Looks like the fat lady has sung on AGW

[StreetScooby 5]

Yes, that does interest me. Any words to go with the picture?

We are all engines of karma

[mnealtx 0]

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Yes, that does interest me. Any words to go with the picture?

I think the map and associated graphs serve quite well as a rebuttal to claims that the MWP is cooler than present day all by itself, actually.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[skiskyrock 0]

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And the ice record shows that it *was* warmer.

Please read my previous response about the ice core carefully. The latest point in the Greenland ice core data you present is 1855. The year of our lord eighteen hundred fifty five. The presidency of Franklin Pierce. Pre civil war. Early in the industrial revolution. When you compare the data from a weather station 28KM away from the point the ice cores were taken from, it is obvious that the site is warmer now than in the middle ages.
But even if was cooler, it is one site. On an icesheet.

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Sure thing, skippy, once y'all show that CO2 actually drives the temperature - is "man-made CO2" somehow exempt from the historical 800 year lag between temps and CO2?

up to this point you've been claiming that in the paleoclimate record CO2 lags temperature, so it can't be the cause of warming. Now you are claiming temperatures lag 800 years behind CO2. Sorry, it doesn't work that way.

CO2 is both a forcing and a feedback. If the temperature goes up, CO2 is less soluble in water, so atmospheric CO2 rises (causing additional warming along the way). If CO2 is released from fossil fuels, it immediately absorbs infrared and begins forcing a temperature increase. This is based on black body radiation and the absorptivity of CO2 in the infrared( Svante Arrhenius figured this out in 1896). The CO2 doesn't wait 800 years to start absorbing infrared and forcing the climate. And the eruption of Mt. Pinatubo shows that the global temperature reacts quickly to a forcing.

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Oh, and don't forget to explain how levels well below 500ppm are somehow going to push us over the eco-chondriac 'tipping point' when levels were several times *higher* than that during the past with no 'runaway temperature gain'.

I don't claim that, and I'm unaware of any published research that does. Keep supplying the strawmen though... good source of carbon neutral fuel.

[mnealtx 0]

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The latest point in the Greenland ice core data you present is 1855. The year of our lord eighteen hundred fifty five. The presidency of Franklin Pierce. Pre civil war. Early in the industrial revolution.

And this has bearing to the validity of the temp record for the MWP in that core, how?

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When you compare the data from a weather station 28KM away from the point the ice cores were taken from, it is obvious that the site is warmer now than in the middle ages.

Well by all means, please provide the records from that station for the MWP, so we can all see it.

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But even if was cooler, it is one site. On an icesheet.

Plenty more than one site showing the MWP was warmer.

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up to this point you've been claiming that in the paleoclimate record CO2 lags temperature, so it can't be the cause of warming. Now you are claiming temperatures lag 800 years behind CO2. Sorry, it doesn't work that way.

No, I'm still claiming that CO2 lags temp.

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The CO2 doesn't wait 800 years to start absorbing infrared and forcing the climate.

Then you should be able to prove that CO2 was the prime driver that forced temps up without a lag, yes?

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And the eruption of Mt. Pinatubo shows that the global temperature reacts quickly to a forcing.

Yup..it showed that the atmospheric aerosols have an immediate cooling effect. Doesn't prove much at all regarding CO2 as a driver.

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Oh, and don't forget to explain how levels well below 500ppm are somehow going to push us over the eco-chondriac 'tipping point' when levels were several times *higher* than that during the past with no 'runaway temperature gain'.

I don't claim that, and I'm unaware of any published research that does. Keep supplying the strawmen though... good source of carbon neutral fuel.

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NEW YORK, New York, June 1, 2007 (ENS) - A stern warning that global warming is nearing an irreversible tipping point was issued today by the climate scientist who the Bush administration has tried to muzzle.

James Hansen, director of NASA's Goddard Institute for Space Studies in New York, today published a study showing that greenhouse gases emitted by human activities have brought the Earth's climate close to critical tipping points, with potentially dangerous consequences for the planet.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[skiskyrock 0]

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The latest point in the Greenland ice core data you present is 1855. The year of our lord eighteen hundred fifty five. The presidency of Franklin Pierce. Pre civil war. Early in the industrial revolution

And this has bearing to the validity of the temp record for the MWP in that core, how?

You show data for the MWP. You circle the last point on the graph and and exclaim sarcastically "unprecedented warming" but the point you circle is in 1855. When you add the current temperature reference to the graph, as was done in the skeptical science article I linked, you find that the MWP is cooler than the current temperature at that location i.e. it wasn't warmer in the middle ages.

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When you compare the data from a weather station 28KM away from the point the ice cores were taken from, it is obvious that the site is warmer now than in the middle ages.

