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JohnRich 4
QuoteQuoteIncorrect. I'm sure if you thought for a moment, instead of making a knee-jerk post, that you would notice a difference between a life sentence versus the death penalty, and a marijuana sentence and the death penalty.
There are quite a few people serving life sentences for marijuana possession. SO that little back peddle is moot.QuoteRegardless of its effect upon the murder rate, it's still necessary for justice. It's not about deterrence, in my opinion, it's about justice. And that's a good enough reason.
Another nice back peddle. First you say the death penalty is needed or it will open the floodgates. Now you state it isn't about deterrence at all, but about justice.
That is your characterization of my statement, not mine.
When I say "marijuana users", I'm talking about routine personal-possession amount pot smokers. No one is doing life in prison for that. I think you knew that, but in your zeal to find some way to argue with me, you cherry-picked an extreme example.
We have graduated punishments for a reason, because some crimes are more serious than others. If you treat the most heinous crimes as something less, then it sends the message to the criminals that they've got nothing to lose by behaving worse. And it insults the victim and his survivors by treating the attacker in a less serious manner than he deserves.
If you sentenced murderers to the same weekend in prison that the above-mentioned pot smokers get, then I'm sure that a lot of people would take that as an opportunity to settle some scores.
Your mileage may vary. If you don't like the Texas death penalty, don't come here and commit a capital crime.
JohnRich 4
QuoteQuoteThere are exceptions all over the place, which means that there is no correlation.
Incorrect. You should take a statistics course before making claims like that.
For example:
States with death pealty, murder rate:
New Hampshire: 1.1
Montana: 1.5
Oregon: 1.9
States without death penalty, murder rate:
District of Columbia: 30.8
Michigan: 6.7
Alaska: 6.4
In fact, of the 38 states with the death penalty, 12 of them have a lower murder rate than the average for the non-death penalty states. That's quite a large variation from the characterization that the anti-death penalty folks are trying to portray here.
And the non-death penalty states only represent 13% of the population.
Source: http://davecoop.net/2007.htm
Besides, you guys are the ones claiming there is no deterrence effect, so even if death penalty was eliminated in those states, it wouldn't change the murder rates, and everything would stay the same.
nigel99 616
I like Texas and the Texans I have met have all been really nice people. Fort Worth and San Antonio were my favourites. But I've also stayed on a ranch in the middle of nowhere (our kids cried when we took them from the ranch to Orlando and wanted to go back there)
I would say that religion in Texas is not as in your face as it is in Georgia and South Carolina.
I do believe that Texans are fiercely independent and proud of their state compared to the other states I have been to. In other states the US flag dominates peoples homes and gardens in Texas it is the state flag.
Disclaimer. I am a drifter with an outside viewpoint and my views on Georgia are formed by staying in a bunkhouse with drunk skydivers and heavily influenced by a retired hippie.
Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.
jakee 1,594
QuoteWhen I say "marijuana users", I'm talking about routine personal-possession amount pot smokers. No one is doing life in prison for that. I think you knew that, but in your zeal to find some way to argue with me, you cherry-picked an extreme example.
The one that you brought into the conversation in a desperate attempt to justify your position.
QuoteWe have graduated punishments for a reason, because some crimes are more serious than others. If you treat the most heinous crimes as something less, then it sends the message to the criminals that they've got nothing to lose by behaving worse. And it insults the victim and his survivors by treating the attacker in a less serious manner than he deserves.
If you sentenced murderers to the same weekend in prison that the above-mentioned pot smokers get, then I'm sure that a lot of people would take that as an opportunity to settle some scores.
So, again, you're saying that it is about deterrence, and you must have the death penalty for it to be effective.
So John, how do you reconcile that stance with your other stance that the death penalty and murder rates are not linked in any way whatsoever?
Do you want to have an ideagasm?
JohnRich 4
QuoteQuoteWhen I say "marijuana users", I'm talking about routine personal-possession amount pot smokers. No one is doing life in prison for that. I think you knew that, but in your zeal to find some way to argue with me, you cherry-picked an extreme example.
The one that you brought into the conversation in a desperate attempt to justify your position.QuoteWe have graduated punishments for a reason, because some crimes are more serious than others. If you treat the most heinous crimes as something less, then it sends the message to the criminals that they've got nothing to lose by behaving worse. And it insults the victim and his survivors by treating the attacker in a less serious manner than he deserves.
If you sentenced murderers to the same weekend in prison that the above-mentioned pot smokers get, then I'm sure that a lot of people would take that as an opportunity to settle some scores.
So, again, you're saying that it is about deterrence, and you must have the death penalty for it to be effective.
So John, how do you reconcile that stance with your other stance that the death penalty and murder rates are not linked in any way whatsoever?
I am never desperate. Once again, that's your characterization to boost your own ego.
And I'll explain this once more for you, and if you don't get it this time, then that'll be it for you.
I was talking about the difference between:
1) Death penalty versus life in prison; and,
2) Death penalty versus a misdemeanor sentence.
The deterrent effect difference between death versus life is negligible. That makes it about justice rather than deterrence. On the other hand, if you reduce murder to a misdemeanor, then there will certainly be more murder. And people who would commit murder if it was just a misdemeanor, are certainly deterred by the fact that it's actually death/life. I might even be one of them. It's like a punishment severity scale from 1 to 10 - the difference between 9 and 10 is not very great, but the difference between 2 and 10 is. Things that are not true between 9 and 10, can be quite different between 2 and 10.
