skiskyrock 0 #151 October 25, 2011 QuoteCO2 is an effect, not a cause. There have multiple times in history when CO2 was many times higher than today and we never reached a 'tipping point'. The histo5.png you keep posting... you are aware that the most recent point in the data is 1855? It has gotten warmer in central Greenland since then. Warmer than any point in the record, in fact. http://www.skepticalscience.com/10000-years-warmer.htm Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #152 October 25, 2011 QuoteQuote Lemme know when the temp starts going up again, will ya? It's only been 13 years now. Contradicting yourself again! Nope. Temp anomaly is *still* above Mann's arbitrary baseline. Relevance FAIL.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #153 October 25, 2011 QuoteThe histo5.png you keep posting... you are aware that the most recent point in the data is 1855? It has gotten warmer in central Greenland since then. Warmer than any point in the record, in fact. Really? I must have missed seeing all that GREEN in Greenland the last time I flew over it, then.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites lawrocket 3 #154 October 25, 2011 Quote The histo5.png you keep posting... you are aware that the most recent point in the data is 1855? It has gotten warmer in central Greenland since then. Warmer than any point in the record, in fact. http://www.skepticalscience.com/10000-years-warmer.htm So then would you explain what the effect of warmer weather is in central Greenland with relation to the ice sheet? Especially when the mean temperature is under 15 degrees, Fahrenheit? Hint: ambient air loses nearly all humidity at -40. The amount of water vapor that 32 degree air can hold is significantly higher than the air at 0 degrees. This is the potential precipitation that can form and ADD to an ice sheet. The Greenland ice sheet itself is adding 3-6 cm per year of new ice. If the climate warms a couple of degrees, physics, meteorology and climate science tells us that melting will not increase by nearly as much as precipitation will in the inland areas. The VAST majority of Greenland’s ice is in the sheet, which is accreting. The parts along the coasts are ablating, and the ice sheet is, as a whole, in stasis. In Greenland, barring a 10 degree jump or something like that, will continue to be in stasis. This is the foolishness of equating ablation of glaciers with the ablation of ice in the Arctic. Sea ice and land ice are formed in different ways. Heck, the formation of ice in calm water works somewhat differently than in turbulent water. Either way, though, ice in the water forms by cold air freezing the surface of the water. The molecules crystallize and propagate. Land ice is formed by precipitation, either in the form of snow, hail, or icefall – or even by frost accumulating. It may seem counterintuitive that warmer temperatures can cause more ice to form. That is even an oversimplification. Temperature determines how much water vapor air CAN hold, while vapor pressure determines how much water the air WILL hold. The latter is the reason why the “blizzards mean global warming” is a silly oversimplification that can be countered by looking at Buffalo, New York and the “Lake Effect” snows that occur. My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Amazon 7 #155 October 25, 2011 Hmmm Interesting "ablation" at 15 degrees FOH... Mikeee... Here you may want this so you can invest in new beachfront propertyhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=6szDWFeT5dw Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mnealtx 0 #156 October 25, 2011 Can't access youtube, sorry. I imagine it's more of your 'could-maybe-if' scenarios that you *think* are gonna happen 'any day now'?Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Amazon 7 #157 October 25, 2011 QuoteCan't access youtube, sorry. I imagine it's more of your 'could-maybe-if' scenarios that you *think* are gonna happen 'any day now'? Hey don't say I didn't try to help Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites lawrocket 3 #158 October 25, 2011 I can't access Youtube. But ablation can and DOES occur at temperatures below 32 degrees. Ablation occurs at very low temperatures because of vapor pressure gradients. That’s what freeze drying is. And freezer burn. Ice can and does evaporate from the surface without “melting.” In fact, this is a process seen at a number of temperate glaciers. It’s why I call it “ablation” rather than “melting.” Less ice today than last month does not mean it melted. Other processes completely unrelated to “heat” differences cause glaciers to lose mass. Could you describe what happened? edit: I can also melt water below 32 degrees by adding salt to it. My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Amazon 7 #159 October 25, 2011 QuoteI can't access Youtube. But ablation can and DOES occur at temperatures below 32 degrees. Ablation occurs at very low temperatures because of vapor pressure gradients. That’s what freeze drying is. And freezer burn. Ice can and does evaporate from the surface without “melting.” In fact, this is a process seen at a number of temperate glaciers. It’s why I call it “ablation” rather than “melting.” Less ice today than last month does not mean it melted. Other processes completely unrelated to “heat” differences cause glaciers to lose mass. Could you describe what happened? edit: I can also melt water below 32 degrees by adding salt to it. It shows running water.. as in MELT water flowing in channels across the very top of the ice sheet.. into what was a huge FRESH water lake.. on top of the glacier in Greenland that flowed into a crack and tunnel system called a moulin. http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn16741-witness-a-journey-to-the-bottom-of-an-ice-sheet.html NOTE.. keywords FRESH WATER... MELTING GREENLAND Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,150 #160 October 25, 2011 QuoteQuoteQuote Lemme know when the temp starts going up again, will ya? It's only been 13 years now. Contradicting yourself again! Nope. Temp anomaly is *still* above Mann's arbitrary baseline. Relevance FAIL. I guess you didn't look at your own graph posted in this very thread, which definitely shows warming continuing after 1998.