Well by all means, please provide the records from that station for the MWP, so we can all see it.

again, already provided in the link

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But even if was cooler, it is one site. On an icesheet.

Plenty more than one site showing the MWP was warmer.

As I showed previously, there are 10 published reconstructions that show globally we are now warmer than the MWP.

quoting is getting unmanageable at this point

I'm not sure what you are arguing with the 800 year lag ... are you saying that the MWP caused the current increase in CO2? or that we have to wait 800 years after the temp goes up before we can emit more CO2 to the atmosphere? Please explain what you think should happened to CO2 and temperatures based on your lag idea.

Again the amount of energy deposited in the atmosphere by CO2 is no different than the energy reflected by aerosols. The system doesn't know where energy is coming from, it just responds. That's why the various climate inputs are described as forcings, in W/m^2 regardless of the source, since it is all energy in the end.

In the 20th century we put a lot of CO2 into the atmosphere; the temperature went up. No 800 year lag, because CO2 is acting as a forcing. We don't have previous examples of this, since it has never happened before (with the possible exception of the Pliocene-Eocene thermal maximum). The rise due to CO2 is superimposed on a background of internal variability and other forcings so it is not a monotonic increase, but the effect is clear. Hence the IPPC finding that the late 20th century warming is man made.

Hansen is not predicting a runaway at 500ppm, just that the climate will transition to a regime that we (humans) haven't experienced before. The fact that CO2 and temperatures were higher in the distant past doesn't mean that we could survive as a species or civilization under those climate conditions.

[lawrocket 3]

I had posyed about the ice sheets in Greenland and that the extra precipitation on the ice sheet itself would maintain stasis of Greenland ice as a whole. Any thoughts?

And kallend - I looked at that equation. Neat stuff! So if I may ask your off-topic opinion - is there a weirder substace in the world than water? It's properties are so odd...

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[mnealtx 0]

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The latest point in the Greenland ice core data you present is 1855. The year of our lord eighteen hundred fifty five. The presidency of Franklin Pierce. Pre civil war. Early in the industrial revolution

And this has bearing to the validity of the temp record for the MWP in that core, how?

You show data for the MWP. You circle the last point on the graph and and exclaim sarcastically "unprecedented warming" but the point you circle is in 1855. When you add the current temperature reference to the graph, as was done in the skeptical science article I linked, you find that the MWP is cooler than the current temperature at that location i.e. it wasn't warmer in the middle ages.

Actually, that ice core data goes to approximately 1905 - some 50 years past the start of the "CO2 era". Your graph (wikipedia, btw, not skeptical science), shows a rise of approximately .7 degrees from 1900 to now. The graph shows a difference of approximately 1.1 degrees between the 1905 end and the MWP.

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Well by all means, please provide the records from that station for the MWP, so we can all see it.

again, already provided in the link

[StreetScooby 5]

Interesting article today:
Global Warming -- RIP

This debate has become so polarized. With the "left wing lunatics" advocating solutions and restrictions that just won't fly, let's hope the rational people stay involved. The more I read, the more I'm convinced that humans are indeed having an impact. I've known all along that we can't keep wantonly polluting the Earth. I'm beginning to appreciate the magnitude with which we're doing that. Having said that, I still don't expect to see polar bears drowning in my lifetime.

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Over the last half-century, Americans have agreed that smoky plants and polluting industries needed to be cleaned up. But when the green movement began to classify clean-burning heat as a pollutant, it began to lose the cash-strapped public.

While the Obama administration was subsidizing failed or inefficient green industries, radical breakthroughs in domestic fossil-fuel exploration and recovery -- especially horizontal drilling and fracking -- have vastly increased the known American reserves of gas and oil. Modern efficient engines have meant that both can be consumed with little, if any, pollution -- at a time when a struggling U.S. economy is paying nearly half a trillion dollars for imported fossil fuels. The public apparently would prefer developing more of our own gas, oil, shale, tar sands and coal as an alternative to going broke by either importing more fuels from abroad or subsidizing more inefficient windmills and solar panels at home.

We simply don't know positively whether recent human activity has caused the planet to warm up to dangerous levels. But we do know that those who insist it does are sometimes disingenuous, often profit-minded, and nearly always impractical.

We are all engines of karma

[Amazon 7]

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Interesting article today:
Global Warming -- RIP

This debate has become so polarized. With the "left wing lunatics" advocating solutions and restrictions that just won't fly, let's hope the rational people stay involved. The more I read, the more I'm convinced that humans are indeed having an impact. I've known all along that we can't keep wantonly polluting the Earth. I'm beginning to appreciate the magnitude with which we're doing that. Having said that, I still don't expect to see polar bears drowning in my lifetime.