Got it now? I hope so. If not, instead of just whining about what I post, try coming up with some thoughts, logic and facts of your own. Try and make some kind of point. Put yourself out there - dare to take a stand on something.
kallend 2,146
QuoteQuoteQuoteThere are exceptions all over the place, which means that there is no correlation.
Incorrect. You should take a statistics course before making claims like that.
For example:
States with death pealty, murder rate:
New Hampshire: 1.1
Montana: 1.5
Oregon: 1.9
States without death penalty, murder rate:
District of Columbia: 30.8
Michigan: 6.7
Alaska: 6.4
In fact, of the 38 states with the death penalty, 12 of them have a lower murder rate than the average for the non-death penalty states. That's quite a large variation from the characterization that the anti-death penalty folks are trying to portray here.
And the non-death penalty states only represent 13% of the population.
Source: http://davecoop.net/2007.htm
Besides, you guys are the ones claiming there is no deterrence effect, so even if death penalty was eliminated in those states, it wouldn't change the murder rates, and everything would stay the same.
Quoting a handful of states is NOT a statistical analysis. If you want to make a claim about correlation, you should at least learn something about the concept instead of displaying your ignorance of it
...
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
jakee 1,594
QuoteThe deterrent effect difference between death versus life is negligible.
Then why, John, did you write "And for the most heinous crimes, there must be the death penalty, to send the clear message that such behavior is unacceptable"? If there is no difference between life and death when it comes to deterring people why do you twice say that there must be the death penalty during a paragraph where you are quite clearly talking about deterrence?
QuotePut yourself out there - date to take a stand on something.
John, I would love for you to say that I haven't made my own position on this topic perfectly clear. I would fucking love for you to have the spine to come out and say that directly instead of making weasley insinuations you can later back down from.
Do you want to have an ideagasm?
billvon 3,111
.thumb.jpg.4bb795e2eaf21b8b300039a5e1ec7f92.jpg)
Both of you cut it out.
JohnRich 4
QuoteQuoting a handful of states is NOT a statistical analysis. If you want to make a claim about correlation... blah blah blah
Strawman argument. I made no such claim, therefore your criticism is void. All I did is point out some things which speak against correlation (that's what "for example" meant - that should have been a solid clue for you). You seem to want to discard any data points like that which don't fit your pet theory. I know they're pesky, but they can't be ignored.
jakee 1,594
QuoteQuoteQuoting a handful of states is NOT a statistical analysis. If you want to make a claim about correlation...
Strawman argument. I made no such claim
"There are exceptions all over the place, which means that there is no correlation."
Sweet Jesus
Do you want to have an ideagasm?
kallend 2,146
QuoteQuoteQuoting a handful of states is NOT a statistical analysis. If you want to make a claim about correlation... blah blah blah
Strawman argument. I made no such claim, therefore your criticism is void. .
Quote"There are exceptions all over the place, which means that there is no correlation." John Rich
Getting forgetful?
...
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
Amazon 7
QuoteQuoteAww shucks.. I wonder if Billvon will give you a warning for that.....nice little PA... like he gave to me... nah.. never happen
He didn't mention you by name. If the shoe doesn't fit, then why are taking it as if it does?
It's quite ironic, that you, the person with the worst history for hurling insults towards people, is now so outraged when someone else hurls one back in your general direction.
Suck it up, cupcake. You reap what you sow.
I learned the proper use of the DIZZY DOT COM SHOUT BACK forum rules from the CONSEVATARDS on here deary.... So perhaps ya'll should go suck what ever you want
A Texas frame of mind.
I usually find that if you are a friendly and outgoing person....you will be welcomed, no matter where you are from.
I have had great traveling encounters on the road with folks from New York to California to Canada.
Those Green Bay folks are just beyond belief with the hospitality thing. Tennessee also. And the people in Buffalo, NY are great also.
(Of course it helps if you are towing a 6,000 pound bbq trailer)
If you act like an asshole....ye shall be treated as such.
Here's an interesting article..long but readable.
http://www.erenkrantz.com/Words/Texas.html
And of course it doesn't hurt that we were an independent (and broke) nation when we joined up with the Union in 1845.
My two cents worth.
Ciao Mofos,
Mad Max
Don't go away mad....just go away!
I usually find that if you are a friendly and outgoing person....you will be welcomed, no matter where you are from.
I have had great traveling encounters on the road with folks from New York to California to Canada.
Those Green Bay folks are just beyond belief with the hospitality thing. Tennessee also. And the people in Buffalo, NY are great also.
(Of course it helps if you are towing a 6,000 pound bbq trailer)
If you act like an asshole....ye shall be treated as such.
Here's an interesting article..long but readable.
http://www.erenkrantz.com/Words/Texas.html
And of course it doesn't hurt that we were an independent (and broke) nation when we joined up with the Union in 1845.
My two cents worth.
Ciao Mofos,
Mad Max
Don't go away mad....just go away!
skinnay 0
Just just say every country has their racist shitholes. Just kidding! of course!
JohnRich 4
QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoting a handful of states is NOT a statistical analysis. If you want to make a claim about correlation...
Strawman argument. I made no such claim
"There are exceptions all over the place, which means that there is no correlation."
Sweet Jesus
You're both comparing a "handful of states" to "exceptions all over the place". Two different things. A few examples does not equal a statitical analysis, as claimed. They were just examples to illustrate the point, as stated. Data points that are shotgun pattern all over the place, do not make a correlation.
Just two more people who like to sit around twiddling their thumbs and criticizing others, while offering nothing of their own. Sweet Jesus.
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239
Chuck
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