Only in the middle east...

[Coreece 190]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=My0HQ0QkGLQ&feature=related

Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are...

[popsjumper 2]

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Okay, I'll bite: the new covenant seems to be a good cop out for Christians at first glance, but while it (for example) can be used as an excuse to not kill wiccans, people that work on Saturdays, obnoxious teens, adulterers and homos, that doesn't mean that killing those people is immoral. It only means that killing people that wiccans, people that work on Saturdays, obnoxious teens, adulterers and homos is the right thing under certain circumstances.

And since you don't have to kill to qualify as a bigot, you still have to be a bigot to be a good Christian. You also have to accept all other things that God did or God ordered. Genocide for instance.

If this post is serious in intent, I'm flabbergasted that you are so off the mark. Just flabbergasted.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[Kennedy 0]

I guess you haven't read his posts in other threads. And no, he isn't joking.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[Marinus 0]

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If this post is serious in intent, I'm flabbergasted that you are so off the mark. Just flabbergasted.

If I'm so off the mark I'm sure you've no trouble whatsoever incorrecting me.

If you don't reject certain parts of the bible on moral grounds, which would made you an heretic, you condone those parts. (or you're indifferent to it) This includes, for example the genocide on the Amelekites. which was so complete that even the animals were exterminated. This genocide was of course ordered by God himself. bThis doesn't mean you approve of all other genocides, or even that you approve of genocides in our day and age, but it means that according to you genocide is sometimes acceptable or even ethically sound.

[popsjumper 2]

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...And no, he isn't joking.

Yeah. I know. That's what scares me.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[popsjumper 2]

Question...where did you get your initial sense of "morals"?


Next question...has your sense of morality changed over the years?

Next question...Do you agree that "morality" is subjective; what was once viewed as "moral" may not be viewed as such today?

Last question...Cannot one's religious view change over time?


It appears that you seem to think that a book written, copied, re-copied, edited and amended by humans is a definitive "Word of God." Apparently you have faith in that.

There's that nasty word...faith.


I have no interest in correcting you. I'm simply putting my questions and statements out there as food for thought.

Sometimes, both sides of an argument depend on the same hypothesis with only a difference in interpretation separating them.

In this case, both believers and non-believers are set in their ways saying the Bible is the Word of God.
Funny how both sides depend on that assumption.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[Coreece 190]

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If you don't reject certain parts of the bible on moral grounds, which would made you an heretic, you condone those parts.

God does not need us to forgive, pardon, excuse or approve of him. His judgement is always just regardless of what you think you know...kind of a perk for being God.

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the genocide on the Amelekites. which was so complete that even the animals were exterminated.

No they weren't...did you even read about the Amelekites in scripture or are you just parroting some athiest website?

1 Sam 15
....Saul and the army spared Agag and the best of the sheep and cattle, the fat calves and lambs...

FYI-
Judges 6
Because the power of Midian was so oppressive, the Israelites prepared shelters for themselves in mountain clefts, caves and strongholds. Whenever the Israelites planted their crops, the Midianites, Amalekites and other eastern peoples invaded the country. They camped on the land and ruined the crops all the way to Gaza and did not spare a living thing for Israel, neither sheep nor cattle nor donkeys. They came up with their livestock and their tents like swarms of locusts. It was impossible to count them or their camels; they invaded the land to ravage it.

1 Sam 30
When David and his men reached Ziklag, they found it destroyed by fire and their wives and sons and daughters taken captive. So David and his men wept aloud until they had no strength left to weep.... David fought them from dusk until the evening of the next day, and none of them got away, except four hundred young men who rode off on camels and fled. David recovered everything the Amalekites had taken, including his two wives. Nothing was missing: young or old, boy or girl, plunder or anything else they had taken. David brought everything back. He took all the flocks and herds, and his men drove them ahead of the other livestock, saying, “This is David’s plunder.”

There is more in jdg 3, Ex 17, Dt 25, and 1 Chr4

After 300 years of unprovoked attacks, God finally said enough...

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it means that according to you genocide is sometimes acceptable or even ethically sound.

I think I'll leave that up to God.

Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are...

[Coreece 190]

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There's that nasty word...faith.

