As others see us

[kallend 2,183]

"O wad some Power the giftie gie us to see oursels as others see us"

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[quade 4]

And lest anyone think it's only the Germans that feel that way;

http://youtu.be/XQE8E4LeG6o
http://youtu.be/BvjTapk1vCg

It really doesn't matter what you think of these as news sources. What matters is how the rest of the world now sees the US.

Just as we may sometimes chuckle at the fall of a pop star, the world laughs at the US now at its decline as a result of needless wars, wasted opportunities and completely bonkers military spending.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Gravitymaster 0]

Right, the news source only matters when it's Fox News or some other outlet you don't like.

[quade 4]

Quote

Right, the news source only matters when it's Fox News or some other outlet you don't like.

You're missing the point. I'm not saying it has to be accurate . . . in fact, it's probably just the run of the mill state sponsored propaganda . . . but the fact remains that it's NOT how countries saw us 10 years ago.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Andy9o8 3]

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Right, the news source only matters when it's Fox News or some other outlet you don't like.

So address the point of the OP instead of just grunting something.

[Gravitymaster 0]

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Quote

Right, the news source only matters when it's Fox News or some other outlet you don't like.

So address the point of the OP instead of just grunting something.

Whats there to address? The writer has his own perspective. Some agree with him some don't. It's called an opinion.

[rushmc 23]

Quote

Quote

Right, the news source only matters when it's Fox News or some other outlet you don't like.

You're missing the point. I'm not saying it has to be accurate . . . in fact, it's probably just the run of the mill state sponsored propaganda . . . but the fact remains that it's NOT how countries saw us 10 years ago.

Good thing is, we dont have to care

I dont

They can see us anyway they wish

Why do you care?

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[popsjumper 2]

Quote

Good thing is, we dont have to care

I dont

They can see us anyway they wish

Why do you care?

Well, I don't see that as a good thing.
I'd like to be able to go to a different country and not be snubbed simply because I'm an American.

I'd like to be able to feel somewhat safe as opposed to being a potential target for hate and having to look over my shoulder.

I'd like to there and not have to pretend I'm a Brit.

So, on a personal basis, I care.
On a national basis, meh, we get what we deserve and have to live with it, eh? Thank you, U.S. politicos.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[rushmc 23]

Quote

Quote

Good thing is, we dont have to care

I dont

They can see us anyway they wish

Why do you care?

Well, I don't see that as a good thing.
I'd like to be able to go to a different country and not be snubbed simply because I'm an American.

I'd like to be able to feel somewhat safe as opposed to being a potential target for hate and having to look over my shoulder.

I'd like to there and not have to pretend I'm a Brit.

So, on a personal basis, I care.
On a national basis, meh, we get what we deserve and have to live with it, eh? Thank you, U.S. politicos.

Hard to argue with your points

One thing I have come to know (generally) the media over in other countries is much like our own. By that I mean they have their own agenda and generally do not reflect the views of the majority of the population of that country. And after all, we are talking about a German news outlet (if you care to call them that)

ABC, CBS, NBC, NPR CNN and even FOX are not a fair representation of US public opinion. They think they are and they do have some influence, but for the most part they are on the extremes. I guess that is how they sell news. The people are more tolerant and respectful. The people are the real window into what they think

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[wmw999 2,602]

The one thing I think you left out is that there generally isn't one point of view that the majority of most countries have. On any single binary point, there is probably a majority (unless "don't care" is large), but for any issue with complexity, there are likely to be more than two opinions, which means nothing better than a plurality.

Otherwise, elections would be really boring.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[GeorgiaDon 385]

Quote

Good thing is, we dont have to care

I dont

They can see us anyway they wish

Why do you care?

On a personal level, what people elsewhere think of the US is unlikely to have much impact on you or on most people, so there isn't any compelling reason why you have to care.

For myself, I work with people from around the world, and it's kind of embarrassing to be associated with a country that is widely perceived as dysfunctional and declining.