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Over the last half-century, Americans have agreed that smoky plants and polluting industries needed to be cleaned up. But when the green movement began to classify clean-burning heat as a pollutant, it began to lose the cash-strapped public.

While the Obama administration was subsidizing failed or inefficient green industries, radical breakthroughs in domestic fossil-fuel exploration and recovery -- especially horizontal drilling and fracking -- have vastly increased the known American reserves of gas and oil. Modern efficient engines have meant that both can be consumed with little, if any, pollution -- at a time when a struggling U.S. economy is paying nearly half a trillion dollars for imported fossil fuels. The public apparently would prefer developing more of our own gas, oil, shale, tar sands and coal as an alternative to going broke by either importing more fuels from abroad or subsidizing more inefficient windmills and solar panels at home.

We simply don't know positively whether recent human activity has caused the planet to warm up to dangerous levels. But we do know that those who insist it does are sometimes disingenuous, often profit-minded, and nearly always impractical.

Ah yes.. fracking again... I think all the global warming deniers should get a chance to drink LOTS of water from wells that are in areas that have shale formations that have been FRACKED. Suck up all that water yall can there in those red states that LOVE short term gains to the billionaires... while the local poor folk are left with polluted wells and air and all kinds of new fun sicknesses. Oh did we mention that Cheney et al.. made sure there was a loophole ( the Halliburton Loophole) that makes polluting the water and air in large portions of the country just dandy. Making billions for the few.. is FAR more important than the health of millions of their fellow Americans.. but what the hell. The people drinking that polluted shit are not really "people who matter" anyway. Its all for a little TRICKLE right

[brenthutch 444]

I live within 2.5 miles of a coal plant, 4 miles from a nuclear reactor (research) and on top of shale formations that are now being fracked. I still have deer and wild turkey in my back yard. And yes the water still tastes great.

[Amazon 7]

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I live within 2.5 miles of a coal plant, 4 miles from a nuclear reactor (research) and on top of shale formations that are now being fracked. I still have deer and wild turkey in my back yard. And yes the water still tastes great.

Great its working for you.... when they all die and your neighbors start to get sick as well will you be pissed??

[lawrocket 3]

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when they all die and your neighbors start to get sick as well will you be pissed??

Will that be before or after Fresno will be oceanfront?

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[Amazon 7]

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when they all die and your neighbors start to get sick as well will you be pissed??

Will that be before or after Fresno will be oceanfront?

The funny thing about cancer... is you expose yourself to environmentally hazardous materials and eventually one of the jumps right up and smacks da fuck outta ya.

Lost any friends to cancer yet???

If not... you will.

http://www.cancer-rates.info/ca/index.php

I have been saying it for years.... just because yall want to live in a polluted cesspool.. do you REALLLY want everyone else to jump in with you???

[lawrocket 3]

Yeah. i've known plenty. I did my first skydive (a tandem) at the suggestion of an ex who wanted to do something "life affirming."

No, I don't want to live in a polluted cesspool. In fact, it's nice that technology has progressed to where we have sewers to sequester shit. And no, I don't want to live there, either.

It's why I like to eat organics and go pesticide free. And perhaps others could do the same, avoid vices like cancer sticks and the like.

And rather than pump the environment full of methane and CO2, as well as leachates from decomposing matter, I'll opt for styrofoam and plastics that do not degrade and thus don't go anywhere or do anything when sequestered from humankind.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[Amazon 7]

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Yeah. i've known plenty. I did my first skydive (a tandem) at the suggestion of an ex who wanted to do something "life affirming."

No, I don't want to live in a polluted cesspool. In fact, it's nice that technology has progressed to where we have sewers to sequester shit. And no, I don't want to live there, either.

It's why I like to eat organics and go pesticide free. And perhaps others could do the same, avoid vices like cancer sticks and the like.

And rather than pump the environment full of methane and CO2, as well as leachates from decomposing matter, I'll opt for styrofoam and plastics that do not degrade and thus don't go anywhere or do anything when sequestered from humankind.

Hey maybe you will luck out and have them frack a shale formation near you..That gas coming out of the water taps.. looks so cool

[brenthutch 444]

News flash Amazon, life is a sexually transmitted disease with a 100% mortality rate. No one gets out alive.

[mnealtx 0]

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Hey maybe you will luck out and have them frack a shale formation near you..That gas coming out of the water taps.. looks so cool

Well, now that we know you get your 'facts' from mockumentaries...will you be starting threads on Fahrenheit 911, next?

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[Amazon 7]

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News flash Amazon, life is a sexually transmitted disease with a 100% mortality rate. No one gets out alive.