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,150 #161 October 25, 2011 QuoteI can't access Youtube. But ablation can and DOES occur at temperatures below 32 degrees. Ablation occurs at very low temperatures because of vapor pressure gradients. Suggest you look up the Clapeyron equation if you think temperature is not a factor in this.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mnealtx 0 #162 October 25, 2011 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuote Lemme know when the temp starts going up again, will ya? It's only been 13 years now. Contradicting yourself again! Nope. Temp anomaly is *still* above Mann's arbitrary baseline. Relevance FAIL. I guess you didn't look at your own graph posted in this very thread, which definitely shows warming continuing after 1998. Make sure to let me know when they get back above the 98 peak...which is STILL lower than the MWP, which evidently was caused by Vikings driving SUV's.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,150 #163 October 25, 2011 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuote Lemme know when the temp starts going up again, will ya? It's only been 13 years now. Contradicting yourself again! Nope. Temp anomaly is *still* above Mann's arbitrary baseline. Relevance FAIL. I guess you didn't look at your own graph posted in this very thread, which definitely shows warming continuing after 1998. Make sure to let me know when they get back above the 98 peak...which is STILL lower than the MWP, which evidently was caused by Vikings driving SUV's. I guess you didn't look carefully enough at your own linked graph, posted in this very thread, which definitely shows warming continuing after 1998.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites lawrocket 3 #164 October 25, 2011 So you’re saying that ice melts in the summer? That’s a shocker. I had no idea. Of course, I did not say that the temperature was always under freezing. Just that the temperature of 14 degrees is the yearly average. Or is it mean? “Under the summer sun, the surface of Greenland's ice sheet melts into pools and lakes. The water is darker than the reflective ice it sits in, so it absorbs more heat from the sun.” There is no shocker here. “Summer sun.” “”darker…absorbs more heat.” Yeah, that’s kind of the way it has been for longer than we’ve been measuring it. Also please note the physics of the water flow – energy. Potential is being converted to kinetic. Not only is the sun’s heat melting it, but the movement of the water is also melting it. Even water flowing over ice has friction. But yes, the sun does, in fact, melt ice in Greenland in the summer. I also found it interesting that the rubber duckies didn’t make it out of the ice pack. They don’t know whether they were pulverized or just haven’t had an outlet. There are lots of unanswered questions. I would be interested in seeing some video of the moulins from the centuries past. I don’t think moulins are a post-industrial age thing. And remember when that glacier calved an ice tongue four times the size of Manahttan? The horror? That’s a drop in the bucket considering that the Arctic, as we speak, is creating a Manhattan of ice every minute. Furthermore, the fact that a glacier tongue that massive calved into the ocean says something: “That glacier is not retreating.” You know what a retreating glacier does? If your answer it, “moves toward the ocean and breaks off in it” then you are not correct. A retreating glacier might stop before it hits the ocean. In ten years, maybe it stops 5 feet from the ocean. In 50 years, the glacier is maybe 25 feet from the ocean. But note this – meltwater accelerating a glacier would be interesting to see. Is there any indication that this ice pack up top is thinning? Well, yes. During the summer months. But then it gets replenished in the fall, winter and spring. We don’t look out to our mountain peaks and see clear mountain tops and glaciers down low. So these moulins are simply another one of the high-visibility things. “Look at all this water melting!” I say, “No shit. You’re on a fucking sheet of ice 1,500 miles long and almost 700 miles wide at its widest point that averages over a mile thick. And that’s just the ice sheet! Add another 30k square miles of glaciers toward the coast and you’re talking a lot of water locked up. The ice sheet is so massive that it has pushed the land under it down and is contained by mountains on its periphery. And there’s a surprise that a bunch of water melts in the summer? My goodness, Jeanne. In your neck of the woods, are you surprised when frozen lakes melts in the spring and summer? The massive melt of snow we had in the Sierras this year led to spectacular waterfalls and swollen rivers in Yosemite that killed several people. It WASN’T because it was any hotter – the weather here this summer was actually rather mild. Rather, it was because we had so much damned snow TO melt. This is a simple concept that ends up being lost in the climate debate. “Look at all the ice melting” no longer means, “summer in Greenland.” It now means “global warming.” My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mnealtx 0 #165 October 25, 2011 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuote Lemme know when the temp starts going up again, will ya? It's only been 13 years now. Contradicting yourself again! Nope. Temp anomaly is *still* above Mann's arbitrary baseline. Relevance FAIL. I guess you didn't look at your own graph posted in this very thread, which definitely shows warming continuing after 1998. Make sure to let me know when they get back above the 98 peak...which is STILL lower than the MWP, which evidently was caused by Vikings driving SUV's. I guess you didn't look carefully enough at your own linked graph, posted in this very thread, which definitely shows warming continuing after 1998. Relevance FAIL. Show where I said all warming has stopped, perfesser.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,150 #166 October 25, 2011 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuote Lemme know when the temp starts going up again, will ya? It's only been 13 years now. Contradicting yourself again! Nope. Temp anomaly is *still* above Mann's arbitrary baseline. Relevance FAIL. I guess you didn't look at your own graph posted in this very thread, which definitely shows warming continuing after 1998. Make sure to let me know when they get back above the 98 peak...which is STILL lower than the MWP, which evidently was caused by Vikings driving SUV's. I guess you didn't look carefully enough at your own linked graph, posted in this very thread, which definitely shows warming continuing after 1998. Relevance FAIL. Show where I said all warming has stopped, perfesser. So you agree warming is continuing, in accordance with the graph you posted.