Obama pushes for extension of payroll tax relief

[Anvilbrother 0]

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204531404577054401225610944.html

So those here on the left say we have to RAISE TAXES to get out of the problem we are in, here is a chance for Obama to do the LEFT thing and he doesn't? Why?

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[devildog 0]

because he knows 2012 is coming

You stop breathing for a few minutes and everyone jumps to conclusions.

[wmw999 2,589]

Because it's not taxes on the middle-class and lower-middle-class wages that need to be raised. They spend most of that money they get (look at savings rates ), so it goes back into the economy.

Many richer people will simply save more if they get more. Also admirable, but if you're trying to stimulate the economy, not quite as effective.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[mirage62 0]

"Many richer people will simply save more if they get more. Also admirable, but if you're trying to stimulate the economy, not quite as effective"

Most "rich" don't dump extra money into a pass book saving account. They buy stocks, invest in whatever made them rich...I believe that has a great effect on stimulating the economy.

Raise taxes on the top 1% (3%)
Cut across the board EVERYTHING 10%
Raise spending by the rate of inflation yearly
If the spending goes up (other than inflation) the new tax goes away.

As things get better and taxes recites go up every penny is used to pay down the debt.

It's EASY to say "tax the rich more" but when we say cut spending along with that. (I mean real cuts) it all "wrong"

We can not tax our way out of this mess, we can not only cut spending our way out.

Kevin Keenan is my hero, a double FUP, he does so much with so little

[tkhayes 348]

taxes need to be raised across the board as part of the overall solution.

Got a letter from Biden asking for his support in keeping the payroll taxes reduced. If they are going to let other 'automatic' taxes and spending cuts go into effect, then the only reason for this is political - they are all assholes on both sides.

[ianmdrennan 2]

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We can not tax our way out of this mess, we can not only cut spending our way out.

Agreed. The biggest roadblock right now is that the Republican party totally refuses to raise taxes or even let tax cuts expire - the reality is that we simply have to.

We also HAVE to cut spending.

As you said, only one or the other won't work.

Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[mnealtx 0]

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We can not tax our way out of this mess, we can not only cut spending our way out.

Agreed. The biggest roadblock right now is that the Republican party totally refuses to raise taxes or even let tax cuts expire - the reality is that we simply have to.

Really? Is that why the Democrats in the supercommittee wouldn't agree to a plan from the Republicans that would have increased tax revenues by some 500 billion?

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[ianmdrennan 2]

Link please.

So far, every statement I've heard from the Republican party is that tax increases are entirely off the table.

edit: No need, found a link and reading now.

Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[mnealtx 0]

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Link please.

So far, every statement I've heard from the Republican party is that tax increases are entirely off the table.

Ian

Link

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According to multiple sources familiar with the deliberations, Toomey’s framework would have lowered and locked in the top individual rate to 28 percent and lowered other rates commensurately. It would have (the numbers are rough) offset the revenue loss and raised $250 billion in new revenue by limiting the value of deductions, especially on the high end. It would have gotten another $40 billion with an adjustment to the CPI, moving to “chained indexing.” It would have raised another $110 billion through growth effects of the lower rates and another $100 billion through asset sales and the like. That’s about $500 billion in revenue.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[rehmwa 2]

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Agreed. The biggest roadblock right now is that the Republican party totally refuses to raise taxes or even let tax cuts expire - the reality is that we simply have to.

We also HAVE to cut spending.

As you said, only one or the other won't work.

What do you think of this spin? -



Agreed. The biggest roadblock right now is that the Democratic party totally refuses to cut spending dramatically - the reality is that we simply have to.

on a very minor note - We also HAVE to raise more revenue. (I'd print in in smaller font if I know the settings)

As you said, only one or the other won't work

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[ianmdrennan 2]

I'd think you were overly sensitive to political ideology?

Dems come to terms that they have to DRAMATICALLY cut spending, the Repubs have to terms that they have to raise taxes.

It's really very simple. We:

a) Have to spend less
b) Have to bring in more.

Once the deficit issues are addressed, people can go back to arguing. Until then, we have a bigger issue to solve.

Ian

edited: To add DRAMATICALLY in caps, just to keep Rehmwa happy

Performance Designs Factory Team

[ianmdrennan 2]

Looking for a more credible link. Sorry Mike but that's about as useful as getting my info from AirAmerica (or whatever that thing was called) - that's very definitely an opinion piece.

I know there was something put out, just trying to find details on what the actual proposal was. Unfortunately since (to my knowledge) there are no official records of the process or negotiations there are only speculation pieces from both sides.

edit: Every article I've found so far refers to the Bush era tax cuts as the sticking point for both sides.

Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[rehmwa 2]

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edited: To add DRAMATICALLY in caps, just to keep Rehmwa happy

thanks!!!

The problem still applies - we have to do both, and both in a big way - How do we guarantee they will do both?

We know if they reduce spending, then spending is reduced. The budget is published.

BUT, every time we increase revenue, they just spend it, and a little bit more. Leaving us more in the hole than ever.

Proposals are "let a spend a shit ton now, and we'll gradually reduce spending over the next 20 years" - do you believe that?



Seems to me, said it before, I don't trust them to cut spending in any way. They need to demonstrate it and stick with it - only then will I trust them to take more from everybody to pay down the debt.

But, at least that gets us to both solutions......


(I'm not so sensitive to it, so much as cynical to it....)

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[rehmwa 2]

It really is a "you do it first" faceoff.

But I don't trust the "tax more now and spend less later crowd" AT ALL they've lied on that too many times (every single time)


I don't trust the "spend less now and tax more later crowd" either. But at least I can monitor them for when they start to fail - and it definitely moves us in the right direction.


go with the other guys, we move in the wrong direction from the start and only hold empty promises

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Amazon 7]

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It really is a "you do it first" faceoff.