"Faith? Oh, I had a girlfriend named Faith...she cheated on me, with a girl named Chastity."

Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are...

[BoogeyMan 0]

The UN Charter, ch VII art 51 allows Israel to fire back, without sanction.
Nothing in the present Charter shall impair the inherent right of individual or collective self-defence if an armed attack occurs against a Member of the United Nations, until the Security Council has taken measures necessary to maintain international peace and security. Measures taken by Members in the exercise of this right of self-defence shall be immediately reported to the Security Council and shall not in any way affect the authority and responsibility of the Security Council under the present Charter to take at any time such action as it deems necessary in order to maintain or restore international peace and security.

The issue of Lebanon control over Iranian controlled Hezbola is a Lebanese problem. If Lebanon doesn't like hebrew arty blasting it's real estate, then Lebanon should get on with controlling its own sovereign territory. Much like the US needs to get a grip on the US/Mexican border.
It is not unbelievable that by complaining to the UN, the Lebanese are screaming rape about hezbola and looking for some larger form of help from the UN.
The religious component here is indeed the "stealth" thrust of this whole thread. You are dead on. Bullseye.

[popsjumper 2]

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There's that nasty word...faith.

"Faith? Oh, I had a girlfriend named Faith...she cheated on me, with a girl named Chastity."

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[Gravitymaster 0]

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There's that nasty word...faith.

"Faith? Oh, I had a girlfriend named Faith...she cheated on me, with a girl named Chastity."

Don't give up Hope.

[popsjumper 2]

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There's that nasty word...faith.

"Faith? Oh, I had a girlfriend named Faith...she cheated on me, with a girl named Chastity."

Don't give up Hope.

We've ALL had Hope at one time or other.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[Marinus 0]

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In this case, both believers and non-believers are set in their ways saying the Bible is the Word of God.
Funny how both sides depend on that assumption.

Well what can I say, I'm a cover2cover apatheist. And unless you picket on funerals with signs that say "God Hates America" or stone people who work on Sunday to death, you'll burn in hell.

As for our side depending on the Bible being meant as the literal Word of God: of course we do. Else you Christians have a Carte Blanche to cherry-pick whatever you like from that pile of books you should consider as the Absolute Truth that fell from Heaven.

[popsjumper 2]

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...you Christians have a Carte Blanche to cherry-pick whatever you like from that pile of books you should consider as the Absolute Truth that fell from Heaven.

Isn't ironic that non-believers do the same cherry-picking?


Isn't ironic that there are, in fact, no absolutes when if comes to religions yet non-believers think that's a reason for denial?

Isn't it ironic that religions of all sorts try to bring people together and the non-believers try to tear them apart from one another...and from each other, too?

What's particularly ironic is the non-believers diatribes against evangelism yet they do the same, and more adamantly so, by so forcefully preaching non-belief.

With respect to politicians...
Isn't it ironic that one could substitute "party politics" for "religion" and apply the same argument that you made? There are Spin Doctors everywhere.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[Marinus 0]

Speaking for myself, I don't really cherry-pick. I actually admit there's some good stuff in the bible too. And while I have an opinion of what a True Christian should believe, I actually like the main-stream watered down versions better. But it's ironic that a non-believer has a cover2cover interpretation of the Bible.

It's ironic btw that you're trying to show your righteousness by generalizing us non-believers. It somehow looses it's shine a bit especially since non-believe isn't always accompanied by a dislike for religion.

Some religions try to bring people together, but Christianity isn't one of those religions. I really don't have a problem with all religions, and not even with many (what I consider to be heretic) versions of Christianity.

[Coreece 190]

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Isn't ironic that non-believers do the same cherry-picking?

Yeah...lol, like when Lucifer twisted scripture to try and convince Jesus to jump off the temple roof without a canopy so as to kill himself!

They reject that Jesus performed miracles and rose from the dead, but whole heartily accept that he was a homophobic closet homosexual that hated harlets, little babies and mismatched clothing fibers.

Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are...

[Coreece 190]

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And while I have an opinion of what a True Christian should believe, I actually like the main-stream watered down versions better....I really don't have a problem with all religions, and not even with many (what I consider to be heretic) versions of Christianity.

