Religion - an interesting article

[nigel99 646]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-14944470

I wonder how many people will read the article and how many will simply jump in with their normal viewpoint regardless?

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

[popsjumper 2]

The meat of it:
"What we believe doesn't in the end matter very much. What matters is how we live."

The part I liked best:
"Evangelical atheists who want to convert the world to unbelief are copying religion at its dogmatic worst. They think human life would be vastly improved if only everyone believed as they do, when a little history shows that trying to get everyone to believe the same thing is a recipe for unending conflict. "

The part I liked the least:
"In most religions - polytheism, Hinduism and Buddhism, Daoism and Shinto, many strands of Judaism and some Christian and Muslim traditions - belief has never been particularly important. Practice - ritual, meditation, a way of life - is what counts. What practitioners believe is secondary, if it matters at all."

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[nigel99 646]

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The meat of it:
"What we believe doesn't in the end matter very much. What matters is how we live."

Good summary and I found it an interesting viewpoint.

I am not sure they are correct that belief has not been important though.

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

[devildog 0]

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The meat of it:
"What we believe doesn't in the end matter very much. What matters is how we live."

This is sort of true. The whole reality is, we live how we believe.

You stop breathing for a few minutes and everyone jumps to conclusions.

[jclalor 12]

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The meat of it:
"What we believe doesn't in the end matter very much. What matters is how we live."

The part I liked best:
"Evangelical atheists who want to convert the world to unbelief are copying religion at its dogmatic worst. They think human life would be vastly improved if only everyone believed as they do, when a little history shows that trying to get everyone to believe the same thing is a recipe for unending conflict. "

How many people in this world are killed, maimed, and displaced each year in the name of Atheism? What is the cost to the world fighting radical Atheist?

The vast majority of Atheist do not give a flying fuck what people want to believe, they just don't want it forced on their kids at school or having Government policy and laws based on it.

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[maadmax 0]

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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-14944470

I wonder how many people will read the article and how many will simply jump in with their normal viewpoint regardless?

Insightful article describing how science and religion shape our created realities. While just barely touching on spirituality which give both, science and religion, their meaning.

[pirana 0]

I disagree with the whole premise.

What a person believe's to be true is the absolute bottom line root driver of how we behave.

All of our experiences land on us as fuel for forming beliefs (what we believe to be true). Our behavior, largely our interactions with the world around us, is driven by the rules for life we build based on those beliefs. So it goes like this:

Experience: Nasty bite from large mean acting dog.

Beleif: Large mean acting dogs bite, and it hurts.

Rule: Avoid or defend against, large mean acting dogs.

Behavior: Crosses street, or pulls weapon, or whatever; when confronted by said dog. Choice depends on a multitude of other inputs from experiences.

In my book, the beliefs formulated from our experiences are a critical component of how a person leads their life.

The blanket statement that what a person believe's doesn't matter just doesn't wash with me.

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

[pirana 0]

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This is sort of true. The whole reality is, we live how we believe.

Agreed. A good quote:

"A person'e life is the perfect manifestitation of what they believe to be true."

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

[pirana 0]

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Insightful article describing how science and religion shape our created realities. While just barely touching on spirituality which give both, science and religion, their meaning.

Very misleading title at the least. "Can religion tell us more than science?"

Not sure how anyone can deny that science has told us far more than religion; and the article really does not address the question it asks.

Nonetheless - the writer addresses Human Behavior 101 by attaching the science versus religion debate. As topics of discussion (all discussions fall under the category of experiences - even the ones a person has with themself), science and religion are just part of the seemingly infinite labyrinth of inputs that form beliefs.

They (science & religion) are significant in that they represent 2 very different ways of accumulating information (more experiences); but the choice of which deserves more credence for each individual is already shaped by previously held beliefs.

So again, what a person believes is everything; how it got there is just an identification of cause.

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

[Meso 38]

Knew I shouldn't have opened this thread, so I will perform another hit and run to save me the annoyance of getting into huge debates.