On a national level, I do think there is an adverse impact. Conflicts with other countries come up from time to time, and when a military response is needed we prefer to recruit other countries to ally with us to form coalitions rather than going it entirely alone. Amongst other democracies, political leaders may be unwilling to commit their country to such endeavors if we are seen as unlikely to stand by our commitments, which can happen if we get in deep financial doodoo or if we change our minds every time we change political leadership. Even if those things aren't a big concern, few politicians anywhere would be likely to put their own future on the line to stand behind a highly unpopular foreign nation (the US in this case). Think how people here in the US would react if someone were to commit us to go to war to support Venezuela. If we are compromised in our ability to recruit other countries to our side in conflicts, our power and influence in the world will be diminished.

Don

_____________________________________
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

[rushmc 23]

Quote

The one thing I think you left out is that there generally isn't one point of view that the majority of most countries have. On any single binary point, there is probably a majority (unless "don't care" is large), but for any issue with complexity, there are likely to be more than two opinions, which means nothing better than a plurality.

Otherwise, elections would be really boring.

Wendy P.

Agreed

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[RonD1120 62]

Quote

"O wad some Power the giftie gie us to see oursels as others see us"

It is high time we quit worrying about the good opinion of others and take responsibility for our survival.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[rushmc 23]

Quote

Quote

Good thing is, we dont have to care

I dont

They can see us anyway they wish

Why do you care?

On a personal level, what people elsewhere think of the US is unlikely to have much impact on you or on most people, so there isn't any compelling reason why you have to care.

For myself, I work with people from around the world, and it's kind of embarrassing to be associated with a country that is widely perceived as dysfunctional and declining.

On a national level, I do think there is an adverse impact. Conflicts with other countries come up from time to time, and when a military response is needed we prefer to recruit other countries to ally with us to form coalitions rather than going it entirely alone. Amongst other democracies, political leaders may be unwilling to commit their country to such endeavors if we are seen as unlikely to stand by our commitments, which can happen if we get in deep financial doodoo or if we change our minds every time we change political leadership. Even if those things aren't a big concern, few politicians anywhere would be likely to put their own future on the line to stand behind a highly unpopular foreign nation (the US in this case). Think how people here in the US would react if someone were to commit us to go to war to support Venezuela. If we are compromised in our ability to recruit other countries to our side in conflicts, our power and influence in the world will be diminished.

Don

(Putting aside your work internationaly with no disrespect meant)

What would it really mean if other countries saw us as dysfunctional in the end anyway?

I can see credit issues but the rest? In the end we need to take care of our own. We (the US) have helped and still help all the countries we deal with. We have yet to keep a country we went to war with

I guess what I am trying to say is, someone trying to make us worry about what others think of us is a tactic of manipulation at best.

It is the same thing dreamdancer tries to do with those who do not view the rich as he does.
Create the class warfare to get your way (or he must go crying to his mommy)

Sorry, I think we need take care of and be responcible for ourselves and our families. If we do that, the rest will take care of itself

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[wmw999 2,602]

We are not completely self-sufficient as a country. If we were, we would not have this high a standard of living.

Therefore, I don't think that a 'fuck them and what they think of us' attitude is in our best interest.

We have to keep out best interests in mind -- it's our job, just as it's Iraq's to keep theirs in mind, Pakistan's to keep theirs in mind, etc.

Even if it conflicts with others' best interests. Then, where we have to deal with others (and we do), we work out the differences. Since we're not universally strong and able to kick ass until others "see it our way," we need to negotiate.

And in negotiation, others' opinions matter.

Don't want us to interface with other countries? Eat locally-produced foods, don't drive, don't buy stuff -- the Amish live very US-centric lives.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[rushmc 23]

Quote

We are not completely self-sufficient as a country. If we were, we would not have this high a standard of living.

Therefore, I don't think that a 'fuck them and what they think of us' attitude is in our best interest.

We have to keep out best interests in mind -- it's our job, just as it's Iraq's to keep theirs in mind, Pakistan's to keep theirs in mind, etc.

