kallend 2,150 #126 October 24, 2011 Quote As a last resort you can visit a university library and dig the references out of the stacks. This will amaze most of the students who have no idea that a journal is a physical object. You'd also be amazed at the number of students who think that having a copy of paper is a substitute for reading it.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
StreetScooby 5 #127 October 24, 2011 NewScientist just published a good summary article on this topic today: Climate change: What we do – and don't – know It's pretty well done. You'll need to sign up, but it's free.We are all engines of karma Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
StreetScooby 5 #128 October 24, 2011 Quote For individual papers you can check the author(s) websites, they frequently post PDFs or preprints and the journals don't seem to object. If you can find someone currently enrolled in a college, they can generally get the papers for free throught their library's journal access program or can request them through inter-library loan. Also the journals generally send the author a hundred or so courtesy copies. If you contact the corresponding author, they are usually happy to mail you one. As a last resort you can visit a university library and dig the references out of the stacks. This will amaze most of the students who have no idea that a journal is a physical object. Thanks, I wouldn't have thought of most of these approaches. My town library has arranged for an inter-library loan for me to get the warming papers. I was actually thinking about heading to NYC libraries to spend some time in the stacks, again (...used to really enjoy doing that). Then I remembered they don't actually let you into the stacks in NYC. We are all engines of karma Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #129 October 24, 2011 Hate to disagree but this in NOT well done When it starts from this QuoteDespite this, we can be certain about some things. For a start, the planet is warming, and human activity is largely responsible. it shows a beginning bias"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
StreetScooby 5 #130 October 24, 2011 Quote Hate to disagree but this in NOT well done I said pretty well done. Yes, it can be read as biased, no question. But it also says what they don't know, which is what I was reading for. Also, the time scales are really in the hundreds of years, not decades, for some of these predictions, which is what I expected to find. I am past looking at how things are being phrased, at least in the material I'm reading. I'm looking for what is being said, and I know how to do that. I am not going to be influenced by pictures of polar bears drowning in the ocean. NewScientist is a "regular guy" site, so I'm not surprised at the "bias".We are all engines of karma Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #131 October 24, 2011 QuoteQuote Hate to disagree but this in NOT well done I said pretty well done. Yes, it can be read as biased, no question. But it also says what they don't know, which is what I was reading for. Also, the time scales are really in the hundreds of years, not decades, for some of these predictions, which is what I expected to find. I am past looking at how things are being phrased, at least in the material I'm reading. I'm looking for what is being said, and I know how to do that. I am not going to be influenced by pictures of polar bears drowning in the ocean. NewScientist is a "regular guy" site, so I'm not surprised at the bias. One thing to look into then, is the time relationship to historical high and low levels of CO2 and that relationship to temp In the past, (as it is today I feel) CO2 levels followed (or lagged behind) the increase or decrease of temperature changes A point Mike was trying to make earlier Anyway, I am looking forward to what conclusions you draw from investigations Marc"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
StreetScooby 5 #132 October 24, 2011 Quote In the past, (as it is today I feel) CO2 levels followed (or lagged behind) the increase or decrease of temperature changes My understanding right now is they can do both. As temperature increases, sinks that rely on CO2 solubility will release retained CO2, since solubility decreases with temperature. By itself, CO2 has been shown to increase the avg. temperature of the earth through the green house effect. Please feel free to comment and/or ask questions. The reason I'm doing this is to learn, and everyone is welcome to participate. The more the merrier. I'm going to get to the "bottom" of this, and make my own mind up whether "alarmism" is warranted.We are all engines of karma Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #133 October 24, 2011 QuoteQuote In the past, (as it is today I feel) CO2 levels followed (or lagged behind) the increase or decrease of temperature changes My understanding right now is they can do both. As temperature increases, sinks that rely on CO2 solubility will release retained CO2, since solubility decreases with temperature. By itself, CO2 has been shown to increase the avg. temperature of the earth through the green house effect. Please feel free to comment and/or ask questions. The reason I'm doing this is to learn, and everyone is welcome to participate. The more the merrier. I'm going to get to the "bottom" of this, and make my own mind up whether "alarmism" is warranted. Can you post a link to something that shows, in the past, where temps lagged CO2 increases?"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
