DougH 270
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SkyDekker 1,465
QuoteMy argument hasn't changed. The protesters prevented the officers from doing their job by preventing them from leaving.
You chide other people for not agreeing to what they can actually observe on the video.
The cops could clearly leave. The video shows it.
For the rest of your post, I'll redirect you to the last line of my post you quoted.
Quote>It sounds like you have issues with the college admin that called in police.
Yes. The Chancellor bears some of the blame for the resulting mess.
>Do you have any action or inaction by officers that make you call them clueless?
Spraying unresisting passive protesters in the face with pepper spray - and thinking that's a reasonable response to a student protest.I think the Chancellor and or Chief should bear most of the responsibility. They called in and I believe directed and approved the pepper spray (in the videos you see two PO's consistently hold a hand to an ear, this is some times done when not hearing the ear bud too clearly due to noise).
Honest question here - can you think of any other way they could have handled that situation?
I think they could have tried to just drag the arrested individuals out initially with out hesitation. Form a wedge around the two PO's holding the person and press through. It does open them up to a physical confrontation of course when blocked.
IMO the Students and PD was wrong, equally.
Matt
An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!
So, start being safe, first!!!
mnealtx 0
QuoteYou chide other people for not agreeing to what they can actually observe on the video. The cops could clearly leave. The video shows it.
Speaking of observing the video, you may wish to take note of all the REST of the people instead of just the ones on the walk - you know, the ones making *another* ring around the cops?
Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706
Quote
Speaking of 'mantras over and over'.... from the folks that evidently think the right thing was for the cops to keep saying 'pretty please' until the protesters moved.
Speaking of that *whoosh* from the red-herring folks.
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239
mnealtx 0
QuoteQuote
Speaking of 'mantras over and over'.... from the folks that evidently think the right thing was for the cops to keep saying 'pretty please' until the protesters moved.
Speaking of that *whoosh* from the red-herring folks.
No need to belabor the point, we already knew that your arguments were red herrings based on the cops trying to separate the protesters and then telling them they'd be sprayed.
Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706
QuoteQuoteYou chide other people for not agreeing to what they can actually observe on the video. The cops could clearly leave. The video shows it.
Speaking of observing the video, you may wish to take note of all the REST of the people instead of just the ones on the walk - you know, the ones making *another* ring around the cops?
You say that like it was significant. Wrong...again.
You guys seem to think that the kids would have started shooting or something if the cops had walked through that "ring".
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239
normiss 883
College kids are deadly!!!!
QuoteQuoteQuoteYou chide other people for not agreeing to what they can actually observe on the video. The cops could clearly leave. The video shows it.
Speaking of observing the video, you may wish to take note of all the REST of the people instead of just the ones on the walk - you know, the ones making *another* ring around the cops?
You say that like it was significant. Wrong...again.
You guys seem to think that the kids would have started shooting or something if the cops had walked through that "ring".
Probably not, as most of those kids are -probably- just "Rubber neckers" and instigators.
I think they would have continued to yell and chant but would have parted for the cops, except for a few wanna be tough guys.
Matt
An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!
So, start being safe, first!!!
Quote... except for a few wanna be tough guys.
Matt
UC Davis? Tough guys?
Now, U of Miami, I could understand.
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239
normiss 883
But Pen State would fuck you!
QuoteQuote... except for a few wanna be tough guys.
Matt
UC Davis? Tough guys?
Now, U of Miami, I could understand.
Hey, I put in the caveat!
Matt
An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!
So, start being safe, first!!!
Kennedy 0
Quote>It sounds like you have issues with the college admin that called in police.
Yes. The Chancellor bears some of the blame for the resulting mess.
Well, we agree on that much.
Quote>Do you have any action or inaction by officers that make you call them clueless?
Spraying unresisting passive protesters in the face with pepper spray - and thinking that's a reasonable response to a student protest.
You'd be right, if that's what happened. The problem with your statement is that pepper spray wasn't in response to student protest. It was in response to resisting/delaying/obstructing officers from performing their duties.
QuoteHonest question here - can you think of any other way they could have handled that situation?
I can think of plenty, some are even legal and plausible. None of that changes the fact that officers acted in accordance with case law, statute, state mandated training, and department policy.
witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*
Kennedy 0
QuoteQuoteHonest question here - can you think of any other way they could have handled that situation?
Do you realize how many times that question has already passed right over the top of the police-supporter's heads?
I'm still waiting for you to tell us what kind of injury is suffered when someone is sprayed.
witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*
Kennedy 0
QuoteQuoteMy argument hasn't changed. The protesters prevented the officers from doing their job by preventing them from leaving.
You chide other people for not agreeing to what they can actually observe on the video.
The cops could clearly leave. The video shows it.
For the rest of your post, I'll redirect you to the last line of my post you quoted.