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,150 #167 October 25, 2011 QuoteSo you’re saying that ice melts in the summer? That’s a shocker. I had no idea. Of course, I did not say that the temperature was always under freezing. Just that the temperature of 14 degrees is the yearly average. Or is it mean? “Under the summer sun, the surface of Greenland's ice sheet melts into pools and lakes. The water is darker than the reflective ice it sits in, so it absorbs more heat from the sun.” There is no shocker here. “Summer sun.” “”darker…absorbs more heat.” Yeah, that’s kind of the way it has been for longer than we’ve been measuring it. Also please note the physics of the water flow – energy. Potential is being converted to kinetic. Not only is the sun’s heat melting it, but the movement of the water is also melting it. Even water flowing over ice has friction. But yes, the sun does, in fact, melt ice in Greenland in the summer. I also found it interesting that the rubber duckies didn’t make it out of the ice pack. They don’t know whether they were pulverized or just haven’t had an outlet. There are lots of unanswered questions. I would be interested in seeing some video of the moulins from the centuries past. I don’t think moulins are a post-industrial age thing. And remember when that glacier calved an ice tongue four times the size of Manahttan? The horror? That’s a drop in the bucket considering that the Arctic, as we speak, is creating a Manhattan of ice every minute. Furthermore, the fact that a glacier tongue that massive calved into the ocean says something: “That glacier is not retreating.” You know what a retreating glacier does? If your answer it, “moves toward the ocean and breaks off in it” then you are not correct. A retreating glacier might stop before it hits the ocean. In ten years, maybe it stops 5 feet from the ocean. In 50 years, the glacier is maybe 25 feet from the ocean. But note this – meltwater accelerating a glacier would be interesting to see. Is there any indication that this ice pack up top is thinning? Well, yes. During the summer months. But then it gets replenished in the fall, winter and spring. We don’t look out to our mountain peaks and see clear mountain tops and glaciers down low. So these moulins are simply another one of the high-visibility things. “Look at all this water melting!” I say, “No shit. You’re on a fucking sheet of ice 1,500 miles long and almost 700 miles wide at its widest point that averages over a mile thick. And that’s just the ice sheet! Add another 30k square miles of glaciers toward the coast and you’re talking a lot of water locked up. The ice sheet is so massive that it has pushed the land under it down and is contained by mountains on its periphery. And there’s a surprise that a bunch of water melts in the summer? My goodness, Jeanne. In your neck of the woods, are you surprised when frozen lakes melts in the spring and summer? The massive melt of snow we had in the Sierras this year led to spectacular waterfalls and swollen rivers in Yosemite that killed several people. It WASN’T because it was any hotter – the weather here this summer was actually rather mild. Rather, it was because we had so much damned snow TO melt. This is a simple concept that ends up being lost in the climate debate. “Look at all the ice melting” no longer means, “summer in Greenland.” It now means “global warming.” So how does it compare from one decade to the next, during the summer season?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Amazon 7 #168 October 25, 2011 Hey its not me that keeps blithing on and on and on about A B L A T I O N. I have spent a fairly sizable portion of my life in the mountains.. and yes I know what ablation is.. but I assure you... glaciers melt... and many that were here 40 years ago.. are LONG GONE. I have spent some quality time in the far north above the Arctic Circle... nothing like working in a daytime that never goes away. There is just something strange about wandering around on a glacier... in shorts and a tank...workin on one of the best tans I ever got.... while never getting a shiver at all.. in fact... perspiration. Yeah... that whole 15 degree F thing..... BBBBBZZZZZTTTTT wroooooooooooooooong. The trouble is though.. you and Mikee do not see it happening and do not want to KNOW its happening because you wish to believe its not happening. Personally... If people want to stick their heads in a snowbank till it melts... no problem Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites lawrocket 3 #169 October 25, 2011 Suggest you look up the Clapeyron equation if you think temperature is not a factor in this. Of course it is. Unless it’s absolute zero, temperature plays a role. (Of course we can’t reach absolute zero – third law of thermodynamics). The phase transitions are a function of pressure and temperature. While I’m not familiar with the equation, I know that temperature plays an important role in it. I’m not discounting the role of temperature in any way. But I am suggesting that the phase transition of water from solid to gas is a bit more complicated that “it’s warmer.” I’ll look at this. (Note to all: I will never question kallend’s expertise with regard to material phases) My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mnealtx 0 #170 October 25, 2011 QuoteSo you agree warming is continuing, in accordance with the graph you posted. No. I stated that temps are still above Mann's 'baseline' while being below the 1998 peak. Really, the silliness you go through to try to play your 'gotcha' games is just embarassing to watch.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,150 #171 October 25, 2011 Quote Lemme know when the temp starts going up again, will ya? It's only been 13 years now. Your weaseling is NOT very clever.