Concealed Carry Handgun?

[steve1 5]

Northeast Montana is no longer a safe place to be. There's an oil boom going on. Thousands of people are moving in. A teacher was kidnapped when she went out for a jog several days ago. She was probably raped and murdered. That sort of thing has never happened here.

My wife wants me to get a concealed permit, but I'd like her to get one too. She jogs early on most mornings.

I've never liked the little snub-nosed pistols that you can't hit the broad side of a barn with.

A bigger pistol might be a pain to carry, but I'd like to be able to hit what I aim at too.

I watched Gun Talk on tv the other day. It said that a 1911 45 is probably the easiest gun to shoot, the most accurate, and the most reliable, while having plenty of knock down power. Do you think this is true?

I know Glok's are really popular. It seems like most police carry them. I've never really liked the looks or feel of them, but maybe they will grow on you, once you have one.

I thought I might get a smaller 9mm for the wife.

Maybe a big, bulky, 1911, 45, is too big for concealed carry....It would be a good fight stopper though.

I've got a smaller hand. I heard that you can customize a 1911 to fit a smaller hand.

Those Kimber 45's sure look nice. I know they aren't cheap. There's lot's of cheaper 1911's out there, but I was wondering how they shoot....Some need a lot of custom work....

I can customize a rifle to shoot well, but I'm kind of stupid when it comes to pistols...

Do you know of any good training books or videos for combat shooting?

I'd like to attend a school like Gun Site, but that might cost a fortune....

What are your thoughts are on all this?....

[rushmc 23]

Quote

Northeast Montana is no longer a safe place to be. There's an oil boom going on. Thousands of people are moving in. A teacher was kidnapped when she went out for a jog several days ago. She was probably raped and murdered. That sort of thing has never happened here.

My wife wants me to get a concealed permit, but I'd like her to get one too. She jogs early on most mornings.

I've never liked the little snub-nosed pistols that you can't hit the broad side of a barn with.

A bigger pistol might be a pain to carry, but I'd like to be able to hit what I aim at too.

I watched Gun Talk on tv the other day. It said that a 1911 45 is probably the easiest gun to shoot, the most accurate, and the most reliable, while having plenty of knock down power. Do you think this is true?

I know Glok's are really popular. It seems like most police carry them. I've never really liked the looks or feel of them, but maybe they will grow on you, once you have one.

I thought I might get a smaller 9mm for the wife.

Maybe a big, bulky, 1911, 45, is too big for concealed carry....It would be a good fight stopper though.

I've got a smaller hand. I heard that you can customize a 1911 to fit a smaller hand.

Those Kimber 45's sure look nice. I know they aren't cheap. There's lot's of cheaper 1911's out there, but I was wondering how they shoot....Some need a lot of custom work....

I can customize a rifle to shoot well, but I'm kind of stupid when it comes to pistols...

Do you know of any good training books or videos for combat shooting?

I'd like to attend a school like Gun Site, but that might cost a fortune....

What are your thoughts are on all this?....

Ruger LCP

http://www.google.com/search?q=ruger+lcp&hl=en&source=hp&gbv=2&gs_sm=e&gs_upl=844l4578l0l5437l9l9l0l0l0l0l344l1485l0.3.3.1l7l0&safe=images&oq=ruger+lcp&aq=0&aqi=g10&aql=

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[matthewcline 0]

There are plenty of .40 and .45 cal weapons that fit the smaller hands.

The 1911 has siblings to look, at all in .45, they are smaller and easier to carry for CCW holders.

The Glocks are nice, like you I was unsure of them at first. But over time and through a bit of education I like them now. I also like my S&W Sigma .40VE, some people hate them for the heavy trigger pull, but I am OK with it.

There are so many options out there now. Some ranges have rentals to shoot and that might help.

Matt

An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

[BIGUN 1,486]

Recommendation strictly based on outdoor activities for women:

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/01/15/ruger-lcr-new-38-special-revolver/

When training ladies on how to shoot, do some CQB, home defense, jogging, etc. we use a Ruger Mark III (Standard or Hunter Model) .22 rimfire pistol for target practice... 550 rounds for around $20.00

http://www.ruger.com/products/markIII/index.html

Please don't just buy a weapon, get the ccw and then just carry the pistol. Scenario planning and tactics should be a once a week exercise. Teaching situational awareness is easy... when you're out with her, ask her to look around and say things like, "Three guys just came out of that store with weapons, what do you do?" That can be a daily exercise. (the S/O and I play this game with each other).

