popsjumper 2 #126 October 6, 2011 QuoteSince we don't know for sure either way, anything is a possibility. QuoteScience often merely assigns probabilities. Yep. And that's what it's all about. QuoteAnd in the real world, the smart money is on the probable, not the improbable. Let's hope so, eh? And, OTOH, to deny the reality of the improbable would be a mistake. To say that the improbable will never, or cannot, happen is a mistake.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,090 #127 October 6, 2011 >>Your position is a bit like saying that because we don't know the last digit >>of Pi, we can't be sure of its value and therefor "anything is a possibility." >And this synopsis would be correct. No, it wouldn't be. Science (and math) can assign probabilities to things, and sometimes - often in fact - that probability is "zero." So anything ISN'T possible. It is not possible, for example, that pi equals ten. There will be no case that a circle in euclidean space will have a diameter of one and a circumference of ten. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #128 October 6, 2011 Quote>>Your position is a bit like saying that because we don't know the last digit >>of Pi, we can't be sure of its value and therefor "anything is a possibility." >And this synopsis would be correct. No, it wouldn't be. Science (and math) can assign probabilities to things, and sometimes - often in fact - that probability is "zero." So anything ISN'T possible. It is not possible, for example, that pi equals ten. There will be no case that a circle in euclidean space will have a diameter of one and a circumference of ten. OK. Your example of mathematical impossibilities would be correct, I'd say, since we have a starting point of what is already known. I respect your mathematical certainties. Now can you apply that certainty to the discussion at hand - existence of God? You've already indicated that you apply a very low probability to that...so I don't see the relationship to the mathematical certainties you indicated.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,090 #129 October 6, 2011 >Now can you apply that certainty to the discussion at hand - existence of God? No, for several reasons, the primary one (for me) being the ambiguous nature of the question. It's easy to say that the ratio of a circle's circumference to its diameter is X - it's a lot harder to even define terms for the God question. "Does the God as described in the Bible exist?" "Well, if the literal accuracy of the Bible is a prerequisite for that - then no. We can prove that the flood did not occur to the degree described in the Bible." "Well, OK, assume that that's exaggerated. Now can he exist?" "Well, there's the story about the Earth stopping its rotation . . . ." "OK, OK, let's assume that there are a lot of exaggerations, and that the Bible's not really accurate in those details. NOW can he exist?" If you go far enough down that path the answer becomes "maybe." (Needless to say so does the possibility of a lot of gods.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Coreece 190 #130 October 6, 2011 Quote Quote Quote Quote Another one bites the dust: You're free to believe that. I disagree with it Of course, you're back...I thought you were gone, done....bit the dust. You come in here and verbally ejaculate all over the place, then get all defensive when someone tries to clean it up and then run away only to pop back in for one more jab because you just can't help yourself...jeeze...apatheism at it's finest, I guess. First you write "we proved that he's obviously not an apatheist", then you write that he's "apatheism at it's finest". Not that I'd expect any consistency of thought from a bible thumper. Oh...Sorry John. I can't say I'd expect an old, dry college professor to grasp the concept of sarcasm... Let's put it this way... Why the fuck is an "apatheist" blabing his blitherering babble about his subjective probability of God when it shouldn't even matter to him? I mean...if he was truly an apatheist, I could prove the exsistence of God tonight, and it should have absolutely no bearing on his life whatsoever...WTF?Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Coreece 190 #131 October 6, 2011 Quoteanything ISN'T possible. What about infinity? (fart)Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Coreece 190 #132 October 6, 2011 Quote Quote Given the amount of effort you've displayed in this thread about God, I must admit that you just might be the first and worst apatheist I've ever met... Now just to be fair, I just might be the worst Christian you'll ever meet. The thing I've learned about my drinking, it that the closer I come to alcohol psychosis/hallucinosis/idiosyncratic intoxication, the closer I come to having athiestic tendencies. My conclusion is that the reduction of neurotoxins into the body will result in a more meaningful and complete relationship with God. Wow, simply amazing...I never realized that this simple public cofession would actually restore me...It's been a wonderful night talking with my family...I appreciate everyones prayers, thanks...God is Great.Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Coreece 190 #133 October 6, 2011 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tto9o8hTl8I&feature=relatedYour secrets are the true reflection of who you really are... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Coreece 190 #134 October 6, 2011 Ok...sorry, One more... Answers in the begining: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1wYNFfgrXTI&ob=av2e*tear* Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marinus 0 #135 October 6, 2011 QuoteNow can you apply that certainty to the discussion at hand - existence of God? It depends on which god you're talking about. A deistic God that created the universe but doesn't interfere with it after that. Sure why not, we can talk about that, but such a god wouldn't be relevant to us at all. There's no way to put a probability on that, so if I'm not mistaken the chances of such a God existing could be anything. To us it would look like there isn't a God, so it's compatible with the reality as we know it. However, we can say something about the Christian god. Since it's in the Bible that we have to take the Bible literally, word for word, cover to cover, And there's a lot of extremely implausible things in the Bible, there's only an extremely minute probability that the Christian God exists. I acknowledge that that God could exist, but the chances of that are so extremely low I just shrug and think "Come on it's so out there that we can safely say that God doesn't exit. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marinus 0 #136 October 6, 2011 To illustrate things a bit: this is what the universe looks like according to the bible: http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_tWhSj5H4CZE/TIFUmpTYNII/AAAAAAAABnw/OA6bG6q0Jnw/s1600/heaven_of_heavens.jpg If Yaweh exists this is what the universe looks like. This means that every scientific discovery that isn't compatible with that universe is flawed. This could of course be the case, but the chances of that being true seem to be a bit remote. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
devildog 0 #137 October 6, 2011 QuoteQuoteThe only way God is truly knocked out of the picture is to show the entire Universe coming from nothing, which we haven't done . . . Actually, we have. Further, it's not all that hard to understand the basics of it. Just because you seem to have not made the effort to do so doesn't mean its not out there. Here are some of the basics to get you started; http://curiosity.discovery.com/topic/space-exploration/did-god-create-universe-episode.htm Yeah, like I said before, it's still all speculation. "What ifs, Maybes, Might, Couldas" What we have in essence, even if we allow the "it might be possible for the universe to spring into existence" is not from nothing, but from the very laws of the Universe. That's hardly coming from nothing at all. Why should those laws even exist outside where we are at? We could run that train of thought all over the place, and even the vids you linked to state we haven't the slightest clue on explaining said laws or their existence.You stop breathing for a few minutes and everyone jumps to conclusions. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
devildog 0 #138 October 6, 2011 QuoteQuoteEither way, being a theist or atheist, is never a 100% certainty. If we can't observe/measure god, nor his influence in this world, it pretty much makes god irrelevant to us humans. Plenty of religions and beliefs out there claim otherwise. It's all how you see the world. Part of the problem in designing any sort of experiment that would say, show God(s) at work in your life (say, something like, I feel blessed by God. Or, God helps me through difficult times, If I keep God's laws, I will live longer and happier, etc), is that we have nothing to compare it to. How do you know what is going on right now is either a no-God universe or a has-God universe?You stop breathing for a few minutes and everyone jumps to conclusions. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,121 #139 October 6, 2011 Quote Now can you apply that certainty to the discussion at hand - existence of God? Which one? Zeus? FSM?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marinus 0 #140 October 6, 2011 QuotePlenty of religions and beliefs out there claim otherwise. Religion is very good in making claims, however, it's not the claims I'm interested in, it's the evidence to back up those claims. QuotePart of the problem in designing any sort of experiment that would say, show God(s) at work in your life (say, something like, I feel blessed by God. Or, God helps me through difficult times, If I keep God's laws, I will live longer and happier, etc), is that we have nothing to compare it to. How do you know what is going on right now is either a no-God universe or a has-God universe? Oh we can read the Bible to look how a God-universe would look like. Seas splitting, donkeys talking, amputees regrowing limbs, Christians should be obviously blessed in measurable ways, they, for example, would be far more likely to survive cancer, believers would move mountains through faith. Etc. etc. there would be multitudes of well-documented miracles. I've yet to find proof for the first documented miracle. This universe looks like God isn't there, it looks like we're alone. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shropshire 0 #141 October 6, 2011 Quote This universe looks like God isn't there, She probably just fell asleep........ what with all them boring sermons, miserable psalms, praying, grovelling on their knees and that 'averting their eyes' thing that they do ... (Thanks Python team) Quote it looks like we're alone. and that's what probably scares 'some' people - well tough titties on them (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