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites lawrocket 3 #172 October 25, 2011 Quote but I assure you... glaciers melt... and many that were here 40 years ago.. are LONG GONE. And I assure you that many that were there 200 years ago were gone forty years ago. I have spent some quality time in the far north above the Arctic Circle... Quote I haven’t. I sunburn under a full moon when it’s overcast, so summer is out. And I have profound Reynaud’s so winter is bad juju for me. QuoteThere is just something strange about wandering around on a glacier... in shorts and a tank...workin on one of the best tans I ever got.... while never getting a shiver at all.. in fact... perspiration. Yeah... that whole 15 degree F thing..... BBBBBZZZZZTTTTT wroooooooooooooooong. I didn’t say it doesn’t ever get to 40 degrees. There are plenty of places on Greenland that average summer high temperatures in the 50’s or 60’s. QuoteThe trouble is though.. you and Mikee do not see it happening and do not want to KNOW its happening because you wish to believe its not happening. You’ve also got the gift of telepathy? Dang. It appears that your telepathy is warped, however, by the heat distortions of the atmosphere caused by CO2. Because I keep saying, “It’s happening.” Where I have my problem with you is your suggestion that it’s been happening since you got there. I hate to break this to you, but there is a whole 14 billion years or so of existence that occurred before you arrived in the northwest. Perhaps in 1970, had you bothered to ask anybody, those people might bemoan the loss of glacial mass in the last 40 years. That’s all I’m saying. Not that the loss is not happening but that it’s been happening since before you moved there. My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mnealtx 0 #173 October 25, 2011 QuoteQuote Lemme know when the temp starts going up again, will ya? It's only been 13 years now. Your weaseling is NOT very clever. "The fact is that we can't account for the lack of warming at the moment and it is a travesty that we can't." - Kevin Trenberth Your lame attempt to discredit is even LESS so.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,150 #174 October 25, 2011 QuoteQuoteQuote Lemme know when the temp starts going up again, will ya? It's only been 13 years now. Your weaseling is NOT very clever. "The fact is that we can't account for the lack of warming at the moment and it is a travesty that we can't." - Kevin Trenberth Your lame attempt to discredit is even LESS so. Ummm YOU posted the link to the graph showing warming continuing more recently than 13 years ago. Sucks for the Koch brothers that they funded the study that showed GW is happening. "In my case, one cherry-picked email quote has gone viral and at last check it was featured in over 107,000 items (in Google). Here is the quote: "The fact is that we can't account for the lack of warming at the moment and it is a travesty that we can't." It is amazing to see this particular quote lambasted so often. It stems from a paper I published this year bemoaning our inability to effectively monitor the energy flows associated with short-term climate variability. It is quite clear from the paper that I was not questioning the link between anthropogenic greenhouse gas emissions and warming, or even suggesting that recent temperatures are unusual in the context of short-term natural variability.", Kevin Trenberth... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mnealtx 0 #175 October 25, 2011 QuoteUmmm YOU posted the link to the graph showing warming continuing more recently than 13 years ago. Continuing? It's higher than the 98 peak? I find that hard to believe, given the decided LACK of self-congratulatory threads from you and bill. Must suck to have an argument that lame....I can see why you're so bitter. QuoteSucks for the Koch brothers that they funded the study that showed GW is happening. The one that the statisticians are ALREADY blowing holes in? The one that was released BEFORE being peer reviewed? The one whose lead scientist wrote this, just last week? "Are you a global warming skeptic? There are plenty of good reasons why you might be. As many as 757 stations in the United States recorded net surface-temperature cooling over the past century. Many are concentrated in the southeast, where some people attribute tornadoes and hurricanes to warming. The temperature-station quality is largely awful. The most important stations in the U.S. are included in the Department of Energy's Historical Climatology Network. A careful survey of these stations by a team led by meteorologist Anthony Watts showed that 70% of these stations have such poor siting that, by the U.S. government's own measure, they result in temperature uncertainties of between two and five degrees Celsius or more. We do not know how much worse are the stations in the developing world. Using data from all these poor stations, the U.N.'s Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change estimates an average global 0.64ºC temperature rise in the past 50 years, "most" of which the IPCC says is due to humans. Yet the margin of error for the stations is at least three times larger than the estimated warming."Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. 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lawrocket 3 #154 October 25, 2011 Quote The histo5.png you keep posting... you are aware that the most recent point in the data is 1855? It has gotten warmer in central Greenland since then. Warmer than any point in the record, in fact. http://www.skepticalscience.com/10000-years-warmer.htm So then would you explain what the effect of warmer weather is in central Greenland with relation to the ice sheet? Especially when the mean temperature is under 15 degrees, Fahrenheit? Hint: ambient air loses nearly all humidity at -40. The amount of water vapor that 32 degree air can hold is significantly higher than the air at 0 degrees. This is the potential precipitation that can form and ADD to an ice sheet. The Greenland ice sheet itself is adding 3-6 cm per year of new ice. If the climate warms a couple of degrees, physics, meteorology and climate science tells us that melting will not increase by nearly as much as precipitation will in the inland areas. The VAST majority of Greenland’s ice is in the sheet, which is accreting. The parts along the coasts are ablating, and the ice sheet is, as a whole, in stasis. In