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[popsjumper 2]

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Just don't give him the death penalty.
That would be wrong.

Not in Texas.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

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My wife has had to order and perform procedures which terminated the pregnancey for life of the mother issues. That's not what I'm talking about.

Terminated the pregnancy? Does that mean that your wife has killed babies?

Yes. She has had to make the decision to save one life over the other. Either that, or the mother would have died. Then, there would have been two deaths instead of only one. However, I am only talking about prior to viability. Reasons can include rejection, premature natural delivery without being able to adequately stop it, water breaking prematurely, baby dying for whatever reason in the uterus causing infection, etc. I'm not a Physician but there are indications for such measures...all of which are medical in nature and not of convenience. Added: uncontrolled gestational diabetes, hypertension leading to eclampsia (seizure activity, protein in urine, possible death of mother), etc.

Added also: And each of those rare times haunts her every day...brings her to tears...regardless of when it occurred. Again, it's rare...but it does happen...and the physician has got to make the hard choices sometimes.

Fair enough. I guess I just found it interesting that you were talking about killing babies and then it suddenly became "terminating the pregnancy." Also, I am curious if the physician actually makes such a decision, or if it is left to the mother (or father)?

Anyhow, I'll agree that it's a "baby" in an unborn stage. I haven't met too many pregnant women (who actually want to be pregnant) that go around referring to their fetus, or buying fetus clothes, or reading through fetus name books, or painting the fetus's room, etc. And if these women have a miscarriage, we're not likely to say, "Don't cry about it; it was just a fetus." We usually acknowledge that she lost a baby.

OK, so abortion is killing a baby, or terminating a pregnancy, depending on which wording you prefer. You acknowledge that there are instances where it is acceptable to kill a baby, so you're close to the same page as some pro-choicers; we just vary on when it's acceptable and what can be accomplished with law.

[DaVinci 0]

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Whatever goes on inside a woman's body is NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS. Nor is it the government's business.

Yes or no Doc... Would you support an abortion up to the point the baby pops out?

Simple question and I am asking for a Yes or No answer.

[DaVinci 0]

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It's funny how those that are usually so opposed to government intervention in our lives are so insistent on government being involved in a woman's reproductive organs.

Its funny how those who dislike capital punishment are so willing to kill an unborn baby.

[DaVinci 0]

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>So, you would support an abortion up to the point the baby pops out?

I wouldn't, and I'd do everything I could to talk her out of it. But in the end it's her decision.

So if a woman who was one week away from giving birth wanted the fetus terminated.... You think that is is fine for her to do it?

[DaVinci 0]

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I could swear we sorted this out in the 70's.

Just like we sorted out that Capital punishment was legal.

Just like we sorted out that marijuana is illegal.

Still think that we should just ignore the issues?

[jaybird18c 24]

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Fair enough. I guess I just found it interesting that you were talking about killing babies and then it suddenly became "terminating the pregnancy." Also, I am curious if the physician actually makes such a decision, or if it is left to the mother (or father)?

Anyhow, I'll agree that it's a "baby" in an unborn stage. I haven't met too many pregnant women (who actually want to be pregnant) that go around referring to their fetus, or buying fetus clothes, or reading through fetus name books, or painting the fetus's room, etc. And if these women have a miscarriage, we're not likely to say, "Don't cry about it; it was just a fetus." We usually acknowledge that she lost a baby.

OK, so abortion is killing a baby, or terminating a pregnancy, depending on which wording you prefer. You acknowledge that there are instances where it is acceptable to kill a baby, so you're close to the same page as some pro-choicers; we just vary on when it's acceptable and what can be accomplished with law.

