Andy9o8 2 #26 September 21, 2011 QuoteQuoteQuotePS: Do all those countries have the same judicial system? No. No, but since you are about to execute a man where there is serious doubt about his guilt, this may not be the right argument. Just because no system is perfect does not mean that one system is not better than another system. [I think you didn't mean to insert the second "not" in that sentence. Anyhow...] The fact that no system is perfect logically means that some systems are better than others. The goal should be to strive to find the best system possible under the circumstances in any given point in history. It's not a static process. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jgoose71 0 #27 September 21, 2011 Quote Quote Never mind found it. I now understand why Kallend didn't post the reference. If he did, the U.S. wouldn't look as bad. Typical for a college professor. http://in.news.yahoo.com/china-iran-iraq-us-pak-countries-registering-most-053706146.html Not the reference I used ** At least you admit the USA looks bad, so I guess that's progress. USA is still in lousy company, no matter whose source you use. Other countries that we keep company with: Yemen, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Nigeria... What lovely people. ** I used Amnesty International To say that the U.S. is the same moral equivalent as these other countries is a huge stretch, even for you. Have you been to these countries and seen there judicial systems and how they treat their prisoners? I have. You are reaching. When was the last time we executed a political prisoner? If you had a choice between prisons, would you rather go to Gitmo or a Mexican prison? Would you rather be tried in a Venezuelan court or an American court? Saying we are the moral equivalent of these other countries is a load of crap. If you want to have a discussion about the merits of the death penalty, then have one. Leading in with this junk is just trying to emotionalize, polarize, and sensationalize the issue so you don't have to discuss the facts. How very Saul Alinski of you."There is an art, it says, or, rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss." Life, the Universe, and Everything Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,146 #28 September 21, 2011 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteAren't we in great company? You like rockets. China, Iran, Iraq, USA, and Pakistan like rockets ... what great company you're in. Wow, that's a really good excuse for killing people. You think liking rockets is a really good excuse for killing people? PS: Do all those countries have the same judicial system? No. Ummm - YOU brought rockets into the thread. If you want to persist with your non-sequiturs, be my guest. This entire thread is a non-sequitur. Well, you didn't have to introduce rockets into a thread about the death penalty. Place the blame where it's due, on yourself. How is this entire thread being a non-sequitur my fault? You created this thread. Place the blame on yourself. A single thread starting post can't be a non-sequitur. Buy a dictionary.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 2 #29 September 21, 2011 QuoteHow very Saul Alinski of you. The guru of American conservative thought, William F. Buckley, referred to Alinsky as "very close to being an organizational genius." I'm sure Kallend appreciates the compliment. ETA: citation: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saul_Alinsky Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Butters 0 #30 September 21, 2011 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuotePS: Do all those countries have the same judicial system? No. No, but since you are about to execute a man where there is serious doubt about his guilt, this may not be the right argument. Just because no system is perfect does not mean that one system is not better than another system. Well, just so long as it's better than another system makes everything fine. Just about the clearest statement I've ever heard in support of moral relativism. Maybe we should apply that standard to all our activities. Did I say it makes it fine? No. There you go putting words in my mouth. Aren't you the one always complaining about other people putting words in your mouth? By the way, if that was the clearest statement in support of moral relativism than you've made some clear statements in support of banning firearms."That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Butters 0 #31 September 21, 2011 QuoteA single thread starting post can't be a non-sequitur. Buy a dictionary. The implication of a single thread starting post can be a non-sequitur. Use your parachute to get down from your high horse."That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Butters 0 #32 September 21, 2011 QuoteThe fact that no system is perfect logically means that some systems are better than others. The goal should be to strive to find the best system possible under the circumstances in any given point in history. It's not a static process. I agree. However, this thread is implying that two systems are equal because they have a similar event even though the event is contained in different processes for each system."That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,146 #33 September 21, 2011 QuoteQuoteThe fact that no system is perfect logically means that some systems are better than others. The goal should be to strive to find the best system possible under the circumstances in any given point in history. It's not a static process. I agree. However, this thread is implying that two systems are equal because they have a similar event even though the event is contained in different processes for each system. I doubt it makes much difference to the dead person convicted on questionable evidence.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,146 #34 September 21, 2011 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuotePS: Do all those countries have the same judicial system? No. No, but since you are about to execute a man where there is serious doubt about his guilt, this may not be the right argument. Just because no system is perfect does not mean that one system is not better than another system. Well, just so long as it's better than another system makes everything fine. Just about the clearest statement I've ever heard in support of moral relativism. Maybe we should apply that standard to all our activities. Did I say it makes it fine? No. There you go putting words in my mouth. Aren't you the one always complaining about other people putting words in your mouth? By the way, if that was the clearest statement in support of moral relativism than you've made some clear statements in support of banning firearms. Buy a dictionary, you are using words you clearly don't understand.