billvon 3,120
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rehmwa 2
QuoteQuote>So please explain how keeping the status quo will 'resulting in dirtier air' than...the status quo.
It won't, since that's not what happened.
Then you admit that the 'dirtier air' point was bogus? It's a start.
His comment was bogus in that it was phrased falsely - and unnecessarily confrontative as it was a strawman accusation. Regardless, the point he was making (strawman or not) was clear enough and could have been responded to without the semantics pissing contest.
And the, right here, Mike - Bill pretty much owned the silly comment (at least as best as he can) - at that point, you could have just stopped. Or at least just answered the intent of what he was saying rather than the mis-wording of that intent.
But no. you guys always have to try to declare victory.
Now we have a freakin' entire page of tit for tat and more of this semantic childishness, Kallend smells that and dives in, and, now, rush too and we'll have another page of the same stupid crap. With this crowd, it'll never end.
happy?
...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants
rehmwa 2
QuoteAgain, enough with the one liners, everyone.
oh - then nevermind my last
...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants
rushmc 23
More reason NOT to embrace the hysterical EPA
Edited to add
http://junkscience.com/2012/01/05/shocker-chinese-air-pollution-debunks-u-s-epa-junk-science/
which has supporting links
QuoteShocker: Chinese air pollution debunks U.S. EPA junk science
Posted on January 5, 2012 by Steve Milloy
| 1 Comment
The Chinese city of Xi’an has some of the worst air quality in the world. Yet its air is significantly safer than the air in U.S. cities, according to a new study.
And if you have trouble believing that, then you ought to have trouble believing Obama Environmental Protection Agency claims that U.S. ambient air quality is killing tens, if not hundreds of thousands of people per year.
Chinese researchers compared data on air pollution and death rates in Xi’an from 2004 to 2008. In 2006, the World Health Organization ranked Xi’an as having the second worst air pollution in Asia, which means the second worst in the world.
The study was just published online (Jan. 3) in Environmental Health Perspectives.
The city of Xi'an had the second worst air quality in Asia in 2006.
Using the same sort of data and statistical analysis employed by EPA-funded air quality researchers, the Chinese researchers reported having statistically correlated every 10 microgram per cubic meter’s (μg/m3) worth of fine particulate matter (soot or PM2.5) in Xi’an’s air with a 0.2% increase in the city’s death rate.
While that sounds like a result in the statistical noise range — and it is as the mean daily death toll in Xi’an is only about 26.2 — we’re going to overlook that normally fatal flaw and, instead, momentarily embrace the result so that we can compare it with what EPA-funded researchers claim about U.S. cities.
In a 2009 study of 112 U.S. cities, EPA-funded researchers reported that every 10 μg/m3 worth of PM2.5 correlated with about a 1.0% increase in death rate. Once again this is, in reality, statistical noise. But in the fantasy world of EPA air quality science it is five times greater than what Chinese researchers reported from the second dirtiest city in the world.
But there’s more. Just how dirty is the air in Xi’an?
As measured by the Chinese researchers, the air in Xi’an is, on average, 9-10 times more polluted in terms of PM2.5 than the median PM2.5 levels of the two most polluted cities in the 112-city study (Rubidoux, CA and Los Angeles, CA).
And that dirty Chinese air, according to EPA scientific practice, is safer than U.S. air by a factor of five. This is shocking since if air pollution really was deadly, one would expect to see this phenomena operating in high gear in the respiratory horror story that Xi’an should be.
Keep in mind that EPA chief Lisa Jackson testified to Congress on Sep. 22, 2011 that:
Particulate matter [i.e., PM2.5] causes premature death. It doesn’t make you sick. It’s directly causal to dying sooner than you should.
Leaving the fantasy land of EPA air quality science and returning to the real-world, however, clean U.S. air is axiomatically not more dangerous than filthy Chinese air and so some sort of explanation of these results is required.
The scientific and medical reality is that PM2.5 — even as high as it is in China — does not kill or hasten death.
PM 2.5 was such a public health problem in the U.S., in fact, that no one knew about it until EPA-funded researchers invented it in 1993 with the so-called “Six Cities Study” — 30 years after the Clean Air Act was enacted.
Concern for PM2.5 — the primary and virtually sole justification for recent costly EPA regulation like the Cross-State Air Pollution Rule (CSAPR) and the Mercury and Toxics Standard (MATS) — has been entirely manufactured and ruthlessly exploited by the EPA for almost 20 years.
The agency has been able to get away with this scam because it has cleverly hidden key data with a clique of private researchers in academic institutions who are beyond Congressional and Freedom of Information Act reach. (emphasis mine)
Obtaining the EPA data may no longer be so important for debunking purposes, however, given the emerging reality in China.
Edited to add
http://junkscience.com/2012/01/05/shocker-chinese-air-pollution-debunks-u-s-epa-junk-science/
which has supporting links
"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln
SkyDekker 1,465
I just have a hard time taking anything Steve Milloy claims as credible.
rushmc 23
QuoteI just have a hard time taking anything Steve Milloy claims as credible.
Nothing wrong with that
but the info is hard to ignore
The supporting links are included in his posts
"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln
Quote
| 1 Comment
The Chinese city of Xi’an has some of the worst air quality in the world.
Let me put it this way - the air in Xian is so bad, my eyes hurt.
However, you don't see an integrity problem with using Chinese research that is clearly propaganda to attack research done here?