Add our "kid got snatched and..." to the scenario and Brother... you do NOT want to be on the wrong side of momma's gun.

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[Gravitymaster 0]

Best protection for your home is a sawed off shotgun. You don't have to aim it in darkness. Just point it in the general direction. The screams of pain will allow the second shot to be more accurate.

[SkyDekker 1,465]

Quote

"Three guys just came out of that store with weapons, what do you do?" That can be a daily exercise. (the S/O and I play this game with each other).

The SO and I play the "holy shit did you see the tits on her" game.

I am so happy that in my life, I don't have to play daily pretend games regarding my quick demise.

[rushmc 23]

Quote

Best protection for your home is a sawed off shotgun. You don't have to aim it in darkness. Just point it in the general direction. The screams of pain will allow the second shot to be more accurate.

For sure

And that is if you have to shoot

There is a very chilling effect when one hears a round being racked into a pump style shot gun

No mistaking that sound

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[rushmc 23]

Quote

Quote

"Three guys just came out of that store with weapons, what do you do?" That can be a daily exercise. (the S/O and I play this game with each other).

The SO and I play the "holy shit did you see the tits on her" game.

I am so happy that in my life, I don't have to play daily pretend games regarding my quick demise.

So, do you review or practice your EP's related to skydiving?

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[BIGUN 1,486]

Quote

Quote

"Three guys just came out of that store with weapons, what do you do?" That can be a daily exercise. (the S/O and I play this game with each other).

The SO and I play the "holy shit did you see the tits on her" game.

I am so happy that in my life, I don't have to play daily pretend games regarding my quick demise.

Maybe you should reconsider your views... http://www.torontopolice.on.ca/sexcrimes/

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[Coreece 190]

Quote

I know Glok's are really popular. It seems like most police carry them. I've never really liked the looks or feel of them

+1

I think a nice little S&W .38 SPL would work fine...I haven't noticed a problem with accuracy...besides, if you have to use it chances are you'll be up close and personal anyway.

btw, they make 'em in pink too! How embarrassing would that be to be shot with a pink gun?

Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are...

[winsor 236]

Quote

Quote

I know Glok's are really popular. It seems like most police carry them. I've never really liked the looks or feel of them

+1

I think a nice little S&W .38 SPL would work fine...I haven't noticed a problem with accuracy...besides, if you have to use it chances are you'll be up close and personal anyway.

btw, they make 'em in pink too! How embarrassing would that be to be shot with a pink gun?

Like parachute systems, the choice should be the one on which you would stake your life.

There is enough anecdotal evidence of successful stops with a .22 and of complete misses with a .44 that the "perfect" choice is a personal thing. Skill and confidence are what prevail in a clutch.

If you wind up leaving the thing at home because it's too big and heavy, it is far from optimal.

If it is well suited to the range, but subject to fumbling in the dark, it should likely be relegated to the range. Simple and effective is the way to go.

A J-frame S&W or its equivalent, plus a lot of practice and defensive training, is a good place to start. It is not overpowered, will not destroy eardrums if fired indoors, does not have enough flash to ruin night vision, and is likely to change an assailant's game plan if on the receiving end.

Again, a defensive firearm is like a reserve parachute - it is good to have it available, but you should plan very carefully to avoid ever having to use it, since it may not be enough to get you out of very serious trouble.


BSBD,

Winsor

[DrewEckhardt 0]

The 1911 probably has the most religious following of any firearm in history. While you should join the flock and buy one (or more) to pay homage to St. John Moses Browning that doesn't make it the right tool for all jobs.

Quote

I watched Gun Talk on tv the other day. It said that a 1911 45 is probably the easiest gun to shoot,

No. Guns like Glock's, the HK P7, and double action revolvers have no manual safety you need to worry about and are therefore easier to use.

A steel framed gun like a full-size 1911 is more likely to function reliably when limp wristed than a light plastic pistol although a revolver is even harder to make malfunction and if it doesn't go off you just pull the trigger again instead of manipulating the slide which isn't always enough.