winsor 236 #142 October 7, 2011 QuoteQuoteQuoteThe only way God is truly knocked out of the picture is to show the entire Universe coming from nothing, which we haven't done . . . Actually, we have. Further, it's not all that hard to understand the basics of it. Just because you seem to have not made the effort to do so doesn't mean its not out there. Here are some of the basics to get you started; http://curiosity.discovery.com/topic/space-exploration/did-god-create-universe-episode.htm Yeah, like I said before, it's still all speculation. "What ifs, Maybes, Might, Couldas" What we have in essence, even if we allow the "it might be possible for the universe to spring into existence" is not from nothing, but from the very laws of the Universe. That's hardly coming from nothing at all. Why should those laws even exist outside where we are at? We could run that train of thought all over the place, and even the vids you linked to state we haven't the slightest clue on explaining said laws or their existence. If everything you believe is bullshit layered upon bullshit, I can see how you might assume that everyone else is subject to similar limitations. That is, however, not the case. The argument that an in invisible friend MUST exist to account for the existence of everything, since it is impossible for anything to exist without explanation - except for an invisible friend - is not just invalid, it is insane. BSBD, Winsor Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #143 October 7, 2011 QuoteYeah, like I said before, it's still all speculation. Not really. You just have to start simply and understand a few, provable, basics and other things quickly fall into place. They really do. Quote"What ifs, Maybes, Might, Couldas" What we have in essence, even if we allow the "it might be possible for the universe to spring into existence" is not from nothing, but from the very laws of the Universe. That's hardly coming from nothing at all. Actually it is. It all comes from nothing. Furthermore, it's not all that abstract and follows a very logical progression from Big Bang, to the creation of the solar system, to life, to us chatting about it on the internet. There aren't really any missing links. There isn't really anything requires any intelligent design or gods. No "What ifs, Maybes, Might, Couldas" -- it's all an inevitable consequence of physics and chemistry. All 13,750,000,000 years of it leading up to this point we're living in right now. All of it, what our great grandparents might have called the "mysteries of the universe," available for anyone to understand if they choose to.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marinus 0 #144 October 7, 2011 Quoteand that's what probably scares 'some' people - well tough titties on them I wasn't scared, but I felt kind of empty when the last remnants of my faith evaporated around noon on the 26th of June 2007. By then my faith was reduced to "There must be something", so it wasn't that big a loss, but nonetheless a loss. I think it lasted for a couple of days, and then I decided that my new view on life didn't change that much for me. I mainly felt stupid for believing for decades. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RonD1120 62 #145 October 7, 2011 Quote The argument that an in invisible friend MUST exist to account for the existence of everything, since it is impossible for anything to exist without explanation - except for an invisible friend - is not just invalid, it is insane. BSBD, Winsor Here is your explanation. I just found it the other day. It gave me a chuckle.Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beowulf 1 #146 October 7, 2011 It would be funnier if that is actually what athiests believed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RonD1120 62 #147 October 7, 2011 QuoteIt would be funnier if that is actually what athiests believed. Please explain.Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beowulf 1 #148 October 7, 2011 It's been explained before, but you don't seem to want to understand it. Try researching evolution and understanding it's details. You will find there is no magic involved. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RonD1120 62 #149 October 7, 2011 No humor there.Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beowulf 1 #150 October 7, 2011 I never said your joke wasn't funny. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
