Amazon 7
Okay, Paul. So now we're at the point where suggestions can be made.
Without manhandling (popsjumper's suggestion) or chemical agent (what they did), then what else could be done to get them to move? We know that asking didn't help and negotiations would be fruitless because they have no goal.
Cartman would suggest playing Slayer, but that would also be considered torture.
What other methods could be utilized that did not involve offending the senses?
My wife is hotter than your wife.
Without manhandling (popsjumper's suggestion) or chemical agent (what they did), then what else could be done to get them to move? We know that asking didn't help and negotiations would be fruitless because they have no goal.
Cartman would suggest playing Slayer, but that would also be considered torture.
What other methods could be utilized that did not involve offending the senses?
My wife is hotter than your wife.
QuoteThat depends. Pepper spray may be considered by many to be the FIRST step. My personal (and yes, highly personal opinion) is that the least amount of violence occurs when a person is subdued.
Take a look at how it is handled in a place like prison. When an inmate refuses to leave his or her cell, they first give opportunity and warning to the prisoner to get out. Rather than first sending in an extraction team, they will pepper spray the cell to put the desire in the prisoner to leave. If that doesn’t work, they go in a physically remove the prisoner.
I understand the comparison of “prisoner” to “protester” can be a stretch but not from the position of the officer who would remove.
It's a huge stretch. Citizens have rights that felons do not. Pepper spraying the entire crowd because you think some of them may resist is not justifiable.
Physically removing someone may be violent. But passively sitting there is not.
verbil 0
quade 4
QuoteWhat other methods could be utilized that did not involve offending the senses?
There's a difference and wide range of things between "offending the senses" and pepper spray.
A fart on an airplane offends my senses, but generally speaking no actual harm is done to anyone. Pepper spray, while generally considered a "less than lethal" weapon, still can send a person to the hospital. Perhaps even be fatal.
QuoteIn this report, the ACLU of Southern California identifies 26 deaths among people who were pepper-sprayed by police officers in the period Jan. 1, 1993, through June 1, 1995. The fatality total suggests that one person dies after being pepper sprayed for about every 600 times the spray is used by police.
Source; http://www.aclu-sc.org/attach/p/Pepper_Spray_New_Questions.pdf
quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver
The World's Most Boring Skydiver
Quote
QuoteIn this report, the ACLU of Southern California identifies 26 deaths among people who were pepper-sprayed by police officers in the period Jan. 1, 1993, through June 1, 1995. The fatality total suggests that one person dies after being pepper sprayed for about every 600 times the spray is used by police.
Source; http://www.aclu-sc.org/attach/p/Pepper_Spray_New_Questions.pdf
I would be interested in whether or not this number includes people who were only pepper sprayed and then physically restrained or if it also included cases where pepper spray was ineffective and the police were forced to escalate to baton strikes and/or lethal force. If the latter, the number is vastly skewed.
quade 4
Then you might want to read the article.
quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver
The World's Most Boring Skydiver
Quote
In Reply To
What other methods could be utilized that did not involve offending the senses?
There's a difference and wide range of things between "offending the senses" and pepper spray.
A fart on an airplane offends my senses, but generally speaking no actual harm is done to anyone. Pepper spray, while generally considered a "less than lethal" weapon, still can send a person to the hospital. Perhaps even be fatal.
What other methods could be utilized that did not involve offending the senses? That is, something that did not involves smell, sound, touch, taste or sight?
How does one get them to leave without doign something offensive?
My wife is hotter than your wife.
Amazon 7
Quote
Another history FAIL
Aint you the party of the three R's?
Oh thats right.... History don't start with an R
quade 4
QuoteWhat other methods could be utilized that did not involve offending the senses? That is, something that did not involves smell, sound, touch, taste or sight?
I suppose they could ask an existential question, but then the protesters would have to hear it and that too may offend them, just as your ridiculous question offends me.