Quote

the most accurate,

No because affordable 1911s have a lot of slop in the mechanics. An HK P7 has the barrel attached to the frame so that's not an issue. For hundreds of dollars (not thousands) modern designs like the Glock tend to about about twice as accurate.

Quote

and the most reliable,

While 1911s have been tweaked to make them more reliable (my Para Ordnance has a ramped barrel like modern designs) the newer plastic pistols (Glock, HK USP, etc.) originally designed to feed hollow point bullets are more reliable. As much as I like to shoot my Para Ordnance I wouldn't trust it for social work like my HK USP. Revolvers are even more reliable.

Quote

while having plenty of knock down power. Do you think this is true?

No.

Quote

I know Glok's are really popular. It seems like most police carry them. I've never really liked the looks or feel of them, but maybe they will grow on you, once you have one.

They work well and are affordable.

Quote

I've got a smaller hand. I heard that you can customize a 1911 to fit a smaller hand.

But you can do better with a single stack plastic pistol. They can be designed for a smaller/shorter cartridge like .380/9mm/.40 S&W and add less grip circumference because the grip panels are integral to the frame instead of add-ons. Revolver grips can be smaller too.

Quote

I can customize a rifle to shoot well, but I'm kind of stupid when it comes to pistols...

You should fix that. Practical pistol (IPSC, IDPA, your local gun club's monthly all-steel match) is oodles of fun.

[mnealtx 0]

Quote

Northeast Montana is no longer a safe place to be. There's an oil boom going on. Thousands of people are moving in. A teacher was kidnapped when she went out for a jog several days ago. She was probably raped and murdered. That sort of thing has never happened here.

My wife wants me to get a concealed permit, but I'd like her to get one too. She jogs early on most mornings.

I've never liked the little snub-nosed pistols that you can't hit the broad side of a barn with.

Snubs are a great backup gun. For use as a primary, you need to be *well* practiced since the reloads are generally slower. TBH, while I have a 1911 and a snub revolver, the gun I carry is a 9mm S&W M&P.

Quote

I watched Gun Talk on tv the other day. It said that a 1911 45 is probably the easiest gun to shoot, the most accurate, and the most reliable, while having plenty of knock down power. Do you think this is true?

1911's are good guns...but you have to accept the fact that, to a degree, you'll have to be your own gunsmith. Most reliable? No.

Quote

I know Glok's are really popular. It seems like most police carry them. I've never really liked the looks or feel of them, but maybe they will grow on you, once you have one.

I thought I might get a smaller 9mm for the wife.

That's a good choice. There's a lot of possibilities in the polymer world...Glock, HK, Sig, S&W. Modern 9mm defense ammo gives up hardly anything to the standard 357 that was the gold standard for decades.

Quote

Maybe a big, bulky, 1911, 45, is too big for concealed carry....It would be a good fight stopper though.

Shot placement is paramount - you can be carrying a 50 cal Desert Eagle and it won't do a thing for you if you can't hit the target.

Quote

I've got a smaller hand. I heard that you can customize a 1911 to fit a smaller hand.

Those Kimber 45's sure look nice. I know they aren't cheap. There's lot's of cheaper 1911's out there, but I was wondering how they shoot....Some need a lot of custom work....

I can customize a rifle to shoot well, but I'm kind of stupid when it comes to pistols...

Do you know of any good training books or videos for combat shooting?

I'd like to attend a school like Gun Site, but that might cost a fortune....

What are your thoughts are on all this?....

First, get to a range and try the various 'plastic fantastics'. Then, get training. You've got Gunsite out there, Thunder Ranch, and there's plenty of instructors that travel the country putting on classes.

Personal recommendations? Get a 9mm semiauto that you shoot well (Note that I don't say "that fits your hand well", the two do not necessarily equate) and put premium self-defense ammo in it - Federal HST, Ranger-T or similar.

Get training.

Practice

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[mnealtx 0]

Quote

Best protection for your home is a sawed off shotgun. You don't have to aim it in darkness. Just point it in the general direction. The screams of pain will allow the second shot to be more accurate.

Sounds great, but just not true. Even an 18" barrel isn't going to spread the shot column that much - inside of 15 yards, you're still looking at a pattern you can cover with your hand.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[Creep0321 0]

A 4” single stack 1911 is a good concealed carry choice. It’s powerful, easy to shoot, easy to conceal and fits well in small hands. Also easy to conceal in a fanny pack while jogging.

