* different situation than Joe OC walking up the aisle of the store while the robbery is going down. Yes. Agreed. The OC was not a deterrent at all in that case. Again, deterrent doesn't apply there. That's a much different situation than OC being a deterrent, too. No, because that is the most likely scenario for a robber to discover an OC carrier...in the midst of a crime. They're going to be looking for the *real* hindrances to their plans....cops. QuoteSame could be said for a uniform walking down the aisle. Surely you're not suggesting cops would be better served by concealing? Nope...the robber knows if there's a cop in the store, there's another one nearby in a cruiser with some heavy metal on-hand. Or, dispatch is waiting for the cop to 'call clear' from the store. QuoteQuoteOC *can* act as a specific deterrence, but can also mark you as a target to a criminal. CC acts as a general deterrence and doesn't set you up as Casualty #1 on the police report if things go south. Yes, agreed That's all the point I was trying to make - I apologize for not being clearer in the initial post on the subject.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #89 January 12, 2012 I'd rather have a "beware of Dog" sign with a dog that barks loud than clipping the dogs vocal chords hoping to surprise the crook. There are scenarios that work both ways. I believe it's less likely I would be a victim with a barking dog. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #90 January 12, 2012 QuoteI'd rather have a "beware of Dog" sign with a dog that barks loud than clipping the dogs vocal chords hoping to surprise the crook. There are scenarios that work both ways. I believe it's less likely I would be a victim with a barking dog. And you're probably right in that respect... unless the criminal is willing to get rid of the dog so he can rob the house. *NOTHING* is going to deter the truly dedicated criminal, (re: North Hollywood shootout) all we can do is try to deter the less dedicated ones. For some, the general possibility of armed response is enough (CC or general police activity). For others, it takes specific examples of armed response (OC or direct police activity/armed guards). Conversely, the highest nail gets hammered first - the police and the OC group are the most obvious threats to the criminal and any shots fired are going to be in their direction.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #91 January 12, 2012 I agree. I'm pretty sure that of all the crimes commited annually that involve the use of a handgun that it's a pretty small percentage in which a shot is fired by the criminal. With the exception of drugged out crack heads and a few nutters, I think most criminals do not want a confrontation. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #92 January 12, 2012 Ok..we just see "deterrent" differently. I see deterrent as preventing an action...not reacting to one Yes, I agree. There are bozos out there who will bust in without looking first and they may run into CC or OC...and you are probably right that the bozos might more likely keep a better eye on, or possibly even shoot, the OC guy. In a case like that, the CC guy will probably have a better chance of ending the situation successfully. Too bad he couldn't deter it in the first place and wound up having to face that decision.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #93 January 12, 2012 QuoteOk..we just see "deterrent" differently. I see deterrent as preventing an action...not reacting to one Can you show me the part that makes you think that, because I wasn't making the case of a 'proactive deterrent' - I'd like to see where I was unclear. QuoteYes, I agree. There are bozos out there who will bust in without looking first and they may run into CC or OC...and you are probably right that the bozos might more likely keep a better eye on, or possibly even shoot, the OC guy. Yes - unfortunately, something like that happened just last month. link QuoteToby Smith Jr. is accused of stealing Blaine Tyler's gun inside a gas station last week and fatally shooting him after Tyler chased Smith inside the store. Admittedly, it's a 'man bites dog' type of incident, but it proves that it *can* happen. QuoteIn a case like that, the CC guy will probably have a better chance of ending the situation successfully. Too bad he couldn't deter it in the first place and wound up having to face that decision. True - but there's no guarantee that the robber will see the OC guy and be deterred, either. They're not exactly going to cruise up and down the aisles checking everyone's hip, y'know? *Most* people won't notice the gun at all. Those that do will mostly either assume you're a cop (holster=good guy) or panic and *call* the cops.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #94 January 12, 2012 Quote Ok..we just see "deterrent" differently. I see deterrent as preventing an action...not reacting to one Quote Can you show me the part that makes you think that, because I wasn't making the case of a 'proactive deterrent' - I'd like to see where I was unclear. Show you what makes me think deterrent implies preventing? I thought I included a definition for deter in one of my posts....that where I get it. Or maybe I learned it in junior high school. I dunno. It looks as though you are differentiating before and after by saying 'proactive deterrent' thus implying 'reactive deterrent'. I don't see after-the-fact action as being a deterrent at all. After-the-fact action would be problem resolution. Maybe that's where the confusion lies. Are we arguing semantics here? If so, let's not stretch this out anymore, OK? Quote In a case like that, the CC guy will probably have a better chance of ending the situation successfully. Too bad he couldn't deter it in the first place and wound up having to face that decision. Quote True - but there's no guarantee that the robber will see the OC guy and be deterred, either. Yes, we agree on something at