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"Evangelical atheists who want to convert the world to unbelief are copying religion at its dogmatic worst. They think human life would be vastly improved if only everyone believed as they do, when a little history shows that trying to get everyone to believe the same thing is a recipe for unending conflict."

The writer seems to think that they know the goal of "Evangelical Atheists". I know quite a lot of Atheists who would be called 'evangelical', and I am one of them. And the none of the ones I know want to 'convert everyone into non-believers'. What the majority of Atheists want, is to reach a point where religion is no longer something that is expected in society.

It's not about getting everyone not to believe, it's about getting the people that do believe to keep their beliefs out of politics and out of places where it doesn't belong.

I am yet to meet an Atheist who will make an effort to stop someone who treats Christianity as a personal thing from believing.

In contrast, what most want is for religion to not be something that is expected in everyone. For people not to cry up in arms if someone refuses to say "One nation under God". For people not to be hounded by how their lives are worse off because they don't believe.

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A little history shows that trying to get everyone to believe the same thing is a recipe for unending conflict.

Is that not what Christianity has been doing for centuries and is still doing today? The Atheists are the ones trying to merely counter an on-going bombardment of Christians constantly trying to make the rest of the world Christian.

Like Atheists in general really care what anyone else believes, if they were to keep it to themselves. But there's this strangely retarded idea that Atheists should just sit down and shut up if they don't believe. While the Atheists realize that the reality of the situation is, if they do that - the other sides attempts at converting everyone aren't going to stop. All that will be left is an evangelical Christian wild fire that spreads but without any opposition this time.


I am yet to turn on the TV and see someone preaching Atheism for 4 hours every week. And until Christianity stops getting pushed into your face from public television channels every Sunday with hours of preaching. I'm going to remain pissed off and speak out against it.

The day when I can live without being told that God is so great from every angle, including said public television and the day when religion really does become a personal issue in practice and not in theory. Then I will be glad to shut up as well.

[nigel99 646]

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It's not about getting everyone not to believe, it's about getting the people that do believe to keep their beliefs out of politics and out of places where it doesn't belong.

I am yet to meet an Atheist who will make an effort to stop someone who treats Christianity as a personal thing from believing.

Sorry Meso you are wrong on this front. There are a couple of posters here on dz.com that do precisely that.

Personally I am the black sheep in the family and I am surrounded by devout religious people. I find it very difficult to reconcile my belief (or lack of) with theirs and it can make certain family visits or discussions very uncomfortable.

I think Europe has the balance about right. Religion is generally treated as a private affair and you are largely left to your own devices. Africa and the USA are much more intrusive. I hate how in the southern US states there is only religion or violence on TV and no porn

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

[danornan 79]

It seems to me that the people who are most comfortable practicing their religion or non-religion, whatever it might be, are the most silent and the one's who are least comfortable make the most noise.

Not too many people in the world have been killed or shouted down in the name of atheism or being agnostic. I don't think the same can be said about most organized religions.

Dano

[Meso 38]

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Sorry Meso you are wrong on this front. There are a couple of posters here on dz.com that do precisely that.

I can't even keep track of what everyone's ideals on dz.com are. But none of the people I know in "real life" are like that, is what I mean.

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Personally I am the black sheep in the family and I am surrounded by devout religious people. I find it very difficult to reconcile my belief (or lack of) with theirs and it can make certain family visits or discussions very uncomfortable.

I'm in the same boat, I'm the only person out of 13 relatives who is not a Christian. My grandfather, prior to his death, was also an Atheist - and the whole family would make sure we knew that we should never end up like that! Despite being a sober and good role-model.