Revolvers however have the plus side of not having to do immediate/remedial action in the case of a malfunction. Simply pull the trigger again and the next round will go down range. Which in an up close and personal, life or death situation could mean the difference between talking to the police, and being carted off in a black bag.

I would also take a look at the 2” Rhino. It is a .357 revolver that sends the round out of the lower chamber of the cylinder, rather than the top. This reduces felt recoil and makes the .357 feel more like a 9mm also allows follow up shots to be on target quicker, and is also easy to conceal.

Jack of all trades.
Military Free Fall Jumpmaster.
USA Static-line Jumpmaster.

[gher 0]

Really, Really Small hands? Walther PPK in .380.

Really Small hands? ParaOrdinance Carry 9.

Smallish Hands--Glock 36. Single Stack magazine in .45 ACP.

[steve1 5]

I bought both my daughters a 38 special revolver. One is a Taurus with fixed sights. I forget the name of the other. It's made in South America too, if I recall. The Taurus is hard to hit with beyond eight feet. At point blank range it might be okay, but it is pretty inaccurate.

I've got another Taurus 22 revovler that shoots great. It's nine shots, but is a tad heavy for a just a 22. I'd like more punch than that.

I like my other daughters 38 special. It shoots quite well for a short barreled pistol. I like those adjustable sights.

I have a 9 mm S&W single stack. The biggest thing I don't like about it is the safety. It's about impossible to take off the safety, with the thumb of your shooting hand. Seconds count, if you are in a gun fight.

It also has quite a bit of slop before the trigger engages. It's okay, once you get used to it. It shoots pretty well.

I know of a new pistol range, in Billings. That's a good idea to try a gun out, before you buy it.

We shot a lot of 1911's in the army. Most were shot out. I'd hate to spend a lot of money customizing one. I would imagine a kimber is very accurate right out of the box.

I'm going to give the Glocks another look. There's got to be a reason, they are so popular....

I've got a short barrelled shotgun for home defense.

[mnealtx 0]

Quote

I bought both my daughters a 38 special revolver. One is a Taurus with fixed sights. I forget the name of the other. It's made in South America too, if I recall. The Taurus is hard to hit with beyond eight feet. At point blank range it might be okay, but it is pretty inaccurate.

As a primary, I don't think I'd go less than a 357 for a revolver, and it would be a Ruger or a S&W, not a Taurus.

38 would be a backup gun.

Quote

We shot a lot of 1911's in the army. Most were shot out. I'd hate to spend a lot of money customizing one. I would imagine a kimber is very accurate right out of the box.

Dude...coming from a 1911 guy....don't. Unless you're willing to spend a couple grand for a semi-custom, you'll end up having to have work done before it's carry-ready.

Quote

I'm going to give the Glocks another look. There's got to be a reason, they are so popular....

They're popular because they're reasonably inexpensive and they require a minimum of maintenance. That said, the newer Gen3 and Gen4 guns have had some extraction/ejection issues.

Check as many different makes/models as you can.

Quote

I've got a short barrelled shotgun for home defense.

Good man.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[matthewcline 0]

As you're seeing there are as many opinions as options.

But the rule, that you're well aware of, matters not the type and caliber of the weapon, but the proficiency.

The 1911 is some thing your trained with and comfortable with, so a nice option is a Range Officer, Commander or model like that.

I liked my 1911 when I had one in the Army. When they took it away and gave me the M-9 (92f) I got good enough with it, I liked it too. Same for when I went from an M-16A1 to an A2 then to the M-4. Practice made me proficient and as I got proficient I was happy with them.

Now for the wife simplicity may be a factor. .38 Special may just be right.

Make an ammo bulk purchase from Lucky Gunner . com and go to the range. have fun, be safe and train well!

Matt

An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

[mnealtx 0]

Quote

The 1911 is some thing your trained with and comfortable with, so a nice option is a Range Officer, Commander or model like that.

And he'll *still* have to spend money to make it carry-ready...unfortunately. Nothing wrong with 45 caliber, but there's nothing wrong with 9mm either. There's very little difference in performance between the various calibers using premium defensive ammo. You're going to get adequate expansion and penetration with any of them.

Check out the M&P series by S&W. The grip angle is the same as the 1911.

Here's an exerpt from an interview with Larry Vickers, a former SF armorer and current pistolsmith and trainer.