Greenland, barring a 10 degree jump or something like that, will continue to be in stasis. This is the foolishness of equating ablation of glaciers with the ablation of ice in the Arctic. Sea ice and land ice are formed in different ways. Heck, the formation of ice in calm water works somewhat differently than in turbulent water. Either way, though, ice in the water forms by cold air freezing the surface of the water. The molecules crystallize and propagate. Land ice is formed by precipitation, either in the form of snow, hail, or icefall – or even by frost accumulating. It may seem counterintuitive that warmer temperatures can cause more ice to form. That is even an oversimplification. Temperature determines how much water vapor air CAN hold, while vapor pressure determines how much water the air WILL hold. The latter is the reason why the “blizzards mean global warming” is a silly oversimplification that can be countered by looking at Buffalo, New York and the “Lake Effect” snows that occur. My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #155 October 25, 2011 Hmmm Interesting "ablation" at 15 degrees FOH... Mikeee... Here you may want this so you can invest in new beachfront propertyhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=6szDWFeT5dw Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #156 October 25, 2011 Can't access youtube, sorry. I imagine it's more of your 'could-maybe-if' scenarios that you *think* are gonna happen 'any day now'?Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #157 October 25, 2011 QuoteCan't access youtube, sorry. I imagine it's more of your 'could-maybe-if' scenarios that you *think* are gonna happen 'any day now'? Hey don't say I didn't try to help Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lawrocket 3 #158 October 25, 2011 I can't access Youtube. But ablation can and DOES occur at temperatures below 32 degrees. Ablation occurs at very low temperatures because of vapor pressure gradients. That’s what freeze drying is. And freezer burn. Ice can and does evaporate from the surface without “melting.” In fact, this is a process seen at a number of temperate glaciers. It’s why I call it “ablation” rather than “melting.” Less ice today than last month does not mean it melted. Other processes completely unrelated to “heat” differences cause glaciers to lose mass. Could you describe what happened? edit: I can also melt water below 32 degrees by adding salt to it. My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #159 October 25, 2011 QuoteI can't access Youtube. But ablation can and DOES occur at temperatures below 32 degrees. Ablation occurs at very low temperatures because of vapor pressure gradients. That’s what freeze drying is. And freezer burn. Ice can and does evaporate from the surface without “melting.” In fact, this is a process seen at a number of temperate glaciers. It’s why I call it “ablation” rather than “melting.” Less ice today than last month does not mean it melted. Other processes completely unrelated to “heat” differences cause glaciers to lose mass. Could you describe what happened? edit: I can also melt water below 32 degrees by adding salt to it. It shows running water.. as in MELT water flowing in channels across the very top of the ice sheet.. into what was a huge FRESH water lake.. on top of the glacier in Greenland that flowed into a crack and tunnel system called a moulin. http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn16741-witness-a-journey-to-the-bottom-of-an-ice-sheet.html NOTE.. keywords FRESH WATER... MELTING GREENLAND Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,150 #160 October 25, 2011 QuoteQuoteQuote Lemme know when the temp starts going up again, will ya? It's only been 13 years now. Contradicting yourself again! Nope. Temp anomaly is *still* above Mann's arbitrary baseline. Relevance FAIL. I guess you didn't look at your own graph posted in this very thread, which definitely shows warming continuing after 1998.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,150 #161 October 25, 2011 QuoteI can't access Youtube. But ablation can and DOES occur at temperatures below 32 degrees. Ablation occurs at very low temperatures because of vapor pressure gradients. Suggest you look up the Clapeyron equation if you think temperature is not a factor in this.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #162 October 25, 2011 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuote Lemme know when the temp starts going up again, will ya? It's only been 13 years now. Contradicting yourself again! Nope. Temp anomaly is *still* above Mann's arbitrary baseline. Relevance FAIL. I guess you didn't look at your own graph posted in this very thread, which definitely shows warming continuing after 1998. Make sure to let me know when they get back above the 98 peak...which is STILL lower than the MWP, which evidently was caused by Vikings driving SUV's.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,150 #163 October 25, 2011 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuote Lemme know when the temp starts going up again, will ya? It's only been 13 years now. Contradicting yourself again! Nope. Temp anomaly is *still* above Mann's arbitrary baseline. Relevance FAIL. I guess you didn't look at your own graph posted in this very thread, which definitely shows warming continuing after 1998. Make sure to let me know when they get back above the 98 peak...which is STILL lower than the MWP, which evidently was caused by Vikings driving SUV's. I guess you didn't look carefully enough at your own linked graph, posted in this very thread, which definitely shows warming continuing after 1998.