StreetScooby 5 #134 October 24, 2011 Quote Can you post a link to something that shows, in the past, where temps lagged CO2 increases? So far, I've avoided papers that focus on data regression of historical temps. My interest isn't there, yet. The Warming Papers has a few papers on this that I plan to review once the library gets my copy. Hansen, et. al., make use of the phrase "detrending" a fair amount. Not really sure what that means, and I'm hoping one of these original time-tested papers gives me insight into that. To me, it seems to be a reasonably controversial topic, at this point. When I get to that point, I'll most certainly share what I've learned (with links).We are all engines of karma Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
StreetScooby 5 #135 October 24, 2011 Quote http://wattsupwiththat.com/...-still-drought-free/ Thanks for the link. We are all engines of karma Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #136 October 24, 2011 OMG, it's all due to the Post Office!! Link Well, makes as much sense as Amazon's post about AGW and the current drought... Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,150 #137 October 24, 2011 Quote Can you post a link to something that shows, in the past, where temps lagged CO2 increases? Can you tell us when, in the past, any species pumped 30BILLION tons of CO2 into the atmosphere each year, year after year.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #138 October 24, 2011 QuoteQuote Can you post a link to something that shows, in the past, where temps lagged CO2 increases? Can you tell us when, in the past, any species pumped 30BILLION tons of CO2 into the atmosphere each year, year after year. Exactly you have substantiated my point Thank you"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,150 #139 October 24, 2011 QuoteQuoteQuote Can you post a link to something that shows, in the past, where temps lagged CO2 increases? Can you tell us when, in the past, any species pumped 30BILLION tons of CO2 into the atmosphere each year, year after year. Exactly you have substantiated my point Thank you You don't have a point.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #140 October 24, 2011 Quote Quote Quote Quote Can you post a link to something that shows, in the past, where temps lagged CO2 increases? Can you tell us when, in the past, any species pumped 30BILLION tons of CO2 into the atmosphere each year, year after year. Exactly you have substantiated my point Thank you You don't have a point. If true, then nor do you"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #141 October 24, 2011 QuoteQuote Can you post a link to something that shows, in the past, where temps lagged CO2 increases? Can you tell us when, in the past, any species pumped 30BILLION tons of CO2 into the atmosphere each year, year after year. So the MWP was due to those damned Vikings and their SUV's?Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
StreetScooby 5 #142 October 24, 2011 Quote So the MWP was due to those damned Vikings and their SUV's? I believe one of the time tested papers in the Warming Papers discusses this. If it does, I'll be sure to post that info. Seems to be a point of "contention", for the lack of a better phrase. BTW, it'll be about 2 weeks before the library gets the book.We are all engines of karma Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #143 October 24, 2011 Quote OMG, it's all due to the Post Office!! Link Well, makes as much sense as Amazon's post about AGW and the current drought... Hey I am good with Texas being a desert.. and gee it looks like its returning to another Dust Bowl just like the 30's.... I guess CA is in for another spate of Okies and Texicans who can no longer stay on the land. By the way... that was postulated 30 years ago should the climate change and start to resemble the other similar latitudes where deserts are found by virtue of trade winds in Asia, South America, and Africa. The big winners will be Russia and Canada as the areas that can grow crops move northward. Oh thats right ya cain't see it.. so it ain't happenin.. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