Quote

The 1911 is an enthusiast’s pistols. In order to keep that gun running you have to, it’s not optional, you have to become your own armorer to a degree. You have to be able to diagnose and fix minor problems on an end user level. If you’re not willing to sign up for that, frankly you have no business running a 1911 for anything other than occasional recreational shooting. If you’re going to put yourself in harm’s way with that gun and you’re not willing to sign up for that, then you need to avoid it.

I'm not saying the 1911 is bad, but there are better choices out there now for a self defense handgun.

Quote

Now for the wife simplicity may be a factor. .38 Special may just be right.

I *HATE* the automatic assumption that 'the little lady needs a little revolver'. (Not meant at you specifically, Matthew)

With no experience, it makes more sense to get her into a pistol with a 6 lb trigger rather than a 38 snubby with a 9-12 lb trigger. It's easier to shoot and she's less likely to yank the gun off-target.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[matthewcline 0]

Mike,

I was referencing his OP.

The 1911 in Steve's hands will be just fine. Maybe I am not following what your saying with "Make it carry ready".

You quoted Vicker's but Hanely (sp) says the opposite, both come from the SOF world and both carried 1911's and Glocks. They each have an opinion.

In the end this is just us giving advice, or expressing our opinions.

I personally tend to start from what I know then expand out, I was just advising Steve using that theory.

My 1911, S&W Sigma .40, 92F and Glock are all "stock", the only thing I needed to do to get them carry ready, was practice, a lot!

Matt

An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

[DougH 270]

Quote

Ruger LCP

Strongly disagree. Rugers LCP, or Little Copy Pistol, because it is a rip off of a KelTec 380 design, may be fun to target shoot but the 380 round sucks for self defense.

I don't want to get shot by any gun, but if I had to chose I would rather be shot by a 380 than a 45!!!

At the minimum I would go with a 9mm, and the heaviest 9mm self defense round that you gun will shoot reliably and that you shoot accurately.

Go heavy.

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[matthewcline 0]

Quote

Quote

Ruger LCP

Strongly disagree. Rugers LCP, or Little Copy Pistol, because it is a rip off of a KelTec 380 design, may be fun to target shoot but the 380 round sucks for self defense.

I don't want to get shot by any gun, but if I had to chose I would rather be shot by a 380 than a 45!!!

At the minimum I would go with a 9mm, and the heaviest 9mm self defense round that you gun will shoot reliably.

Go heavy.

22's kill just as easy as a 454 Kasul, in trained/practiced hands.

Size only matters if the shots aren't well placed.

What ever Steve gets for his wife and himself, they need to spend the money on the bulk ammo and practice.

Matt

An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

[rushmc 23]

Quote

Quote

Ruger LCP

Strongly disagree. Rugers LCP, or Little Copy Pistol, because it is a rip off of a KelTec 380 design, may be fun to target shoot but the 380 round sucks for self defense.

I don't want to get shot by any gun, but if I had to chose I would rather be shot by a 380 than a 45!!!

At the minimum I would go with a 9mm, and the heaviest 9mm self defense round that you gun will shoot reliably and that you shoot accurately.

Go heavy.

For the most part I agree with you

I was thinking of the fact she was needing it while jogging

Small and effective enough in that situtation IMO

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[mnealtx 0]

Quote

Mike,

I was referencing his OP.

The 1911 in Steve's hands will be just fine. Maybe I am not following what your saying with "Make it carry ready".

Because they're generally not...and I say that as a '1911 guy'. Note that I'm not saying work *always* has to be done, but think about it - if the majority of all 1911s were good to go out of the box, you wouldn't be seeing stuff from Heinie, Nighthawk, Vickers, Baer, Wilson, etc etc etc.

Quote

You quoted Vicker's but Hanely (sp) says the opposite, both come from the SOF world and both carried 1911's and Glocks. They each have an opinion.

Yup...and Vickers was the pistolsmith for SFOD, IIRC, as well as a doing custom 1911 work once he left the military. Now, he's a trainer and shoots Glock a lot.

Quote

In the end this is just us giving advice, or expressing our opinions.

Agreed.

Quote

I personally tend to start from what I know then expand out, I was just advising Steve using that theory.

As was I. I started out carrying a 1911...now I carry an M&P.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706