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I think Europe has the balance about right. Religion is generally treated as a private affair and you are largely left to your own devices. Africa and the USA are much more intrusive. I hate how in the southern US states there is only religion or violence on TV and no porn

Agreed, Europe is much better in regards to religion. It's hard to comprehend, but here in South Africa, religion seems to be even more prominent than in the US, I think something like 90% (was over 80%) of South Africans are religious. And religion plays a huge part in the political avenues here too, especially as of late. Many of the religious native Africans still believe in traditional witchcraft, and live in fear of it, so a politician that says he was sent by God tends to help them. And pretty much anything bad that happens is blamed on Satan and the evil Satanists (they use it as a very blanketed term)

[beowulf 1]

Even the most "evangelical" of atheist doesn't compare to the sheer numbers or devoutness of religious "evangelicals".

I find it amazing that many Christians in the US consider themselves persecuted and truly believe that Christianity is under attack!

[TriGirl 349]

Even Richard Dawkins, who many have described as a "militant atheist," recommends the bible for literary reference in understanding American society, not to mention a litany of cliches and catch phrases that many don't remember originated from one bible story or another.

See the upside, and always wear your parachute! -- Christopher Titus

Shut Up & Jump!

[devildog 0]

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It seems to me that the people who are most comfortable practicing their religion or non-religion, whatever it might be, are the most silent and the one's who are least comfortable make the most noise.

Not too many people in the world have been killed or shouted down in the name of atheism or being agnostic. I don't think the same can be said about most organized religions.

Millions of people have been killed by Atheists. Stalin rounded up and slaughtered people based on the answer of "Do you believe in God?" (going door to door) and those that answered "Yes" were either shot or sent to Siberia (naked). While some may attempt to spin it as "Not in the name of Atheism" the wholesale slaughter to these people was entirely done because certain people held religious beliefs and those doing the killing did not like those beliefs. With such examples (not even getting into Mao, Polpot and friends), it's hard to take seriously the "We have the moral high ground" argument.

You stop breathing for a few minutes and everyone jumps to conclusions.

[quade 4]

You're thinking of the Romans.

Stalin may have killed a lot of people for a lot of reasons, but I challenge you to find evidence to support your claims he did killed anyone simply because that person happened to be a Christian.

Make no mistake, he killed people that happened to BE Christian. I'm not arguing that point, but to say he had people going door to door and killing people based on a yes or no question about their religion is overstating the point by a LARGE margin.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[wolfriverjoe 1,523]

Stalin killed a lot of people for a lot of reasons.

Supposedly, he sent one guy to Siberia (NOT naked, but it was still a virtual death sentence) for being the first one to stop clapping after a speech (or maybe it was for being the first to sit down after a standing ovation).

It wouldn't surprise me at all that he executed or "gulaged" priests for being priests, or lay people for promoting religion, but I agree that the "Door to door, yes or no question" is overstating the point.
Russians aren't stupid. They would know perfectly well how to answer that sort of question.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[jaybird18c 27]

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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-14944470

I wonder how many people will read the article and how many will simply jump in with their normal viewpoint regardless?

If the Bible is just a good guideline for morality and Jesus was just a good teacher, then the pluralistic viewpoint that all roads lead to heaven (or fulfillment) is plausible. However, Jesus didn’t allow for that (John 14:6; Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.). If our belief is not important and it’s just about how we live, we are relying on our own self-righteousness which is unbiblical (Ephesians 2:8; For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.). Jesus said, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel (Mark 1:15).

I can understand the author’s tendency to drift towards this idea, however, as a Catholic convert. Catholicism does not teach (as Paul instructed) salvation by grace (alone) through faith (alone) and their authoritative teaching does not come from scripture (alone). Catholicism is works-oriented (e.g. Sacerdotalism, among others) and is, in that way, at its core, just like every other religion on the planet. Historical/biblical Christianity is the only religion which stands apart.

It is really all about how we live and not what we believe? How we live is extremely important but is useless in an attempt to make us right with God. How we live is a reflection of what we believe. Christians try and live rightly not in order to be saved but because we are saved (if one has repented and placed his/her trust in Jesus; appropriating the substitutionary sacrifice/work on the cross that He performed on our behalf).