Reacting to a medical emergency to save the life of a mother is very different from having an abortion because you think or someone else thinks you're too young to take care of a baby, just not ready because it will alter your lifestyle or your body in some way, because you refuse to offer your baby for adoption, don't want to quit taking drugs, can't afford it right now, etc... If it's a baby, then it's murder to kill it for reasons such as those. The other still results in a baby being killed. However, the alternative is a dead mother also. Hard decisions must be made. That's why they get paid the big bucks. People say that physicians get paid too much. I disagree. With the number of hours they work (at least my wife does) at ALL hours of the day and night and the level of responsibility placed on their heads (the buck stops with them), they don't get paid enough. In OB/GYN practice, I'm talking about extreme highs and extreme lows. The outcome is not always perfect and there is a lot of remorse involved even if there was no alternative.

I'm also not talking about the sort of procedure that you might be imagining with regard to pregnancy termination. I'm talking about situations where you might induce labor with medications when you know the baby will not survive because the mother is going to die otherwise. Either that, or a c-section. Either way, the baby dies and it's tragic. However, consider the alternative. Sometimes, the choice has to be made. Disturbing either way. Just a sad consequence of living in a fallen and imperfect world.

[DaVinci 0]

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The fact that nature aborts millions of human babies a year in the US isn't pertinent when people ask whether it's evil and unnatural?

People die of natural causes every year.... Does that mean you should be allowed to kill someone walking down the street?

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Reacting to a medical emergency to save the life of a mother is very different from having an abortion because you think or someone else thinks you're too young to take care of a baby, just not ready because it will alter your lifestyle or your body in some way, because you refuse to offer your baby for adoption, don't want to quit taking drugs, can't afford it right now, etc...

What about when a woman is pregnant from rape?

[billvon 3,080]

>People die of natural causes every year.... Does that mean you should be allowed to
>kill someone walking down the street?

Nope.

[billvon 3,080]

>So if a woman who was one week away from giving birth wanted the fetus
>terminated.... You think that is is fine for her to do it?

Fine? No. If it would save her life? Perhaps. If it would reduce the risk to her life, or the other child she was carrying? Maybe. But again, that's up to her and her doctor, not you.

[jaybird18c 24]

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Reacting to a medical emergency to save the life of a mother is very different from having an abortion because you think or someone else thinks you're too young to take care of a baby, just not ready because it will alter your lifestyle or your body in some way, because you refuse to offer your baby for adoption, don't want to quit taking drugs, can't afford it right now, etc...

What about when a woman is pregnant from rape?

Tragic but what did the baby do to deserve death in that situation? Why not give the baby up for adoption?

[billvon 3,080]

>Why not give the baby up for adoption?

That is an excellent option, one I would support. But again, it's not up to you; it's up to her.

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Tragic but what did the baby do to deserve death in that situation?

What do the babies do to deserve death when your wife kills them? What did the raped woman do to deserve to have to carry a rapist's baby, potentially putting her own life in danger, and very likely causing her much more trauma than she's already been through?

[DaVinci 0]

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>People die of natural causes every year.... Does that mean you should be allowed to
>kill someone walking down the street?

Nope.

So you just discounted your own argument.

[billvon 3,080]

>So you just discounted your own argument.

Nope. You have, once again, substituted your own imaginary argument for anything I have said - and discounted _it_.

[rehmwa 2]

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Depends on if adult patient A was attempting to murder adult patient B. She would be justified in killing one to prevent them from killing the other. Or if Patient B killed patient A in self-defense.

you kinda buried yourself on this one.

wouldn't a better analogy be a triage one? (two patients, both about to die, only one doctor. you can only save the first patient, but that'll allow the 2nd to die - if you try to only save the 2nd, you know both will die anyway. You can't save both)


that's a lot different that Patient A walks over the stabs Patient B because Patient A doesn't want to share a hospital room (ooooh, that'll get them going)

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[billvon 3,080]

>that's a lot different that Patient A walks over the stabs Patient B because Patient
>A doesn't want to share a hospital room (ooooh, that'll get them going)

At least he didn't have a gun.