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lawrocket 3 #164 October 25, 2011 So you’re saying that ice melts in the summer? That’s a shocker. I had no idea. Of course, I did not say that the temperature was always under freezing. Just that the temperature of 14 degrees is the yearly average. Or is it mean? “Under the summer sun, the surface of Greenland's ice sheet melts into pools and lakes. The water is darker than the reflective ice it sits in, so it absorbs more heat from the sun.” There is no shocker here. “Summer sun.” “”darker…absorbs more heat.” Yeah, that’s kind of the way it has been for longer than we’ve been measuring it. Also please note the physics of the water flow – energy. Potential is being converted to kinetic. Not only is the sun’s heat melting it, but the movement of the water is also melting it. Even water flowing over ice has friction. But yes, the sun does, in fact, melt ice in Greenland in the summer. I also found it interesting that the rubber duckies didn’t make it out of the ice pack. They don’t know whether they were pulverized or just haven’t had an outlet. There are lots of unanswered questions. I would be interested in seeing some video of the moulins from the centuries past. I don’t think moulins are a post-industrial age thing. And remember when that glacier calved an ice tongue four times the size of Manahttan? The horror? That’s a drop in the bucket considering that the Arctic, as we speak, is creating a Manhattan of ice every minute. Furthermore, the fact that a glacier tongue that massive calved into the ocean says something: “That glacier is not retreating.” You know what a retreating glacier does? If your answer it, “moves toward the ocean and breaks off in it” then you are not correct. A retreating glacier might stop before it hits the ocean. In ten years, maybe it stops 5 feet from the ocean. In 50 years, the glacier is maybe 25 feet from the ocean. But note this – meltwater accelerating a glacier would be interesting to see. Is there any indication that this ice pack up top is thinning? Well, yes. During the summer months. But then it gets replenished in the fall, winter and spring. We don’t look out to our mountain peaks and see clear mountain tops and glaciers down low. So these moulins are simply another one of the high-visibility things. “Look at all this water melting!” I say, “No shit. You’re on a fucking sheet of ice 1,500 miles long and almost 700 miles wide at its widest point that averages over a mile thick. And that’s just the ice sheet! Add another 30k square miles of glaciers toward the coast and you’re talking a lot of water locked up. The ice sheet is so massive that it has pushed the land under it down and is contained by mountains on its periphery. And there’s a surprise that a bunch of water melts in the summer? My goodness, Jeanne. In your neck of the woods, are you surprised when frozen lakes melts in the spring and summer? The massive melt of snow we had in the Sierras this year led to spectacular waterfalls and swollen rivers in Yosemite that killed several people. It WASN’T because it was any hotter – the weather here this summer was actually rather mild. Rather, it was because we had so much damned snow TO melt. This is a simple concept that ends up being lost in the climate debate. “Look at all the ice melting” no longer means, “summer in Greenland.” It now means “global warming.” My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #165 October 25, 2011 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuote Lemme know when the temp starts going up again, will ya? It's only been 13 years now. Contradicting yourself again! Nope. Temp anomaly is *still* above Mann's arbitrary baseline. Relevance FAIL. I guess you didn't look at your own graph posted in this very thread, which definitely shows warming continuing after 1998. Make sure to let me know when they get back above the 98 peak...which is STILL lower than the MWP, which evidently was caused by Vikings driving SUV's. I guess you didn't look carefully enough at your own linked graph, posted in this very thread, which definitely shows warming continuing after 1998. Relevance FAIL. Show where I said all warming has stopped, perfesser.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,150 #166 October 25, 2011 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuote Lemme know when the temp starts going up again, will ya? It's only been 13 years now. Contradicting yourself again! Nope. Temp anomaly is *still* above Mann's arbitrary baseline. Relevance FAIL. I guess you didn't look at your own graph posted in this very thread, which definitely shows warming continuing after 1998. Make sure to let me know when they get back above the 98 peak...which is STILL lower than the MWP, which evidently was caused by Vikings driving SUV's. I guess you didn't look carefully enough at your own linked graph, posted in this very thread, which definitely shows warming continuing after 1998. Relevance FAIL. Show where I said all warming has stopped, perfesser. So you agree warming is continuing, in accordance with the graph you posted.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,150 #167 October 25, 2011 QuoteSo you’re saying that ice melts in the summer? That’s a shocker. I had no idea. Of course, I did not say that the temperature was always under freezing. Just that the temperature of 14 degrees is the yearly average. Or is it mean? “Under the summer sun, the surface of Greenland's ice sheet melts into pools and lakes. The water is darker than the reflective ice it sits in, so it absorbs more heat from the sun.” There is no shocker here. “Summer sun.” “”darker…absorbs more heat.” Yeah, that’s kind of the way it has been for longer than we’ve been measuring it. Also please note the physics of the water flow – energy. Potential is being converted to kinetic. Not only is the sun’s heat melting it, but the movement of the water is also melting it. Even water flowing over ice has friction. But yes, the sun does, in fact, melt ice in Greenland in the summer. I also found it interesting that the rubber duckies didn’t make it out of the ice pack. They don’t know whether they were pulverized or just haven’t had an outlet. There are lots of unanswered questions. I would be interested in seeing some video of the moulins from the centuries past. I don’t think moulins are a post-industrial age thing. And remember when that glacier calved an ice tongue four times the size of Manahttan? The horror? That’s a drop in the bucket considering that the Arctic, as we speak, is creating a Manhattan of ice every minute. Furthermore, the fact that a glacier tongue that massive calved into the ocean says something: “That glacier is not retreating.” You know what a retreating glacier does? If your answer it, “moves toward the ocean and breaks off in it” then you are not correct. A retreating glacier might stop before it hits the ocean. In ten years, maybe it stops 5 feet from the ocean. In 50 years, the glacier is