DanG 1
Your article's conclusions are statistically, and common-sensically, flawed. The author is trying to compare an absolute increase in particulate matter (increase of 10 ppm) to a relative increase in mortality (0.26% vs. 1.0%). He makes the assumption that the two are linearly related, which is not at all what anyone, including the EPA, claims.
- Dan G
- Dan G
rushmc 23
QuoteYour article's conclusions are statistically, and common-sensically, flawed. The author is trying to compare an absolute increase in particulate matter (increase of 10 ppm) to a relative increase in mortality (0.26% vs. 1.0%). He makes the assumption that the two are linearly related, which is not at all what anyone, including the EPA, claims.
Hmmm
http://www.c-span.org/Events/EPA-Regulations-Discussed-at-House-Energy-Committee/10737424255/
"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln
rushmc 23
QuoteQuote
| 1 Comment
The Chinese city of Xi’an has some of the worst air quality in the world.
Let me put it this way - the air in Xian is so bad, my eyes hurt.
However, you don't see an integrity problem with using Chinese research that is clearly propaganda to attack research done here?
Clearly?
How so?
This is propaganda?
http://junksciencecom.files.wordpress.com/2012/01/ehp-1-1103671.pdf
"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln
rushmc 23
This is also of interest
http://junksciencecom.files.wordpress.com/2012/01/zanobettischwartz2009.pdf
http://junksciencecom.files.wordpress.com/2012/01/zanobettischwartz2009.pdf
"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln
DanG 1
What does that link (EPA Administrator testifies on Capitol Hill) have to do with what I posted?
- Dan G
- Dan G
rushmc 23
QuoteWhat does that link (EPA Administrator testifies on Capitol Hill) have to do with what I posted?
Watch it and then read your post again
"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln
rushmc 23
Just in case the link does not work for you
a partial transcript
a partial transcript
QuoteMarkey: … How would you compare [particulate matter regulation] to the fight against cancer?
Jackson: Yeah, I was briefed not too long ago. If we could reduce particulate matter to healthy levels, it would have the same impact as finding a cure for cancer in our country.
Markey: Can you say that sentence one more time?
Jackson: Yes sir, If — um — we could reduce particulate matter to levels that are health, we could have identical impacts to finding a cure for cancer.
"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln
DanG 1
QuoteThis is also of interest
http://junksciencecom.files.wordpress.com/...ettischwartz2009.pdf
Sure is. Conclusions:
QuoteWe conclude that our analysis showed an increased risk or mortality for all and specific causes associated with PM2.5, and the risks are higher than what was previously observed for PM10. In addition, course particles are also associated with more deaths.
- Dan G
rushmc 23
QuoteQuoteThis is also of interest
http://junksciencecom.files.wordpress.com/...ettischwartz2009.pdf
Sure is. Conclusions:QuoteWe conclude that our analysis showed an increased risk or mortality for all and specific causes associated with PM2.5, and the risks are higher than what was previously observed for PM10. In addition, course particles are also associated with more deaths.
which debunks your first post here
"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln
DanG 1
I dunno, maybe she's statistically accurate. Seems hard to believe, but if the number of deaths attributed to particulates are the same those attributed to cancer, then she's correct.
- Dan G
- Dan G
DanG 1
Quotewhich debunks your first post here
What? I don't think you understood my first post.
I also am amazed, pleasantly, that you are posting links to studies that show air pollution is a serious health problem. Good for you.
- Dan G
rushmc 23
QuoteI dunno, maybe she's statistically accurate. Seems hard to believe, but if the number of deaths attributed to particulates are the same those attributed to cancer, then she's correct.
and you touch on my real point here as I dont know either
But the claims of all the deaths are not really based on any science
Just out of the air claims
Again
I want clean air as much as anybody
But it looks like we are moving past that
It is an agenda driven policy that is the end goal IMO
"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln
rushmc 23
QuoteQuotewhich debunks your first post here
What? I don't think you understood my first post.
I also am amazed, pleasantly, that you are posting links to studies that show air pollution is a serious health problem. Good for you.
What I am posting are the claims that dont match up with what is happening
I posted them to show you they ARE making the claims you say they didnt
"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln
rushmc 23
QuoteQuotewhich debunks your first post here
What? I don't think you understood my first post.
I also am amazed, pleasantly, that you are posting links to studies that show air pollution is a serious health problem. Good for you.
And all that I am posting here are from links provided by the author
"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln
SkyDekker 1,465
QuoteThis is propaganda?
http://junksciencecom.files.wordpress.com/...01/ehp-1-1103671.pdf
Since Steve Milloy has a known history of providing propaganda, I don't think it is very far fetched to assume that anything he posts, claims or provides on his website is to be considered as propaganda as well.
And anyting produced by any official, semi-official or even remotely official chinese organization is full on propaganda, almost by definition.
DanG 1
I really think you should at least read the abstracts of the papers you cite. You're not making any sense.
- Dan G
- Dan G
rushmc 23
QuoteQuoteThis is propaganda?
http://junksciencecom.files.wordpress.com/...01/ehp-1-1103671.pdf
Since Steve Milloy has a known history of providing propaganda, I don't think it is very far fetched to assume that anything he posts, claims or provides on his website is to be considered as propaganda as well.
And anyting produced by any official, semi-official or even remotely official chinese organization is full on propaganda, almost by definition.
Doesnt appear to me the study was done by the Chicoms
"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln
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