Durban climate delegation calls for cutting CO2 emmissions by more than 100%

[billvon 3,120]

>So increased albedo, per se, does not lead to increased warming from CO2.

Agreed. Albedo leads to warming _directly._ A black planet gets warmer than a white planet no matter what the level of greenhouse gas. That's one of the reasons that changes like loss of ice cover, loss of snow and replacement of tundra with shrubs are worrisome - overall warming increases no matter what you do with CO2.

>Rather, longwave IR causes it.

Also agreed. More accurately, longwave IR is one of the many frequencies that can't get back out of the atmosphere, and is thus trapped. All wavelengths are a concern for this, but for the most part, wavelengths that the atmosphere blocks can't get in to begin with, so they can't be "trapped" when they are reflected from high albedo surfaces. Longwave IR is somewhat unique in that respect since shortwave light comes in, gets transformed to longwave (heat) radiation that then cannot escape.

[lawrocket 3]

My thing is that with plants, even though the energy is going in, a heckuva lot of it is being absorbed and stored. WE know this because plants grow that way.

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A black planet gets warmer than a white planet no matter what the level of greenhouse gas.

Unless the energy is converted to mass, which is what the trees do. Taiga canopies are interesting in that due to leaf/needle characteristics they have a high albedo in shortwave IR. Mid-IR they have a lesser albedo, and tiny albedo in the long-IR range.

I believe short-IR (the not-so-bad) has a high albedo, and the albedo decreases along with the increased wavelength. Meaning that leaves reflect Short-IR, absorb some Mid-IR, and absorb lots of Long-IR. But the trees don't boil - they converts the energy to mass, while sequestering CO2. They sequester the heat and CO2.

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longwave IR is one of the many frequencies that can't get back out of the atmosphere, and is thus trapped

Leaves are among the best things for trapping these wavelengths. It's why I'm somewhat skeptical of the whole, "Trees will cause further warming through loss of albedo.' That's assuming that trees don't absorb the heat, which they do and convert the kinetic energy into potential energy.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[billvon 3,120]

>Unless the energy is converted to mass, which is what the trees do.

Even in that case. Keep in mind that no mass is being created by trees*. They're just splitting CO2 into carbon (which they use) and oxygen (which they excrete, which is a good thing from our perspective.) At most some mass comes out of the atmosphere and goes into the ground (i.e. is sequestered) - but no significant energy is being converted to mass in an E=MC^2 sense.

(* - there is a measurable increase in mass from the breaking of the chemical bonds between carbon and oxygen, but it is incredibly small - and is reversed the next time CO2 is created through respiration, fire etc.)

>high albedo in shortwave IR. Mid-IR they have a lesser albedo, and tiny albedo in the
>long-IR range.

That may be (I'll take your word for the respective reflectances) but also keep in mind that the long IR we're talking about comes from blackbody radiation, not from reflection of anything. A higher energy example of this is a light bulb filament. A carbon filament may have a very low visible-light albedo (i.e. reflects very little) but when it's hot enough it radiates a huge amount of visible light.

>I believe short-IR (the not-so-bad) has a high albedo, and the albedo decreases along
>with the increased wavelength. Meaning that leaves reflect Short-IR, absorb some
>Mid-IR, and absorb lots of Long-IR. But the trees don't boil - they converts the energy
>to mass, while sequestering CO2. They sequester the heat and CO2.

The heat is removed through conduction and radiation. (Note that even dead autumn leaves don't boil or burst into flame or anything.)