maybe 25 feet from the ocean. But note this – meltwater accelerating a glacier would be interesting to see. Is there any indication that this ice pack up top is thinning? Well, yes. During the summer months. But then it gets replenished in the fall, winter and spring. We don’t look out to our mountain peaks and see clear mountain tops and glaciers down low. So these moulins are simply another one of the high-visibility things. “Look at all this water melting!” I say, “No shit. You’re on a fucking sheet of ice 1,500 miles long and almost 700 miles wide at its widest point that averages over a mile thick. And that’s just the ice sheet! Add another 30k square miles of glaciers toward the coast and you’re talking a lot of water locked up. The ice sheet is so massive that it has pushed the land under it down and is contained by mountains on its periphery. And there’s a surprise that a bunch of water melts in the summer? My goodness, Jeanne. In your neck of the woods, are you surprised when frozen lakes melts in the spring and summer? The massive melt of snow we had in the Sierras this year led to spectacular waterfalls and swollen rivers in Yosemite that killed several people. It WASN’T because it was any hotter – the weather here this summer was actually rather mild. Rather, it was because we had so much damned snow TO melt. This is a simple concept that ends up being lost in the climate debate. “Look at all the ice melting” no longer means, “summer in Greenland.” It now means “global warming.” So how does it compare from one decade to the next, during the summer season?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #168 October 25, 2011 Hey its not me that keeps blithing on and on and on about A B L A T I O N. I have spent a fairly sizable portion of my life in the mountains.. and yes I know what ablation is.. but I assure you... glaciers melt... and many that were here 40 years ago.. are LONG GONE. I have spent some quality time in the far north above the Arctic Circle... nothing like working in a daytime that never goes away. There is just something strange about wandering around on a glacier... in shorts and a tank...workin on one of the best tans I ever got.... while never getting a shiver at all.. in fact... perspiration. Yeah... that whole 15 degree F thing..... BBBBBZZZZZTTTTT wroooooooooooooooong. The trouble is though.. you and Mikee do not see it happening and do not want to KNOW its happening because you wish to believe its not happening. Personally... If people want to stick their heads in a snowbank till it melts... no problem Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lawrocket 3 #169 October 25, 2011 Suggest you look up the Clapeyron equation if you think temperature is not a factor in this. Of course it is. Unless it’s absolute zero, temperature plays a role. (Of course we can’t reach absolute zero – third law of thermodynamics). The phase transitions are a function of pressure and temperature. While I’m not familiar with the equation, I know that temperature plays an important role in it. I’m not discounting the role of temperature in any way. But I am suggesting that the phase transition of water from solid to gas is a bit more complicated that “it’s warmer.” I’ll look at this. (Note to all: I will never question kallend’s expertise with regard to material phases) My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #170 October 25, 2011 QuoteSo you agree warming is continuing, in accordance with the graph you posted. No. I stated that temps are still above Mann's 'baseline' while being below the 1998 peak. Really, the silliness you go through to try to play your 'gotcha' games is just embarassing to watch.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,150 #171 October 25, 2011 Quote Lemme know when the temp starts going up again, will ya? It's only been 13 years now. Your weaseling is NOT very clever.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lawrocket 3 #172 October 25, 2011 Quote but I assure you... glaciers melt... and many that were here 40 years ago.. are LONG GONE. And I assure you that many that were there 200 years ago were gone forty years ago. I have spent some quality time in the far north above the Arctic Circle... Quote I haven’t. I sunburn under a full moon when it’s overcast, so summer is out. And I have profound Reynaud’s so winter is bad juju for me. QuoteThere is just something strange about wandering around on a glacier... in shorts and a tank...workin on one of the best tans I ever got.... while never getting a shiver at all.. in fact... perspiration. Yeah... that whole 15 degree F thing..... BBBBBZZZZZTTTTT wroooooooooooooooong. I didn’t say it doesn’t ever get to 40 degrees. There are plenty of places on Greenland that average summer high temperatures in the 50’s or 60’s. QuoteThe trouble is though.. you and Mikee do not see it happening and do not want to KNOW its happening because you wish to believe its not happening. You’ve also got the gift of telepathy? Dang. It appears that your telepathy is warped, however, by the heat distortions of the atmosphere caused by CO2. Because I keep saying, “It’s happening.” Where I have my problem with you is your suggestion that it’s been happening since you got there. I hate to break this to you, but there is a whole 14 billion years or so of existence that occurred before you arrived in the northwest. Perhaps in 1970, had you bothered to ask anybody, those people might bemoan the loss of glacial mass in the last 40 years. That’s all I’m saying. Not that the loss is not happening but that it’s been happening since before you moved there. My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mnealtx 0 #173 October 25, 2011 QuoteQuote Lemme know when the temp starts going up again, will ya? It's only been 13 years now. Your weaseling is NOT very clever. "The fact is that we can't account for the lack of warming at the moment and it is a travesty that we can't." - Kevin Trenberth Your lame attempt to discredit is even LESS so.