Surrender to a higher power?

[popsjumper 2]

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Well, he as a propensity for speaking for others. I was hoping to get YOUR input.

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I think there's sufficient input from my side.

Nothing more relevant to say? OK.
Sorry to see that this discussion is an US vs Them thing. I didn't see that.

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But to directly answer your question: I consider the AA to be a placebo of sorts, it works *) by the power of suggestion. other then that it's utter BS.

*) or does it? The data about the effectiveness of the AA program are shady at best. The more outspoken sources seem to indicate that the AA is hardly effective.

There's haters everywhere.

I tend to believe those that have used the program and have had success as opposed to the vociferous haters. Thanks.

I just don't agree with your opinion on the idea that a successful methodology is BS.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

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[popsjumper 2]

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Sorry you can't separate two different statements.

I'm sorry you can't apply basic logic.

*sigh*

Sorry you're getting panties wadded up.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[Coreece 190]

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the state mandated that a person must attend AA or NA meetings

Being forced into AA basically renders the program useless....I really don't see the point.

IMO, AA is a last chance for those that truly want it....you can't force them.

Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are...

[Coreece 190]

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You're actually right. I even do self-hypnosis, which is actually nothing more then lying to yourself, and choosing to believe the lies. Not a placebo, but there's a lot of similarities.

But a fake pill or manipulating your mid via concentration techniques is a whole lot better then a "Higher Power" which could be God, or a group of people, or love, or Mel Gibson's scrotum or anything you want it to be.

...Like a bunch of people in the bonfire giving you support and advice to quit smoking as you discuss your feelings, challenges and past failures that brought you to tears?

AA's not much different than that.

Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are...

[Marinus 0]

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...Like a bunch of people in the bonfire giving you support and advice to quit smoking as you discuss your feelings, challenges and past failures that brought you to tears?

AA's not much different than that.

Okay I'll bite, and apply the twelve steps to my smoke cessation:

1) We admitted we were powerless over alcohol—that our lives had become unmanageable.

The fact that I stopped proves I'm not powerless against smoking, and while I was/am addicted, my life wasn't unmanageable because of my smoking

2) Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.

No, I mostly got really tired of smoking.

3) Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.

I took matters in my own hand, and threw away my cigarettes.

4) Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.

I see my smoking as stupid, pathetic, expensive and unhealthy, but not as immoral.

5) Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.

I only had to admit to myself that I was/am addicted. It helps to admit it to others too. And see step 4) there were no other wrongs

6) Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.

I'm not ready, nor expecting that God will remove the defects in character that caused my smoke addiction. If fact I assume those defects will be part of me for the rest of my life.

7) Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.

I'm proud for each day I do without smoking despite the fact that I'm an addict. Yes, it goes easy this time, but I doubt it's because He removed my shortcomings.

8) Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all.

I've always been a very considerate smoker, and I don't think that smelling like an ash tray for 17 years is enough to apologize to people for.

9) Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.

It isn't needed to make amends. Well, maybe to people that fall victim to my somewhat explosive moods that accompany withdrawal. I usually do that on the spot.

10)Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it.

see 8

11) Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out.

The first step That's semi-relevant to me: I do use self-hypnosis. However, that's me manipulating me into not smoking. And since I know for a fact that I'm not a higher power, the rest of the step doesn't apply to me.

Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to alcoholics, and to practice these principles in all our affairs.

Spiritual awakening? my a$$, an while I will support people that try to quit or want to quit smoking, I most certainly wont be the one that'll bother them with the nonsense of step 1 to 11 1/2.

Yes it helps that people, including you guys support me, and I really appreciate that, but you aren't a higher power, and you most certainly won't do the quitting for me. In the end it'll be me that decides to not light a cig whenever I crave one.

[Marinus 0]

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*sigh*

Sorry you're getting panties wadded up.

I'm sorry you're such an old and bitter man.

[Coreece 190]

Have you ever been to an AA meeting?

Many different types of people, both religious and atheist.

They do not sit around all day trying to find reasons they shouldn't be there...

They just listen to others and then speak their peace...their only concern is staying sober.

That's all, end of story.

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1) We admitted we were powerless over alcohol—that our lives had become unmanageable.

The fact that I stopped proves I'm not powerless against smoking

No, your statement just proves that you didn't admit you were powerless...doesn't sound like the right program for you, yet...next.

Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are...

[Marinus 0]

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No, your statement just proves that you didn't admit you were powerless...doesn't sound like the right program for you, yet...next.

I know dozens op people who successfully quit smoking, and they did it by different methods. None of them used a 12 steps program. And the chances that I will use it are slim to. For that to happen I need to relapse and have a brain malfunction that makes it impossible for me to distinguish between BS and reality.

Until that happens,you can take your twelve steps including your higher power and shove them into a place where the sun doesn't shine and the air quality is less then optimal.

[Coreece 190]

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No, your statement just proves that you didn't admit you were powerless...doesn't sound like the right program for you, yet...next.