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Butters 0 #35 September 21, 2011 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuotePS: Do all those countries have the same judicial system? No. No, but since you are about to execute a man where there is serious doubt about his guilt, this may not be the right argument. Just because no system is perfect does not mean that one system is not better than another system. Well, just so long as it's better than another system makes everything fine. Just about the clearest statement I've ever heard in support of moral relativism. Maybe we should apply that standard to all our activities. Did I say it makes it fine? No. There you go putting words in my mouth. Aren't you the one always complaining about other people putting words in your mouth? By the way, if that was the clearest statement in support of moral relativism than you've made some clear statements in support of banning firearms. Buy a dictionary, you are using words you clearly don't understand. Blah, blah, blah ..."That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Butters 0 #36 September 21, 2011 QuoteQuoteQuoteThe fact that no system is perfect logically means that some systems are better than others. The goal should be to strive to find the best system possible under the circumstances in any given point in history. It's not a static process. I agree. However, this thread is implying that two systems are equal because they have a similar event even though the event is contained in different processes for each system. I doubt it makes much difference to the dead person convicted on questionable evidence. I doubt anything makes a difference to a dead person. Do you also doubt this makes a difference to all the living people being charged on questionable evidence?"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jgoose71 0 #37 September 21, 2011 QuoteQuoteHow very Saul Alinski of you. The guru of American conservative thought, William F. Buckley, referred to Alinsky as "very close to being an organizational genius." I'm sure Kallend appreciates the compliment. ETA: citation: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saul_Alinsky I'm sure one could argue that Hitler was an "Organizational Genius" also. Does that mean you want to pick up what he was putting down? Ted Bundy was a certified genius. Was he using his powers for good? just because a guy is gifted, a natural leader, extremely smart or charismatic doesn't mean we should follow him. The biggest problem I have with Saul Alinski is that he has said that the end justifies the means. You can do what you need to do as long as the cause is justified. I have a problem with that. I have never seen a corrupted process produce an un-corrupted result. If you know of any let me know. Having traveled the world quite a bit, the one thing I have noticed is that how well a country does, how well off it's people are is really dependent on the level of corruption in the government, not necessarily the type of government. The crap I see going on right now really disturbs me. It's why I identify with the Tea Party. I want special interests out and I want accountability to the people."There is an art, it says, or, rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss." Life, the Universe, and Everything Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jgoose71 0 #38 September 21, 2011 And for the record while I don't think Troy Davis should get the death penalty, I think these guys should.... http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/21/nyregion/at-second-trial-over-murders-in-cheshire-conn-survivor-tells-of-attacks.html The more details that come up about what they did to his wife and daughters, the more I think they deserve it."There is an art, it says, or, rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss." Life, the Universe, and Everything Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,146 #39 September 21, 2011 QuoteAnd for the record while I don't think Troy Davis should get the death penalty,. Unfortunately the system will always result in cases like Troy Davis's - it's inevitable because prosecutors, judges and juries are fallible, witnesses are unreliable. and vengeance replaces logic in murder cases.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #40 September 21, 2011 Quote Having traveled the world quite a bit, the one thing I have noticed is that how well a country does, how well off it's people are is really dependent on the level of corruption in the government, not necessarily the type of government. I have as well... and isn't it amazing that MOST of the civilized world has put the death penalty into the trash heap of barbaric history. Even some of the third world shitholes I have been to.. have also decided that a life in prison without the posibility of parole, is a better solution than murdering their own citizens. Many of them are in the first generation of not murdering each other because of their religion or their tribal group, yet they have come to a point where barbarism and vengeance is no longer the answer. I have hope that perhaps our own country will get to that point someday.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Use_of_capital_punishment_by_nation Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jgoose71 0 #41 September 21, 2011 Quote Quote Having traveled the world quite a bit, the one thing I have noticed is that how well a country does, how well off it's people are is really dependent on the level of corruption in the government, not necessarily the type of government. I have as well... and isn't it amazing that MOST of the civilized world has put the death penalty into the trash heap of barbaric history. Even some of the third world shitholes I have been to.. have also decided that a life in prison without the posibility of parole, is a better solution than murdering their own citizens. Many of them are in the first generation of not murdering each other because of their religion or their tribal group, yet they have come to a point where barbarism and vengeance is no longer the answer. I have hope that perhaps our own country will get to that point someday.