You're simply trying to muddy the waters here. I suppose that's your job, clearly it's not philosophy, but again, we're not talking about simply "offending the senses", but rather something that some, the National Institute of Justice for instance, considers a step just below the use of "impact force" (in other words taking a club and beating somebody).
QuoteThe National Institute of Justice ranks the use of pepper spray “just above hands-on pain compliance and immediately below the use of impact weapons” on the use-of- force continuum.
Source; http://www.nyc.gov/html/ccrb/pdf/pepperreport.pdf
http://www.nij.gov/nij/topics/law-enforcement/officer-safety/use-of-force/continuum.htm
"Offending the senses" is not what we're talking about here.
More;
http://search.usa.gov/search?query=pepper+spray&affiliate=nationalinstituteofjustice&x=0&y=0
quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver
The World's Most Boring Skydiver
Aside from the cops shouldn't have used pepper spray, what should the cops have done to disperse the protesters?
Are you not providing a proposal because there is no good option?
My wife is hotter than your wife.
Are you not providing a proposal because there is no good option?
My wife is hotter than your wife.
rehmwa 2
Perhaps one could sit amongst them and start reading this thread aloud until they leave in disgust
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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants
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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants
QuoteWasn't this just a simple matter of the Police requesting the protesters clear the sidewalk so others could get through and the protesters refusing to do so? I can't see where it's such a big deal. They have the right to protest, what they don't have the right to do is to prevent others from pursuing their education by blocking their access to the school buildings.
I would agree with that. But even simpler is that particular path was not the only one available so nobody was actually being "blocked" at all.
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239
QuoteQuoteWhy can't the protesters respect the rights of others?
Very few protests of any kind can be effective unless there is a possibly of upsetting the status quo of an organization. Otherwise the organization can simply ignore it. The protest pretty much has to be at least a bit disruptive.
Excellent point.
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239
QuoteQuoteIf I understand you correctly that you are defending the actions of the cop, then you, sir, are part of the problem.
Peaceful protest does NOT warrant violent response from the cops. Not noway. Not nohow.
Andy – what do you do to get the protesters to disperse? Here are the options, as I see them:
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(3) Now we move into use of force. Do they walk in and drag the protesters away one by one? This is use of physical force and risks harm to the protesters and the police.
This is the option I would have chosen. It can be done, and has been done many times in the past, without injury to anyone involved.
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Andy – you know I don’t like cops – and I hate DA’s even more.
Yes, I know that...I was just poking you.
We see eye-to-on many issues.
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But we’re peaceful,” does that mean that they shouldn’t be ejected?
No, of course not. They rightfully so, IMO, should have been moved given the position that their presence there was illegal. It's just a question of how. The choice the police made was not proper in my book.
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There are two assumptions there, Andy. One is that I am a violent person. I have not been accused of such since I was a kid, when I used to be.
Again...just poking you, eh?
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It’s the “use no more force than absolutely necessary” doctrine.
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Which is exactly what my beef with this whole situation really is.
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You advocated a violent response – moving in with physical force and taking them away.
OK. We differ. Picking them up and carrying them away is not a violent response in my book, especially as compared to what actually happend. Again, it's been done many times successfully without injury.
Now I do agree that had the protesters responded by fighting back, then yes, a more physical action would have been warranted such as THEN spraying them or even manhandling them if necessary. That didn't happen.
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I would have had a bigger problem with the police had they moved in and started tackling and cuffing. That’s where people get serious injuries.
Well, yes, of course. I hope you don't have the idea that the only way to move them would have been by tackling and cuffing. I understand cuffing is standard procedure these days regardless of the offense.
They really didn't even have to cuff them...one officer on the arms, one on the legs and throw them in the paddy wagon...quick and painless.
One of the worst riots in the country was Chicago '68. Very few people arrested were cuffed before they hit the paddy wagons or ambulances. Of course, many of us were unable to do anything at all after the beatings so cuffs weren't really necessary but, there you go.