I know dozens op people who successfully quit smoking, and they did it by different methods. None of them used a 12 steps program. And the chances that I will use it are slim to. For that to happen I need to relapse and have a brain malfunction that makes it impossible for me to distinguish between BS and reality.

Until that happens,you can take your twelve steps including your higher power and shove them into a place where the sun doesn't shine and the air quality is less then optimal.

Ya well, as far as I can tell, you never really sucessfully quit smoking, and then started to cry like a little girl when you saw the eternal prospect....

Hell, if I even remember corectly, you even fancied the idea of getting all liquered up in order to face your smoking addiction...good luck with all that, perhaps you'll invent the wheel all over again, starting with the BS I intially dumped into your mind that got you here in the first place...

Admit it, you're powerless...

Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are...

[Marinus 0]

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starting with the BS I intially dumped into your mind that got you here in the first place...

Your advise was helpful, I'll admit that, but other then that what got me here was for 95% me. I'm thankful for the support I got on the way here, but the one who really deserves the credit for not smoking is me.

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Admit it, you're powerless...

Step one is just crypto-Christian self-loathing, and I don't do that myself. I'm not powerless and I prove that with every day I don't smoke.

I think it's time to ignore you again. Have a good day, but don't bother boring me with your "wisdom" any more

[popsjumper 2]

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you can take your twelve steps including your higher power and shove them into a place where the sun doesn't shine and the air quality is less then optimal.

Maturity at its best.
Congrats, girl!

So, you don't have the mental capacity for accepting the fact that others live life differently than you? You are arrogant enough to think that your way is the only way?
Maturity at its best.
Congrats, girl!

Now, grow up and quit wasting oxygen, eh?

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[Marinus 0]

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So, you don't have the mental capacity for accepting the fact that others live life differently than you? You are arrogant enough to think that your way is the only way?

I think you should really read better: The core of my opinion on the matter is: I consider the twelve steps to be nonsensical, but they might have a placebo effect on people who believe in it. And if people are helped by it, I've no problem with that, but it isn't my cup of tea.

Then Coreece says I'm actually doing the twelve steps myself in my attempt to quit smoking. I disagree, and might I say, I do so with proper argumentation. Then Coreece tries to force the 12 steps down my throat anyway.

So Coreece is the one who can't understand that I don't want anything to do with the crypto Christian nonsense of the AA, and that some people do things their way ( Like in my case, just man up and quit smoking)

So Popsjumper: You've got a point here, you're just not talking to the right person. Go bother Coreece, not me. When someone suggest religion to me, the first time I refuse it with a "No thanks" and if that message isn't clear enough, the next time I'll tell them to shove it.

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Maturity at its best.
Congrats, girl!

Now, grow up and quit wasting oxygen, eh?

When I'm older and wiser, I'll probably get mature enough to make ad hominems just like you do here. For all you "enlightened" babble, you surely lack proper discussion skills. Ad hominems are the lowest form of discussion, thanks for proving you're inferior to someone who tells others to shove it.

[Coreece 190]

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Then Coreece says I'm actually doing the twelve steps myself in my attempt to quit smoking. I disagree, and might I say, I do so with proper argumentation. Then Coreece tries to force the 12 steps down my throat anyway.

If I were to shove anything down your throat it'd be a nicorette lozenge...relax dude.

God grant me the serenity
to accept the things I cannot change;
courage to change the things I can;
and wisdom to know the difference.

Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are...

[billvon 3,132]

Both of you cut it out.

[Shotgun 1]

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I know dozens op people who successfully quit smoking, and they did it by different methods. None of them used a 12 steps program.

I know at least one person who used a twelve-step program to quit smoking. Whatever works.

Unfortunately, Bill Wilson was never able to kick his smoking addiction, and it contributed to his death. He never even tried using the twelve steps, despite the urging of some of his friends. Actually, he really never worked the "twelve" steps to quit drinking; he already had a few years sober before he wrote them. The program that was originally passed along orally contained about six distinct steps, but he changed it to twelve when he was writing the book because he wanted the program to seem more formal, and he liked the number twelve because of the "Twelve Apostles."

In my opinion, the main thing that the original AA'ers stumbled onto was the idea of alcoholics joining together to help other alcoholics. It seems to be pretty common knowledge nowadays that when we have a particularly difficult problem, it is often helpful to get support from others who share that problem. I think there are a lot of people who get help through twelve-step programs but who don't necessarily take the steps literally, and some members who don't even use the steps at all. Again, whatever works.

[winsor 236]

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I know dozens op people who successfully quit smoking, and they did it by different methods. None of them used a 12 steps program.

I know at least one person who used a twelve-step program to quit smoking. Whatever works.

Unfortunately, Bill Wilson was never able to kick his smoking addiction, and it contributed to his death. He never even tried using the twelve steps, despite the urging of some of his friends. Actually, he really never worked the "twelve" steps to quit drinking; he already had a few years sober before he wrote them. The program that was originally passed along orally contained about six distinct steps, but he changed it to twelve when he was writing the book because he wanted the program to seem more formal, and he liked the number twelve because of the "Twelve Apostles."