StreetScooby 5 #144 October 24, 2011 Quote that was postulated 30 years ago... One of the more interesting tidbits I've come across is that AGW was postulated in the 1890s by Svante Arrhenius, a Swedish scientist who was one of the founders of physical chemistry. From here: The Discovery of Global Warming Quote The Carbon Dioxide Greenhouse Effect In the 19th century, scientists realized that gases in the atmosphere cause a "greenhouse effect" which affects the planet's temperature. These scientists were interested chiefly in the possibility that a lower level of carbon dioxide gas might explain the ice ages of the distant past. At the turn of the century, Svante Arrhenius calculated that emissions from human industry might someday bring a global warming. Other scientists dismissed his idea as faulty. In 1938, G.S. Callendar argued that the level of carbon dioxide was climbing and raising global temperature, but most scientists found his arguments implausible. It was almost by chance that a few researchers in the 1950s discovered that global warming truly was possible. In the early 1960s, C.D. Keeling measured the level of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere: it was rising fast. Researchers began to take an interest, struggling to understand how the level of carbon dioxide had changed in the past, and how the level was influenced by chemical and biological forces. They found that the gas plays a crucial role in climate change, so that the rising level could gravely affect our future. (This essay covers only developments relating directly to carbon dioxide, with a separate essay for Other Greenhouse Gases. Theories are discussed in the essay on Simple Models of Climate. We are all engines of karma Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #145 October 24, 2011 QuoteHey I am good with Texas being a desert.. and gee it looks like its returning to another Dust Bowl just like the 30's.... I guess CA is in for another spate of Okies and Texicans who can no longer stay on the land. Weather != climate, Jeanne. 4 years ago there was no drought in Texas. QuoteBy the way... that was postulated 30 years ago should the climate change and start to resemble the other similar latitudes where deserts are found by virtue of trade winds in Asia, South America, and Africa. The big winners will be Russia and Canada as the areas that can grow crops move northward. Oh thats right ya cain't see it.. so it ain't happenin.. Is that before or after that 75m sea rise you predicted was going to happen 'any time now'?Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #146 October 24, 2011 QuoteQuoteHey I am good with Texas being a desert.. and gee it looks like its returning to another Dust Bowl just like the 30's.... I guess CA is in for another spate of Okies and Texicans who can no longer stay on the land. Weather != climate, Jeanne. 4 years ago there was no drought in Texas. QuoteBy the way... that was postulated 30 years ago should the climate change and start to resemble the other similar latitudes where deserts are found by virtue of trade winds in Asia, South America, and Africa. The big winners will be Russia and Canada as the areas that can grow crops move northward. Oh thats right ya cain't see it.. so it ain't happenin.. Is that before or after that 75m sea rise you predicted was going to happen 'any time now'? Just keep tellin yourself that... I think history will show just how GOAT FUCK STUPID those who keep blithering about "the science is not settled" will appear to their childrens children. If the ice in the polar regions keeps melting at the rates it is accelerating to... just give it a bit more sea rise.... if that mobilizes the ice off the basement rocks... and you get more water under the glaciers.... what happens when you put ice... a lot of it in water again??? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #147 October 24, 2011 QuoteIf the ice in the polar regions keeps melting at the rates it is accelerating to... just give it a bit more sea rise.... Just like in the 1920's, when there was open ocean at the North Pole? Quoteif that mobilizes the ice off the basement rocks... and you get more water under the glaciers.... what happens when you put ice... a lot of it in water again??? Looks like a whole lotta 'ifs' have to happen for your scenario to play out.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #148 October 24, 2011 QuoteQuoteIf the ice in the polar regions keeps melting at the rates it is accelerating to... just give it a bit more sea rise.... Just like in the 1920's, when there was open ocean at the North Pole? Quoteif that mobilizes the ice off the basement rocks... and you get more water under the glaciers.... what happens when you put ice... a lot of it in water again??? Looks like a whole lotta 'ifs' have to happen for your scenario to play out. Nope.. WHEN's Perhaps you should have had some science classes..ANY science classes Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #149 October 24, 2011 QuoteQuoteLooks like a whole lotta 'ifs' have to happen for your scenario to play out. Nope.. WHEN's Uh-huh. QuotePerhaps you should have had some science classes..ANY science classes Lemme know when the temp starts going up again, will ya? It's only been 13 years now. I'd say "this might prove instructional" but it's obvious you can't process the info.... regardless, I'll add it for those who *CAN* be reached. LinkMike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,150 #150 October 25, 2011 Quote Lemme know when the temp starts going up again, will ya? It's only been 13 years now. Contradicting yourself again!... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
