Capital Punishment III

[JohnRich 4]

I now want to bring together the two Capital Punishment polls I started in other threads, as enough time has passed to collect enough votes to see which way things are going. My theory as to how they would come out has proven correct, matching my expectations. So now it's time to compare and contrast the two cases, and their corresponding poll results.

Please review the attached image comparing the two capital punishment polls.

Now, why is there such a difference between these two cases?

If the anti-death penalty folks simply opposed the death penalty because it's the wrong thing to do, as they claim, then they should be opposed to it in ALL cases, regardless of the circumstances surrounding the crimes committed. And that would make the two polls look identical in ratios. Yet, as you can see, there are vastly different results between these two cases.

It would appear that a really gruesome crime can make more folks favor the death penalty. And a doubt as to guilt can make more people oppose the death penalty.

So that makes me believe that the anti-death penalty stance, regardless of circumstances, is really held as a core principle by relatively few people, about 30%. Instead, it argues that most people are flexible on this issue, on a case by case basis, depending upon the seriousness of the crime and the surety of guilt. And those folks, I would not classify as anti-death penalty - they're more like "pro death penalty in the right circumstances". And they number from about 45% to 70%.

So it appears to me that in all but the most questionable cases, the pro-death penalty folks are in the clear majority.

Comments?

[billvon 3,132]

>Now, why is there such a difference between these two cases?

Because in one his guilt was questioned. In the other his guilt was not. It is a basic principle here that guilt must be proved beyond a shadow of a doubt. When there is no question as to someone's guilt, then the resulting punishment is seen as more just, although people disagree as to how far that punishment should go. When there is some question as to his guilt, punishment for a crime is less just.

[JohnRich 4]

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>Now, why is there such a difference between these two cases?

Because in one his guilt was questioned. In the other his guilt was not. It is a basic principle here that guilt must be proved beyond a shadow of a doubt. When there is no question as to someone's guilt, then the resulting punishment is seen as more just, although people disagree as to how far that punishment should go. When there is some question as to his guilt, punishment for a crime is less just.

Right. But if people were really opposed to the death penalty for ANY reason, then they should have also opposed it in equal numbers for the white supremacist who dragged a black man to death behind his pickup truck. But the didn't. That's the disparity I see. So the number of people who actually oppose execution for ANY reason, are a small minority. And there's a whole bunch of folks who straddle the fence on it, depending upon the particular case. And those folks aren't really anti-death penalty, because they are in fact in favor of it, if the circumstances suit them.

[jakee 1,611]

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Now, why is there such a difference between these two cases?

Because the stupidity of the push poll wording on poll #1 made more people want to fuck with you?

Because when you posted poll #2 and said "I'm going somewhere with this" it made people want to vote differently to screw up your results?

Because the two polls ask different questions?

Because you don't know if the people voting in #1 and #2 are the same people?

Because the extra people who voted in poll #1 were mostly death penalty advocates?

Because it's lunacy to think you can draw any sensible conclusion about any subject from any DZ.com poll unless it's about whether skydivers like boobs, beer and/or sammiches?

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If the anti-death penalty folks simply opposed the death penalty because it's the wrong thing to do, as they claim, then they should be opposed to it in ALL cases, regardless of the circumstances surrounding the crimes committed.

I'm opposed to it in all cases, regardless of whether I personally feel they deserve to die.

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So that makes me believe that the anti-death penalty stance is really held as a core principle by only a very few people, regardless of circumstances. Instead, it argues that most people are flexible on this issue, on a case by case basis, depending upon the seriousness of the crime and the surety of guilt. And those folks, I would not classify as anti-death penalty - they're more like pro death penalty in the right circumstances.

Comments?

To base any belief on such a tiny, easily corruptible (and already corrupted in the asking) set of poll results is ludicrous and absurd.

But if you're just using it to confirm what you already thought then knock yourself out.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[Southern_Man 0]

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It is a basic principle here that guilt must be proved beyond a shadow of a doubt. .

Far be it to inject facts into SC, but such a standard does not exist anywhere in the law.

"What if there were no hypothetical questions?"

[billvon 3,132]

>such a standard does not exist anywhere in the law.

You're right; I meant to type "beyond a reasonable doubt." My bad.

[Andy9o8 3]

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It is a basic principle here that guilt must be proved beyond a shadow of a doubt. .

Far be it to inject facts into SC, but such a standard does not exist anywhere in the law.

Which is precisely the problem with the death penalty: because anything less than "beyond a shadow of a doubt" (including beyond a reasonable doubt) results in an error rate of greater than 0%; and to some, any error rate of greater than 0% in execution cases is morally intolerable.

[popsjumper 2]

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...it argues that most people are flexible on this issue, on a case by case basis, depending upon the seriousness of the crime and the surety of guilt. And those folks, I would not classify as anti-death penalty - they're more like "pro death penalty in the right circumstances".

True enough. You sure took a round-about way of getting there, but you made it...almost.

You could surmise similarly for the pro-death peeps.
Kill 'em if it's a heinous crime but, meh, we could drag it our for a while if it's not too awfully bad.

If you are really against state-sponsored murder you are against it in ALL cases. Otherwise, you're not really against it are you? No-brainer.

Question: Did you apply for government grants to do this project and will you submit it for peer review?

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[popsjumper 2]

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Which is precisely the problem with the death penalty: because anything less than "beyond a shadow of a doubt" (including beyond a reasonable doubt) results in an error rate of greater than 0%; and to some, any error rate of greater than 0% in execution cases is morally intolerable.

Even beyond that....
Neither "beyond a shadow of a doubt" nor "beyond a reasonable doubt" guarantee guilt or innocence.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[normiss 906]

Neither does our current justice system in a lot of cases these days!
dammit.

[SkyDekker 1,465]

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If the anti-death penalty folks simply opposed the death penalty because it's the wrong thing to do, as they claim, then they should be opposed to it in ALL cases, regardless of the circumstances surrounding the crimes committed. And that would make the two polls look identical in ratios. Yet, as you can see, there are vastly different results between these two cases.

Because asking if soembody deserves to die has no bearing on whether someone is pro or con the death penalty.

I am against the death penalty. However there are certainly situations in which I feel people deserve to die.

[kallend 2,183]

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If the anti-death penalty folks simply opposed the death penalty because it's the wrong thing to do, as they claim, then they should be opposed to it in ALL cases, regardless of the circumstances surrounding the crimes committed. And that would make the two polls look identical in ratios. Yet, as you can see, there are vastly different results between these two cases.


Comments?

Yes. Your polls were incorrectly worded to be able to draw the conclusion above. Whether due to ineptitude on your part or deliberate misdirection on your part only you can know.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.