So in other words, you're not going to answer my post. I answered your point, and your response is to ignore my answer. Thanks for nothing.
To save you having to click back, I said:
QuoteMy argument hasn't changed. The protesters prevented the officers from doing their job by preventing them from leaving. By your logic, there's nothing with locking cops in a building to prevent them from arresting your friend. "They can just break out of the building, so they weren't really stopped." Wrong. Just because officers can overcome resistance that doesn't mean it isn't really resistance. Those officers made at least two arrests. The protesters surrounded the officers. Since the protesters refused to move, the officers are going to take steps to make them move.
Officers are not going to carry an arrestee over a line of protesters. There is all kinds of liability and vulnerability involved in doing that. The officers are going to leave, and they are going to take the arrestees with them. The protesters' choices left the officers no option but using force.
The next part of my post was about why they used OC instead of empty hands. It was in THIS post, two pages back. In that post I said
QuoteThe use of pepper spray (and TASERs, believe it or not) have both resulted in fewer injuries to officers and to suspects. There have been deaths after pepper spray and deaths after TASER use*, but the number of deaths after use of force incidents have not gone up. What that means is that yes, some people will die after fighting with the police, and yes, they may still die if officers use OC or TASER, but that both officers and suspects are less likely to be injured with those two options, and no one is any more likely to die.
That's right. There is no increase in the likelihood of death, and a statistically significant reduction in the number of officer AND suspect injures.
http://www.nij.gov/...267/use-of-force.htm
https://www.ncjrs.gov/...iles1/nij/195739.pdf
So I'll ask again, which type of force do you want officers to use, the one less likely to result in injury, or the one more likely to result in injury?
witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*
normiss 883
Oh they're doing just fine alienating themselves from the general populace.
It's rapidly becoming an "us vs. them" mentality.
Kennedy 0
QuoteI think they could have tried to just drag the arrested individuals out initially with out hesitation. Form a wedge around the two PO's holding the person and press through. It does open them up to a physical confrontation of course when blocked.
IMO the Students and PD was wrong, equally.
Matt
So do you want officers and protesters to get hurt? Despite what people seem to think, use of force continuums have been developed for a reason. It's not abitrary that pepper spray is lower than "hard hands" type of force. OC results in fewer injuries for both officers and suspects.
Think about the bruises, strains, sprains, and breaks that could result from officers marching over the protesters or grabbing them and wrenching them apart. Now look at how many injuries resulted from OC spray (hint: zero). After the OC spray, some of the protesters let go (the feeling of liquid hot magma in your eyes will do that). They were then grabbed and moved without injury. Others were much easier to separate because they were not focused on linking arms (that magma thing).
witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*
Kennedy 0
QuoteOh they're doing just fine alienating themselves from the general populace.
It's rapidly becoming an "us vs. them" mentality.
Sure, if you think OWS represents the general populace.
witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*
SkyDekker 1,465
QuoteSo in other words, you're not going to answer my post.
No, in other words it is useless to have a meaningful discussion with somebody who continues to maintain that the cops were prevented from leaving when the video clearly shows that not to be the case.
The rest of your questions are red herrings.
billvon 3,096
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>Sure, if you think OWS represents the general populace.
People are starting to think they do - partly because of incidents like this one. It's one thing to see people pooping on cars and leaving parks a pigsty. It's another thing to see passive unresisting protesters being sprayed in the face by a cop who looks like he's spraying ants.
People are starting to think they do - partly because of incidents like this one. It's one thing to see people pooping on cars and leaving parks a pigsty. It's another thing to see passive unresisting protesters being sprayed in the face by a cop who looks like he's spraying ants.
SkyDekker 1,465
Kennedy seems to have a hard time differentiating between legal and prudent. It is a very common issue with LEO type personnel.
They cannot get past the fact that something can be legal, or according to regulation, but still wrong.
They cannot get past the fact that something can be legal, or according to regulation, but still wrong.
Quote>Sure, if you think OWS represents the general populace.
People are starting to think they do - partly because of incidents like this one. It's one thing to see people pooping on cars and leaving parks a pigsty. It's another thing to see passive unresisting protesters being sprayed in the face by a cop who looks like he's spraying ants.
I would say passive "resisting" protesters. Resisting since they decided to form the circle and refused to move for the PD.
Kennedy- Yes, try and move, then if that is not successful go to the next step step. You mentioned it yourself there are steps and protocal's, they can be "ramped up" to the end step, but this is not one of those cases.
I do not think the PD was clueless or overly violent, I also do not think the officer that was suspended should not have been, and I think the Protesters got what they wanted, publicity.
Matt
An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!
So, start being safe, first!!!
The cops should totally follow back seat car rules.
"I'm not touching, can't get angry, i'm not touching, can't get angry"
We should let whiny little kids undermine the officers authority until they play more of a Hall Monitor type role.
=P
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