In my opinion, the main thing that the original AA'ers stumbled onto was the idea of alcoholics joining together to help other alcoholics. It seems to be pretty common knowledge nowadays that when we have a particularly difficult problem, it is often helpful to get support from others who share that problem. I think there are a lot of people who get help through twelve-step programs but who don't necessarily take the steps literally, and some members who don't even use the steps at all. Again, whatever works.

[Shotgun 1]

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I am out of the loop, but from what I recall the focus was on booze/dope, and cigarettes/coffee were non-issues.

The focus in AA is alcohol. I was just referring to the fact that Mr. Wilson also struggled with his cigarette addiction and that his friends tried to get him to use the "steps" to overcome the addiction. Apparently he never tried, though today there is now a Nicotine Anonymous (along with Everything-else Anonymous), so it seems that some people are using the twelve steps for that as well.

But yeah, all things considered, nicotine addiction is nowhere near as harmful as addiction to alcohol (or some of the other hard drugs).

[Marinus 0]

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But yeah, all things considered, nicotine addiction is nowhere near as harmful as addiction to alcohol (or some of the other hard drugs).

The physical harm of tobacco addiction is extensive, and the addiction is rather severe, but other then that almost every smoker can fit their addiction into their lives without much problems. The first thing I did in the morning was lighting a cig and I smoked all day long. Doing the same with alcohol is a whole other kettle of fish. Both are the same stage of addiction (the final or junky stage) but one leads to a derailed life and one causes little problems (Well, you usually drop dead right after retirement)

But anyway, if people want to quit smoking using a 12 step program, that's their business. I can't read the 12 steps program without having strong feelings of revulsion, so I'm probably better of with another method. And before people start whining again that I'm intolerant: I also have strong feelings of revulsion when I see people eat cheese, but I'm not judging people for eating cheese, this is about the same thing as far as I'm considered.

[CloudyHead 0]

I was told by an addiction councilor that a higher power does not necessarily mean god, and is in fact why they reworded it to "higher power" from the old way. It is not necessarily a religious meaning.

She went on to say...
"Surrendering to a higher power means realizing that this isn't all about you. You are part of a bigger picture. The "bigger picture" may refer to your family, friends, or whatever it is that you are surrendering to for strength. It is this higher strength of power -- much bigger than you -- that will in turn help you with your addiction."

This higher power could be your kid who watches you get shitfaced and cries because they are watching you destroy your life. Surrendering to the responsibilities of fatherhood/motherhood in this regard can be seen as a "higher power" because it is something that is bigger and more important than you.

It is sometimes hard to find reasons WITHIN yourself to stop the addiction. It then becomes necessary to look OUTSIDE yourself for something greater. A greater reason to quit.

[Marinus 0]

Then instead of saying:

"Surrender yourself to a higher power"

they should say:

"You should realize this isn't only about you"

or

"If you can't find reasons to quit within yourself, look for reasons to quit outside yourself."

It's a difference between meaningless vagueness and clear & valid argumentation.

[popsjumper 2]

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I was told by an addiction councilor that a higher power does not necessarily mean god, and is in fact why they reworded it to "higher power" from the old way. It is not necessarily a religious meaning.

She went on to say...
"Surrendering to a higher power means realizing that this isn't all about you. You are part of a bigger picture. The "bigger picture" may refer to your family, friends, or whatever it is that you are surrendering to for strength. It is this higher strength of power -- much bigger than you -- that will in turn help you with your addiction."

This higher power could be your kid who watches you get shitfaced and cries because they are watching you destroy your life. Surrendering to the responsibilities of fatherhood/motherhood in this regard can be seen as a "higher power" because it is something that is bigger and more important than you.

It is sometimes hard to find reasons WITHIN yourself to stop the addiction. It then becomes necessary to look OUTSIDE yourself for something greater. A greater reason to quit.

WoooHoooo!
Somebody "gets it"!!!!!

Whether or not it works for you is your business. Whether or not it works for me is mine.

Whining about semantics and saying "it should be...." or "it shouldn't be..." is pointless.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[Marinus 0]

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WoooHoooo!
Somebody "gets it"!!!!!

Yes, but then again, if you say that "surrendering to a higher power" means "surrendering to Jaweh" or "believing in love" or even "eating apple pie on Saturdays" it's good too, as long as it keeps you from drinking.

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Whether or not it works for you is your business. Whether or not it works for me is mine.

I've one brother that's sober with AA, and one brother that's dead without AA. Other than that I think I'm pragmatic enough to agree with you on this anyway.

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Whining about semantics and saying "it should be...." or "it shouldn't be..." is pointless.

You huwt my feewings

Other then that, there aren't many semantic issues to whine about because the twelve steps can mean about anything. But if it keeps you or anyone else sober: Good for you.

[kallend 2,182]

Rather like going low on a formation, it's best not to go there in the first place than to expect help from an invisible friend to get you back up.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.