Me I am good with getting out in mysleep in my 90's... andwithout dieing from a debilitating cancer that removes quality of life.... I guess YMMV.

I have seen people die of cancer, including my step-father with a tumor in his brain. Interesting that "conservatives" can't seem to fathom life before the high rates of cancer that we have today. One would have thought they would want to conserve a better quality of life instead of bending over so deeply and grab their ankles for a few billionaires to get even richer.... while letting thousands of those who "are not people who matter" get sick and die.

[Amazon 7]

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Hey maybe you will luck out and have them frack a shale formation near you..That gas coming out of the water taps.. looks so cool

Well, now that we know you get your 'facts' from mockumentaries...will you be starting threads on Fahrenheit 911, next?

Ah yes.. oh lookie.. its MR. see nothing speak nothing hear nothing that is not approved by FAUX News.. What the hell Mikee... I would have thought you gave a shit for your family and friends that live down there in TX... oh thats right... its a way of life in Texas to live withair and water pollution so a few people can get fabulously wealthy and tell yall what you need to be thinkin

Agaion.. just cause yall don't mind the air, water and land you live on bein polluted...don't expect the rest of us to bend over like yall are expected to do.

[brenthutch 444]

well then, you should just STFU, and let me die a slow painful death at my summer home in Montana.

[mnealtx 0]

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Well, now that we know you get your 'facts' from mockumentaries...will you be starting threads on Fahrenheit 911, next?

Ah yes.. oh lookie.. its MR. see nothing speak nothing hear nothing that is not approved by FAUX News..

Oh lookie...it's Ms believe everything you see/hear that could possibly be traced to conservatives.

Here's a little tidbit for you from a Congressional hearing....

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Senator Inhofe: I'm anxious to get to this second panel, Madame Chairman. I can't remain silent after Senator Lautenberg's statement about hydraulic fracturing. I have something to say about that, but first, I want to ask all three of you and response: Do any one of you know of one case of ground water contamination that has resulted from hydraulic fracturing? Start with you, Mr. Silva.

Peter Silva: Not that I'm aware of, no.

Senator Inhofe: Ms. Giles?

Cynthia Giles: I understand there's some anecdotal evidence, but I don't know that it's been firmly established.

Senator Inhofe: So the answer is no, you don't know of it.

Cynthia Giles nods.

Senator Inhofe: Alright, Mr. Larsen?

Matthew Larsen: I'll have to respond in writing, I don't, I'm not aware of all of our studies on that topic.

Senator Inhofe: Well, but you've already answered. You're not aware. That's the question I asked you.

Peter Silva, Assistant Administrator for Water, Environmental Protection Agency
Cynthia Giles, Assistant Administrator for Enforcement and Compliance Assurance, Environmental Protection Agency
Matthew Larsen, Associate Director for Water, U.S. Geological Survey.

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What the hell Mikee... I would have thought you gave a shit for your family and friends that live down there in TX... oh thats right... its a way of life in Texas to live withair and water pollution so a few people can get fabulously wealthy and tell yall what you need to be thinkin

Does it hurt to be so CONSISTENTLY wrong?

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[Amazon 7]

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well then, you should just STFU, and let me die a slow painful death at my summer home in Montana.

How many of your neighbors do you wanna take with you???

Are you benefitting greatly from those you worship so much?

[Amazon 7]

Only in YOUR wittle mind

I know its tough for you Mikeee.. boy are you gonna be pissed when you find out your hero's lied to you..http://www.cancer-rates.info/tx/index.php

Then again.. you have been fooled so many times... as your Hero told ja about in one of his "speeches" that did such a great job of rollin off his tounge You are used to bein fooled all of the time.

[mnealtx 0]

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Only in YOUR wittle mind

So, your mockumentary is more valid than the EPA officials? And you're talking about OTHER people's minds?

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Then again.. you have been fooled so many times... as your Hero told ja about in one of his "speeches" that did such a great job of rollin off his tounge

Transference at it's finest.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[Amazon 7]

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Only in YOUR wittle mind

So, your mockumentary is more valid than the EPA officials? And you're talking about OTHER people's minds?

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Then again.. you have been fooled so many times... as your Hero told ja about in one of his "speeches" that did such a great job of rollin off his tounge

Transference at it's finest.

Don't look now.. but this EPA..not the one under YOUR hero.. it ain't the rubber stamp one that gave your hero's desire to get richer a pass with the "Halliburton Loophole" to the Clean Water Act, is taking a look at all the 500+ chemicals they are using.... and are not being nice little chemicals and staying put thousands of feet below ground... funny dat.

Ah yes.. Mr Rubber Glue. I guess they must have given you a nice big ole gold Texican star in the third grade for that... hence your coninual use of it... goin back to those "Glory Days"