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Use_of_capital_punishment_by_nation I don't know, if I had the choice between death or life in a Philippine prison. What would I do.... Can I get back to you on that?Are we basing our decisions on what is most humane?"There is an art, it says, or, rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss." Life, the Universe, and Everything Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #42 September 21, 2011 Quote Quote Quote Having traveled the world quite a bit, the one thing I have noticed is that how well a country does, how well off it's people are is really dependent on the level of corruption in the government, not necessarily the type of government. I have as well... and isn't it amazing that MOST of the civilized world has put the death penalty into the trash heap of barbaric history. Even some of the third world shitholes I have been to.. have also decided that a life in prison without the posibility of parole, is a better solution than murdering their own citizens. Many of them are in the first generation of not murdering each other because of their religion or their tribal group, yet they have come to a point where barbarism and vengeance is no longer the answer. I have hope that perhaps our own country will get to that point someday.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Use_of_capital_punishment_by_nation I don't know, if I had the choice between death or life in a Philippine prison. What would I do.... Can I get back to you on that?Are we basing our decisions on what is most humane? I am good with just not murdering people... especially state sponsored murder..... YMMV Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Butters 0 #43 September 21, 2011 Quote... especially state sponsored murder..... YMMV I'm currently more concerned with this type of state sponsored murder."That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
normiss 891 #44 September 21, 2011 I am in full agreement with you sir. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,465 #45 September 21, 2011 QuoteJust because no system is perfect does not mean that one system is not better than another system. And no better reason for not having a death penalty. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jgoose71 0 #46 September 21, 2011 Quote I am good with just not murdering people... especially state sponsored murder..... YMMV Do you still consider it state sponsored murder if you lock someone up and let them die slowly of gang green, leprosy, meningitis, or hepatitis? Technically you didn't kill them, you just kept them incarcerated."There is an art, it says, or, rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss." Life, the Universe, and Everything Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #47 September 21, 2011 QuoteQuote I am good with just not murdering people... especially state sponsored murder..... YMMV Do you still consider it state sponsored murder if you lock someone up and let them die slowly of gang green, leprosy, meningitis, or hepatitis? Technically you didn't kill them, you just kept them incarcerated. Last I checked... our system does not allow for that.... in our prison system. If it is.... prosecute the jailors or wardens for abusing their positions of authority for allowing the abuse. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #48 September 21, 2011 QuoteQuoteExecutions are not murder. BTW, I am opposed to the death penalty. Legal definitions and moral definitions are often not identical. Many people, and some religions, do define judicial execution as a form of murder, regardless of the definition of the term created by a civil government. Some consider abortion to be murder. Some do not. Similar (even if not identical) comparison. Sure, we can play the definition game and make Mother Teresa into a human rights violator. Or we could use our brains. Abortion in the vast majority of instances is not murder. Late term ones might be up for debate. Execution (US) in the vast majority of instances is not murder either. There have been noted failures where the prosecution/cops acted illegally to secure a conviction. I don't think they get punished sufficiently for these crimes. But when the article says we've executed a couple hundred people over the past 4 years, how many do you think we're talking about? At least the list got China right at the top, but it missed dozens of countries that are well past America and its 50 executions per year, and that's on a simple number basis, not per capita. Look to Africa- is there really no place there that kills more than 50 (and in this case they're almost certainly innocents) per year? And you can bet they didn't get 10-20 years of due process before it happened. Personally, I worry far more about Gitmo where people are held indefinitely without charge, or Patriot Act clauses that allow law enforcement to act without process. The guy we incorrectly execute after 20 years in prison...we pretty much killed his life already there. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,107 #49 September 21, 2011 >Disagree. Executions are murder . . . No, they're not. There are good arguments to be made against the death penalty. But if you have to resort to redefining words to make those arguments, you've already lost. >Buy a dictionary. Now that there's some irony. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,146 #50 September 22, 2011 Quote>Disagree. Executions are murder . . . No, they're not. There are good arguments to be made against the death penalty. But if you have to resort to redefining words to make those arguments, you've already lost. >Buy a dictionary. Now that there's some irony. "This Court has never held that the Constitution forbids the execution of a convicted defendant who has had a full and fair trial but is later able to convince a habeas court that he is “actually” innocent. Quite to the contrary, we have repeatedly left that question unresolved, while expressing considerable doubt that any claim based on alleged “actual innocence” is constitutionally cognizable." Antonin Scalia, for the SCOTUS. That's irony for you.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