The problem here is that you still haven't provided an argument as to why authentic Christianity is dependent on gentile nations having to be governed by Jewish Theocratic Law.

Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are...

[Coreece 190]

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twisted scripture

So I was just sitting on the can taking a shitake and I realized that would be a good name for a rock band...

Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are...

[Coreece 190]

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twisted scripture

So I was just sitting on the can taking a shitake and I realized that would be a good name for a rock band...

*Just talking to myself*

"What kind of a man are you? You're worthless and weak, you do nothing, you are nothing, you're sitting here all day and play that sick, repulsive electric twanger. I carried an M-16 and you, you carry that, that, that guitar...Who are you? Where do you come from? Are you listening to me? What do you want to do with your life?"

Great video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V9AbeALNVkk

Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are...

[Marinus 0]

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authentic Christianity

I think 16th century European Christianity was a lot more "authentic" your 21st century American McDonalds version of it. For most of it's existence the OT was used to condone all kinds of heinous shit, from slavery to witch burnings. Right until the moment normal people (not all of them non-Christians btw) made such things illegal. That's probably one of the reasons Christianity is pretty much a goner in the Western World.

[mnealtx 0]

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That's probably one of the reasons Christianity is pretty much a goner in the Western World.

Do you do *any* sort of research before you post?

Link
"The "Western world" taken as consisting of Europe, North America and Australia-New Zealand remains predominantly Christian: 78.5% in the USA (2002), 77% in Canada (2001), close to 80%[citation needed] in Europe (includes Eastern Orthodoxy in Eastern Europe, not properly part of "Western religion", 32.4% of Europeans are Roman Catholic, 16.2% are Protestant) and 64% in Australia (2006)."

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[popsjumper 2]

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It's ironic btw that you're trying to show your righteousness by generalizing us non-believers.

In light of your "generalizing" believers and religion, yes...yes it is.
I'm flattered. I've never been mentioned in the same sentence with "righteousness" before.

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It somehow looses it's shine a bit especially since non-believe isn't always accompanied by a dislike for religion.

There you go with the "generalizations" again. But that's OK. It's better than the "absolutes" you've been using.

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Some religions try to bring people together, but Christianity isn't one of those religions.

Well, opinion is opinion. You're welcome to yours as long as you don't present it as fact.

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I really don't have a problem with all religions,

I understand that. Your posts, as with many others, seem to indicate a problem with believers....hammering them for believing what they believe, I believe...believe it or not.
(OK too much is too much. )

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[popsjumper 2]

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I carried an M-16 and you, you carry that, that, that guitar...Who are you? Where do you come from? Are you listening to me? What do you want to do with your life?"

OK...now you've gone too far.
Get off my guitar. She is my lover, my reason for life and I handle her with love and affection. I truly believe she is the one thing in the world that is true blue and a path to happiness.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[Marinus 0]

1) we started out with 100% about 1-2 centuries ago, so Christianity is in decline i.e. "a goner"

2) I would really like to see how the got the 80% for Europe. Even if you count all the people who're officially Christian, but couldn't care less about the religion that 80% is a long shot.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Europe

According to this source 52% believe in a God. Believe in a God is essential to be a Christian. Of course this doesn't mean there's 52% Christians in Europe, other religions are theistic too. So Christianity more then halved in a matter of less then 200 years and the steepest decline was in the last couple of decades.

This wikilink also shows only 3 countries were more then 80% of the pop views religion as important. One of those countries is predominantly Islamic. Most of Europe is secularized and you better get used to that because it'll only get better.

[Marinus 0]

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In light of your "generalizing" believers and religion

I didn't know that making a distinction between true Christians and people that have a watered down version of the religion fell in the realm of generalization. In other words, I explicitly say that there are different types of believers.

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It's better than the "absolutes" you've been using.

which absolute(s) are you referring to?

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Well, opinion is opinion.

History however isn't an opinion. You cant just sweep the countless atrocities perpetrated in the name of Christianity under a rug and pretend it never happened. Atrocities aren't a good way to create unity.

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Your posts, as with many others, seem to indicate a problem with believers....hammering them for believing what they believe

Actually, while I do like to bash Christianity to entertain myself, I rather explicitly say that I don't mind certain heretic forms of Christianity. It just isn't true Christianity in my opinion.