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,150 #174 October 25, 2011 QuoteQuoteQuote Lemme know when the temp starts going up again, will ya? It's only been 13 years now. Your weaseling is NOT very clever. "The fact is that we can't account for the lack of warming at the moment and it is a travesty that we can't." - Kevin Trenberth Your lame attempt to discredit is even LESS so. Ummm YOU posted the link to the graph showing warming continuing more recently than 13 years ago. Sucks for the Koch brothers that they funded the study that showed GW is happening. "In my case, one cherry-picked email quote has gone viral and at last check it was featured in over 107,000 items (in Google). Here is the quote: "The fact is that we can't account for the lack of warming at the moment and it is a travesty that we can't." It is amazing to see this particular quote lambasted so often. It stems from a paper I published this year bemoaning our inability to effectively monitor the energy flows associated with short-term climate variability. It is quite clear from the paper that I was not questioning the link between anthropogenic greenhouse gas emissions and warming, or even suggesting that recent temperatures are unusual in the context of short-term natural variability.", Kevin Trenberth... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mnealtx 0 #175 October 25, 2011 QuoteUmmm YOU posted the link to the graph showing warming continuing more recently than 13 years ago. Continuing? It's higher than the 98 peak? I find that hard to believe, given the decided LACK of self-congratulatory threads from you and bill. Must suck to have an argument that lame....I can see why you're so bitter. QuoteSucks for the Koch brothers that they funded the study that showed GW is happening. The one that the statisticians are ALREADY blowing holes in? The one that was released BEFORE being peer reviewed? The one whose lead scientist wrote this, just last week? "Are you a global warming skeptic? There are plenty of good reasons why you might be. As many as 757 stations in the United States recorded net surface-temperature cooling over the past century. Many are concentrated in the southeast, where some people attribute tornadoes and hurricanes to warming. The temperature-station quality is largely awful. The most important stations in the U.S. are included in the Department of Energy's Historical Climatology Network. A careful survey of these stations by a team led by meteorologist Anthony Watts showed that 70% of these stations have such poor siting that, by the U.S. government's own measure, they result in temperature uncertainties of between two and five degrees Celsius or more. We do not know how much worse are the stations in the developing world. Using data from all these poor stations, the U.N.'s Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change estimates an average global 0.64ºC temperature rise in the past 50 years, "most" of which the IPCC says is due to humans. Yet the margin of error for the stations is at least three times larger than the estimated warming."Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. 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mnealtx 0 #173 October 25, 2011 QuoteQuote Lemme know when the temp starts going up again, will ya? It's only been 13 years now. Your weaseling is NOT very clever. "The fact is that we can't account for the lack of warming at the moment and it is a travesty that we can't." - Kevin Trenberth Your lame attempt to discredit is even LESS so.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,150 #174 October 25, 2011 QuoteQuoteQuote Lemme know when the temp starts going up again, will ya? It's only been 13 years now. Your weaseling is NOT very clever. "The fact is that we can't account for the lack of warming at the moment and it is a travesty that we can't." - Kevin Trenberth Your lame attempt to discredit is even LESS so. Ummm YOU posted the link to the graph showing warming continuing more recently than 13 years ago. Sucks for the Koch brothers that they funded the study that showed GW is happening. "In my case, one cherry-picked email quote has gone viral and at last check it was featured in over 107,000 items (in Google). Here is the quote: "The fact is that we can't account for the lack of warming at the moment and it is a travesty that we can't." It is amazing to see this particular quote lambasted so often. It stems from a paper I published this year bemoaning our inability to effectively monitor the energy flows associated with short-term climate variability. It is quite clear from the paper that I was not questioning the link between anthropogenic greenhouse gas emissions and warming, or even suggesting that recent temperatures are unusual in the context of short-term natural variability.", Kevin Trenberth... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #175 October 25, 2011 QuoteUmmm YOU posted the link to the graph showing warming continuing more recently than 13 years ago. Continuing? It's higher than the 98 peak? I find that hard to believe, given the decided LACK of self-congratulatory threads from you and bill. Must suck to have an argument that lame....I can see why you're so bitter. QuoteSucks for the Koch brothers that they funded the study that showed GW is happening. The one that the statisticians are ALREADY blowing holes in? The one that was released BEFORE being peer reviewed? The one whose lead scientist wrote this, just last week? "Are you a global warming skeptic? There are plenty of good reasons why you might be. As many as 757 stations in the United States recorded net surface-temperature cooling over the past century. Many are concentrated in the southeast, where some people attribute tornadoes and hurricanes to warming. The temperature-station quality is largely awful. The most important stations in the U.S. are included in the Department of Energy's Historical Climatology Network. A careful survey of these stations by a team led by meteorologist Anthony Watts showed that 70% of these stations have such poor siting that, by the U.S. government's own measure, they result in temperature uncertainties of between two and five degrees Celsius or more. We do not know how much worse are the stations in the developing world. Using data from all these poor stations, the U.N.'s Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change estimates an average global 0.64ºC temperature rise in the past 50 years, "most" of which the IPCC says is due to humans. Yet the margin of error for the stations is at least three times larger than the estimated warming."Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