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239
Quote
make a choice Quade - what do you prefer -
1. temporary discomfort that makes you say "the hell with it, it's not worth it" and then you move on or:
2. someone forced to manhandle you, twist your arm, and physically relocate you
I'll take a shot...
It's sad commentary that those are the only two options you could come up with. It's sad that you can think of nothing other than manhandling and twisting arms to move someone.
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239
QuoteWithout manhandling (popsjumper's suggestion)
WHOA there! I never suggested manhandling. I'm totally arguing against that!
QuoteWhat other methods could be utilized that did not involve offending the senses?
Moving them without the manhandling is possible and preferable....as has already been both implicitly and explicitly suggested....by me, for one.
Let me respond to something that was was brought up by somebody else....either in this thread or the other one....
Kennedy suggested that SOP is to use the spray early in the process (3rd, if I remember correctly). Well, holly hell, why don't we blast the cops that arrest people successfully, without injury, for violating that procedure by NOT spraying them? Anyone ever get arrested without having been sprayed?
One example....police on a traffic stop approaching a car not having any clue as to what they will be facing. How many arrests are made without the spray? Without having to manhandle the perp. Oh, I dunno, thousands?
Approaching that car is a different world than facing a bunch of protesters sitting on a sidewalk. I can't justify the spraying of those people.
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239
Quote
QuoteIn this report, the ACLU of Southern California identifies 26 deaths among people who were pepper-sprayed by police officers in the period Jan. 1, 1993, through June 1, 1995. The fatality total suggests that one person dies after being pepper sprayed for about every 600 times the spray is used by police.
Source; http://www.aclu-sc.org/attach/p/Pepper_Spray_New_Questions.pdf
I did notice this blurb early in the report:
"The ACLU also obtained an internal memorandum produced by the largest supplier of pepper spray to the California police and civilian markets that concludes that serious health risks may ensue if police spray a person with OC with more than a single burst of one second duration."
I saw more than that in the video.
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239
Marinus 0
QuoteAside from the cops shouldn't have used pepper spray, what should the cops have done to disperse the protesters?
Carrying the protesters away one by one would be a good way. Depending how the protesters react to it the cops can use proportionate force. Proportionate force can be the use off pepper spray, btw.
Dean358 0
QuoteQuoteAside from the cops shouldn't have used pepper spray, what should the cops have done to disperse the protesters?
Carrying the protesters away one by one would be a good way. Depending how the protesters react to it the cops can use proportionate force. Proportionate force can be the use off pepper spray, btw.
You know, I've been thinking a lot since yesterday and I've come to the conclusion that this is, in hindsight, how it should have been done. And that the immediate deployment of pepper spray was the wrong move.
Andy and Paul - you got me to change my mind on this. Don't let it go to your heads...
My wife is hotter than your wife.
Amazon 7
QuoteQuoteQuoteAside from the cops shouldn't have used pepper spray, what should the cops have done to disperse the protesters?
Carrying the protesters away one by one would be a good way. Depending how the protesters react to it the cops can use proportionate force. Proportionate force can be the use off pepper spray, btw.
You know, I've been thinking a lot since yesterday and I've come to the conclusion that this is, in hindsight, how it should have been done. And that the immediate deployment of pepper spray was the wrong move.
Andy and Paul - you got me to change my mind on this. Don't let it go to your heads...
I see a type-o. I meant "should not have been not." Not "should have been done."
My wife is hotter than your wife.
My wife is hotter than your wife.
Peaceful revolution occurs every two years. More so every four. Hence, the "out with the old and in with the new" on January 20, 2009. Despite what you may have heard, the rePUBICans did not mount an armed defense of the White House to keep the greatm good, moral and ethical people out of the White House.
Peaceful Revolution occurred on Jan. 20, 2007. And in January 1995. Etc.
But there is yet another sideto revolution - a goal. If they are revolutionaries, then they must have a goal. What is it?
"Belief in the myth allows the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." - John F. Kennedy
The trouble is counselor... that there are too many people just like you on the fringe right who are giving a carte blance to an escalation that will end with yet another Gen Dyer.