least. There are always the more-brave-than-smart bozos. And it IS pretty much guaranteed that the bozo won't see the CC guy. Quote They're not exactly going to cruise up and down the aisles checking everyone's hip, y'know? Yeah, I think we already agreed that criminals are bozos. Yes, many of them will do anything at all and yes, it's impossible to deter some of them. Some just don't give a flyin' f*ck. Quote *Most* people won't notice the gun at all. Those that do will mostly either assume you're a cop (holster=good guy) or panic and *call* the cops. Yes, that is a drawback to OC. Would that everyone understood weapons enough to not panic when they see one. My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Coreece 190 #95 January 12, 2012 QuoteYeah, I think we already agreed that criminals are bozos. Well, not if you rob banks, art galleries and casinos...America has shown it's hearty approval through the Hollywood box office... QuoteYes, many of them will do anything at all and yes, it's impossible to deter some of them. Some just don't give a flyin' f*ck. HEY! I resemble that remark...Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #96 January 12, 2012 Quote Quote Ok..we just see "deterrent" differently. I see deterrent as preventing an action...not reacting to one Quote Can you show me the part that makes you think that, because I wasn't making the case of a 'proactive deterrent' - I'd like to see where I was unclear. Show you what makes me think deterrent implies preventing? I thought I included a definition for deter in one of my posts....that where I get it. Or maybe I learned it in junior high school. I dunno. It looks as though you are differentiating before and after by saying 'proactive deterrent' thus implying 'reactive deterrent'. I don't see after-the-fact action as being a deterrent at all. After-the-fact action would be problem resolution. Maybe that's where the confusion lies. Are we arguing semantics here? If so, let's not stretch this out anymore, OK? We may be...I'm really not sure what series of statements you're referring to with this. Quote Quote In a case like that, the CC guy will probably have a better chance of ending the situation successfully. Too bad he couldn't deter it in the first place and wound up having to face that decision. Quote True - but there's no guarantee that the robber will see the OC guy and be deterred, either. Yes, we agree on something at least. There are always the more-brave-than-smart bozos. And it IS pretty much guaranteed that the bozo won't see the CC guy. That's true... which *could* give the CC guy an advantage, *IF* the CC guy has the opportunity to act. Of course, the same can be said for an undetected OC guy. Quote Quote They're not exactly going to cruise up and down the aisles checking everyone's hip, y'know? Yeah, I think we already agreed that criminals are bozos. Yes, many of them will do anything at all and yes, it's impossible to deter some of them. Some just don't give a flyin' f*ck. True - those are the ones that end up fighting the cop for his gun. Quote Quote *Most* people won't notice the gun at all. Those that do will mostly either assume you're a cop (holster=good guy) or panic and *call* the cops. Yes, that is a drawback to OC. Would that everyone understood weapons enough to not panic when they see one. Agreed.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #97 January 12, 2012 [rep Quote Yes, many of them will do anything at all and yes, it's impossible to deter some of them. Some just don't give a flyin' f*ck. HEY! I resemble that remark... Well of course you do! You live in Detroit! My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Coreece 190 #98 January 12, 2012 Quote [rep Quote Yes, many of them will do anything at all and yes, it's impossible to deter some of them. Some just don't give a flyin' f*ck. HEY! I resemble that remark... Well of course you do! You live in Detroit! Well, just to be honest...I'm on a little Hiatus to clean up a little misunderstanding, but i should be back soon...Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steve1 5 #99 January 12, 2012 I work in a really tough school. One thing we worry about is having a shooter in the school. It's not unusual for a crazy parent to show up and start shouting four letter words. Sometimes they are drunk. We even had a couple of mothers fight it out in front of the school once. Then there is the worry of a student showing up with a gun. We have a police woman who walks around the school with a pistol on her hip. If a criminal was thinking rationally, which often times they aren't, they would take her out first. In the ten or fifteen minutes that it takes for the police to arrive, they could shoot a lot of people. If a person has an open carry gun, a perp. could pretend not to be a threat. They could move in really close, overpower the person, and take their gun away. For a woman or an old person, it might be easy to get their gun. For that reason, I think a concealed carry might be better. A perp. wouldn't know who was carrying lethal force. But, I agree there are also those times when just seeing a person with a gun, might diffuse the situation. That lady jogger would probably be alive today, if the scumbags had seen her running with a gun on her hip. It all depends on the scenario... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RonD1120 62 #100 January 12, 2012 QuoteQuoteJust FYI Concealed is not your only option if you decide on a full frame handgun...Open Carry is legal in Montana. I agree, open carry is much more of a deterent. I discussed this principle with a Hillsborough County Deputy. His opinion was that if the bad guys see any sign that you may be carrying a firearm, they will take it away from you. He emphasized his statement with, "Don't ever think they won't." However, if the majority of folks on the street are displaying open carry it might be a different story.Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