[rehmwa 2]

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Anyhow, I'll agree that it's a "baby" in an unborn stage. I haven't met too many pregnant women (who actually want to be pregnant) that go around referring to their fetus, or buying fetus clothes, or reading through fetus name books, or painting the fetus's room, etc. And if these women have a miscarriage, we're not likely to say, "Don't cry about it; it was just a fetus." We usually acknowledge that she lost a baby.

OK, so abortion is killing a baby, or terminating a pregnancy, depending on which wording you prefer. You acknowledge that there are instances where it is acceptable to kill a baby, so you're close to the same page as some pro-choicers; we just vary on when it's acceptable and what can be accomplished with law.

stop being reasonable - that's not how it's done

1 - first you need to try to control the semantics and the terms - insist on fetus vs insisting on baby, killing vs abort, to start - for the sake of emotive arguments for both sides

2 - next you need to throw out cliches and catchphrases to shut up the discussion - Kallend and Normiss have a good handle on the one side try "it's HER BODY" that's a good one - on the other side - perhaps random bible quotes are approved for use either verbally or on placards - though placards are usually a good place for pictures of rosy cheeked children too

I hope this helps - good luck

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[rehmwa 2]

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>that's a lot different that Patient A walks over the stabs Patient B because Patient
>A doesn't want to share a hospital room (ooooh, that'll get them going)

At least he didn't have a gun.

or a spork - that gets messy


(I can't WAIT for Dexter to start)

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[jaybird18c 24]

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>Why not give the baby up for adoption?

That is an excellent option, one I would support. But again, it's not up to you; it's up to her.

Depends on what it is inside of her. If it's a baby, then we have a problem because it's a human being just like you or me. I'm talking about for reasons of convenience that were mentioned. Not for medical necessity. I know it's legal...but that doesn't make it right....and it doesn't lessen the wrongness of it...just like the murdering of anyone.

[jaybird18c 24]

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What do the babies do to deserve death when your wife kills them? What did the raped woman do to deserve to have to carry a rapist's baby, potentially putting her own life in danger, and very likely causing her much more trauma than she's already been through?

The baby did nothing. That's the point. However, in my wife's situation, the mother would have died. In the other, both would live if left alone. I realize that pregnancy and delivery can be dangerous (hence, the need for OB/GYN Physicians), however, you do realize that very very few women die in childbirth like the did a hundred years ago...right? But, it's a natural process...they have babies all the time...how is that considered trauma? I realize you're also talking about the emotional trauma. I agree. However, that still is completely beside the point that there is another human being inside of her guilty of nothing being put to death unnessesarily.
The difference is medical necessity versus convenience. As the word explains...one is "necessary" to preserve life...the other is not...is wrong...tragically wrong.

[jaybird18c 24]

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Depends on if adult patient A was attempting to murder adult patient B. She would be justified in killing one to prevent them from killing the other. Or if Patient B killed patient A in self-defense.

you kinda buried yourself on this one.

wouldn't a better analogy be a triage one? (two patients, both about to die, only one doctor. you can only save the first patient, but that'll allow the 2nd to die - if you try to only save the 2nd, you know both will die anyway. You can't save both)


that's a lot different that Patient A walks over the stabs Patient B because Patient A doesn't want to share a hospital room (ooooh, that'll get them going)

It was an attempt at humor...not being serious. I realize it probably wasn't funny. I am not a comedian. At least, that's what my wife tells me. She laughs anyway, though. She's a good wife. :)

[billvon 3,080]

>If it's a baby, then we have a problem because it's a human being just like you or me.

Right. But you've already said that sometimes it is OK to kill that human being based on the wellbeing of the mother. In fact you've defended your wife when she has done that. So clearly it's NOT just like another human being; abortion is not "just like the murdering of anyone." (Which is fortunate for your wife!)

[billvon 3,080]

>However, in my wife's situation, the mother would have died.

Right. But in another post you replied "Tragic but what did the baby do to deserve death in that situation?" So I will ask you the same question. What did the child do to deserve death?