Even if it conflicts with others' best interests. Then, where we have to deal with others (and we do), we work out the differences. Since we're not universally strong and able to kick ass until others "see it our way," we need to negotiate.

And in negotiation, others' opinions matter.

Don't want us to interface with other countries? Eat locally-produced foods, don't drive, don't buy stuff -- the Amish live very US-centric lives.

Wendy P.

Didnt say we should not interface with them

But we do not need to alter ourselves to some how satisfy or worry about changing their view of us.

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[wmw999 2,602]

So that's why business spends so little effort on maintaining good will among their customers.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[rushmc 23]

Quote

So that's why business spends so little effort on maintaining good will among their customers.

Wendy P.

I do not see customer and countries as beeing anywhere near the same thing

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[quade 4]

Quote

Quote

So that's why business spends so little effort on maintaining good will among their customers.

I do not see customer and countries as beeing anywhere near the same thing

They are the exact same thing when it comes to international trade.

Hell, more than half our problems in the Middle East are due to "customer" relations.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[rushmc 23]

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Quote

Quote

So that's why business spends so little effort on maintaining good will among their customers.

I do not see customer and countries as beeing anywhere near the same thing

They are the exact same thing when it comes to international trade.

Hell, more than half our problems in the Middle East are due to "customer" relations.

Company to company? Yes

Country to country? No

I am not saying there is an effect but they still are different and that is as it should be.

As for the Middle East? As fanatical religious faction is our problem. If a country supports that faction then that country too is a problem

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[wmw999 2,602]

So if you're in charge of purchasing parts to make widgets, and you're faced with the following choices, what is your decision, and why?

1. Pakistani-made, 5 cents each
2. American-made, 8 cents each
3. Cuban-made, 2 cents each
4. Chinese-made, 6 cents each

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[weekender 0]

Quote

Quote

Good thing is, we dont have to care

I dont

They can see us anyway they wish

Why do you care?

Well, I don't see that as a good thing.
I'd like to be able to go to a different country and not be snubbed simply because I'm an American.

I'd like to be able to feel somewhat safe as opposed to being a potential target for hate and having to look over my shoulder.

I'd like to there and not have to pretend I'm a Brit.

So, on a personal basis, I care.
On a national basis, meh, we get what we deserve and have to live with it, eh? Thank you, U.S. politicos.

my experience is the complete opposite. ive been fortunate enough to travel abroad regularly since childhood. ive found that people love Americans. typically, we have money and readily spend it.

I've been to countries that conventional wisdom states hate us. French speaking, Islamic and full blown commie countries. Almost always treated as a prince.

Who are you so afraid of? looking over your shoulder, pretending to be British? I find people in shops and hotels are way nicer to Americans than Brit tourist because we tend to buy things and tip.

Not at all saying your wrong or haven't been snubbed but cannot relate at all. my experience is the complete opposite.

"The point is, I'm weird, but I never felt weird."
John Frusciante

[lawrocket 3]

Of course they do. How does America see the rest of the world? Is it justifiable or not?

It's the same thing.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[rushmc 23]

Quote

So if you're in charge of purchasing parts to make widgets, and you're faced with the following choices, what is your decision, and why?

1. Pakistani-made, 5 cents each
2. American-made, 8 cents each
3. Cuban-made, 2 cents each
4. Chinese-made, 6 cents each

Wendy P.

That would depend on the market I am selling to

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[Gravitymaster 0]

Quote

So if you're in charge of purchasing parts to make widgets, and you're faced with the following choices, what is your decision, and why?

1. Pakistani-made, 5 cents each
2. American-made, 8 cents each
3. Cuban-made, 2 cents each
4. Chinese-made, 6 cents each

Wendy P.

Your view is too simplistic in this regard. My company has made a commitment that we will not sell any products that are not US made. We have to explain to our customers why our prices might be a bit higher, but we are finding people respect our commitment and have responded positively. It's not always about the lowest price.