But I don't trust the "tax more now and spend less later crowd" AT ALL they've lied on that too many times (every single time)


I don't trust the "spend less now and tax more later crowd" either. But at least I can monitor them for when they start to fail - and it definitely moves us in the right direction.


go with the other guys, we move in the wrong direction from the start and only hold empty promises

The greatest problem with the spend less now at all costs crowd is the ideological cuts in spending that get us no where except to stretch out the pain of being in debt till their children are long dead as well.

Until they are ready to take on the Trillion Ton Gorilla that has been sucking the life out of this country since the end of WWII... you know... the one that Dwight Eisenhower warned us about in 1960.. there can and will be no change and the end game for them is no country... no government... just the few corporations owned by an ever smaller group of the very wealthy.

[rehmwa 2]

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The greatest problem with the spend less now at all costs crowd is the ideological cuts in spending

I think that's a great point - I get really upset when I see a decent discussion about cutting spending, and then, SUDDENLY, the politician throws out this -

"we really need to make cuts consistent with our culture and ideology"

WRONG - this is a clear symptom that our spending has nothing to do with what's right for the country, it's just a big pile of social engineering and political favoritism (and this is not restricted to one party at all) in a country where people can do a much better job taking care of themselves.

across the board cuts - indescriminately - to start. And then stick to your guns. Get all tactical later once we stop bleeding

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[kallend 2,151]

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Link please.

So far, every statement I've heard from the Republican party is that tax increases are entirely off the table.

Ian

Link

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According to multiple sources familiar with the deliberations, Toomey’s framework would have lowered and locked in the top individual rate to 28 percent and lowered other rates commensurately.

LOWERED

It would have (the numbers are rough) offset the revenue loss and raised $250 billion in new revenue by limiting the value of deductions,

OK, now it's a wash (being generous)

especially on the high end. It would have gotten another $40 billion with an adjustment to the CPI, moving to “chained indexing.” It would have raised another $110 billion through growth effects of the lower rates

AKA Voodoo Economics - and we know that hasn't worked.


and another $100 billion through asset sales and the like. That’s about $500 billion in revenue.

Looks like vaporware to me.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[mnealtx 0]

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Looking for a more credible link. Sorry Mike but that's about as useful as getting my info from AirAmerica (or whatever that thing was called) - that's very definitely an opinion piece.

Opinion or not, it shows that the Republicans weren't 'totally refusing to raise taxes' as you claimed.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[mnealtx 0]

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Looks like vaporware to me.

I'm sure it does - we know economics isn't your strong suit.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[ianmdrennan 2]

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Looking for a more credible link. Sorry Mike but that's about as useful as getting my info from AirAmerica (or whatever that thing was called) - that's very definitely an opinion piece.

Opinion or not, it shows that the Republicans weren't 'totally refusing to raise taxes' as you claimed.

Um, they (Repubs) claimed it - I simply parroted what they have been saying all along. Now, it does seem like at the last moment something was presented that included tax changes (doesn't seem like increases though, just a reshuffling).

Look, if the Republicans were serious about helping with this problem they'd have jumped at the chance to cut Dem's spending even if it meant letting Bush-Era tax cuts expire.

The Dems were willing to go into "Liberal Holy Ground" with entitlement programs. A missed golden opportunity for the Republicans.

The whole thing reminds me of a divorce where people/parties (both) will cut off their own nose to spite their face.

Ian

Ps: Here's one of many links that support my parrot about the Republicans and taxes - it was the first one google pulled up.
http://www.opposingviews.com/i/money/john-boehner-no-tax-increases-cut-deficit.

Performance Designs Factory Team

[mnealtx 0]

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Opinion or not, it shows that the Republicans weren't 'totally refusing to raise taxes' as you claimed.

Um, they (Repubs) claimed it - I simply parroted what they have been saying all along. Now, it does seem like at the last moment something was presented that included tax changes (doesn't seem like increases though, just a reshuffling).

Increase in revenue *is* a tax increase.

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Look, if the Republicans were serious about helping with this problem they'd have jumped at the chance to cut Dem's spending even if it meant letting Bush-Era tax cuts expire.

Look, if the Democrats were serious about helping with this problem they'd have jumped at the change to raise revenues even if it meant letting Bush-era tax cuts stand.

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The Dems were willing to go into "Liberal Holy Ground" with entitlement programs. A missed golden opportunity for the Republicans.

And the Reps were willing to go into "Conservative Holy Ground" with tax increases. A missed golden opportunity for the Democrats.

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Ps: Here's one of many links that support my parrot about the Republicans and taxes - it was the first one google pulled up.
http://www.opposingviews.com/...ncreases-cut-deficit.

That would be the same Speaker Boehner that was agreeable to 800B in revenue increases from this summer's "Grand Bargain" before President Obama demanded another 400B, yes?

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[Andy9o8 2]

So if he does something liberal he's a dick, and if he does something conservative, he's a dick. Why not just say "I think Obama's a dick" and be done with it?

[Anvilbrother 0]

My point was the raging liberals here are always saying BUSH was a dick for everything he did, but when Obama does the same thing you hear nothing.

So I guess you could say they are a dicks, and obama also.

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[billvon 3,120]

>So I guess you could say they are a dicks, and obama also.

That insult doesn't even make sense.

[Anvilbrother 0]

Sure it does, the left on this forum is quick as hell to point out bushes lowering of taxes in the past helping to get us to the financial mess we are in. They also say along with spending cuts the raising of taxes is needed by everyone especially towards the 1%. When Obama has the opportunity to perform a top democrat procedure of raising taxes and doesn't, you don't hear a peep from them. This is hypocritical and a dick move.

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