9/11 didn't change the world, Iraq did.

[Skyrad 0]

9/11 was a shock to America and to people all over the world, but as terrible as those events were they didn't change the world.
The Iraq war did. It showed the world the limits of American power both military and economically. It ruined America financially, going from a surplus to a massive un-payable debt. Iraq exposed the darker side of America and lost its claim to be the upholders of Freedom and democracy. Because of Iraq America lost whatever claim it had on the moral high ground. It radicalised people who would not otherwise have been radicalised and led to the deaths of up to a million people. The legacy of 9/11 is mostly limited to some paranoia among some Americans, the legacy of Iraq is the demise of the USA as a world Superpower both in reality and in the imaginations of people around the globe.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[rushmc 23]

Bull shit

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[Skyrad 0]

And would you care to share the chain of critical thought that went in to your formulated opinion?

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[rushmc 23]

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And would you care to share the chain of critical thought that went in to your formulated opinion?

No need
Your post is nothing more than a pile of crap that is your opinion
Hence
Bull shit

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[shropshire 0]

Nicely put.

The problems is, a lot of folks still hold to the 'My Country Right or Wrong' stance - and can not or will not see the harm that has been done by invading Iraq.

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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The Iraq war did. It showed the world the limits of American power both military and economically. It ruined America financially, going from a surplus to a massive un-payable debt.

America had massive debt well before the Iraq war. People really need to differentiate the difference between debt and deficit. Yes Clinton got the US government running surpluses at the end of his 8 years (the Republicans did have some influence there) and yes Clinton does need to be given some credit for running a surplus budget when he left office. But the US debt was still astronomically high.

I was on the fence in 2003. Face it, unless you are on the inside we can only believe what we are told. In retrospective the Iraq War was a big mistake. Who knows what Saddam would have done if he was allowed to stay in power. I don't think he was any better or any worse than Kahdafi. But you are making assumptions about the Iraq War which I do not agree with. The Iraq War told us two things about the USA that we already knew:

1) Nobody is better than the USA when it comes to invading countries.
2) The USA continues to suck at occupying countries.

But the present economic state of the USA is not the result of the Iraq War. The present economic state of the USA is a combination of:

1) Jobs lost to the global economy.
2) Astronomically high US Government debt (GOP + DEMs both created this debt).
3) Too many US citizens are/were living beyond their means.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[rushmc 23]

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Nicely put.

The problems is, a lot of folks still hold to the 'My Country Right or Wrong' stance - and can not or will not see the harm that has been done by invading Iraq.

Your point may or may not be the case. However, the posts first line states the 911 didn't change the world, rather, the Iraq war did.

To have a debate with him over this statement means one must accept that premise. Few will because is blatantly false.

Done for no other reason than to bash the US.

So it is bull shit to start with

Nothing more here

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[Andrewwhyte 1]

Since I have not left the continent since 9-11 I cannot say what it has done to the world. 9-11 however did change North America very much.
The Security Industrial Complex switched into high gear and has not abated. The US-Canadian border has thickened considerably. I now need a passport to go skydiving in Snohomish for the day or to go to a football game. My new reserve just spent 10 weeks in customs; more Canadians than ever have been denied entry into US; constitutionally guaranteed rights and freedoms have been trampled upon on both sides of the previously longest undefended border in the world.
Canada's role in Afghanistan was shaped considerably by the US commitments in Iraq, but it is still Afghanistan and the fallout from 9-11 that have defined this country's military posture and action over the last decade.
The Iraq war was ill advised to be sure. It was however just another case of adventurism by the US that neither redefined nor permanently altered the country any more than the Spanish-American War, Vietnam or Panama did. The Afghanistan campaign, including the prison at Guantanamo Bay, the incursions into Pakistan, and the numerous cases of extraordinary rendition (also known as "torture by proxy") have changed the way the US conducts itself in the world. It may be argued that these things have laid bare the way the US was acting all along, but the change nonetheless is profound.
9-11 changed the world (at least the part I can see) more than any event in my life. If you consider the bombings in London, Bali, Madrid and Mumbai to be part of the same phenomenon I think it is very hard to say it has not changed everything.

[airdvr 210]

I'll have to respectfully disagree with you. These changes started on Octber 6, 1981 with the assassination of Anwar Sadat and the rise of Hosny Mubarak in Egypt. The US support of Mubarak gave rise to the radicals we deal with today.

You Skyrad, along with a host of others have written the US off. Sorry, we're nowhere near through. You believe we've lost the the claim of upholders of freedom and democracy. Wrong again. You will find yourself on the wrong side of history, as the UK did when they too underestimated the US.

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[shropshire 0]

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...., as the UK did when they too underestimated the US.

When was that?

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[airdvr 210]

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...., as the UK did when they too underestimated the US.

When was that?

A little over 300 years ago.

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[shropshire 0]

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...., as the UK did when they too underestimated the US.

When was that?

A little over 300 years ago.

Wasn't the United States then was it?

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[airdvr 210]

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...., as the UK did when they too underestimated the US.

When was that?

A little over 300 years ago.

Wasn't the United States then was it?

You get the jist of it.

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[shropshire 0]

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...., as the UK did when they too underestimated the US.

When was that?

A little over 300 years ago.

Wasn't the United States then was it?

You get the jist of it.

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[kelpdiver 2]

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You get the jist of it.

but a 100 year error is hard to overlook.

[Andy9o8 2]

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You get the jist of it.

but a 100 year error is hard to overlook.

It's 65 years, making your own figure erroneous by a whopping 35%.

[kelpdiver 2]

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9/11 was a shock to America and to people all over the world, but as terrible as those events were they didn't change the world.
The Iraq war did. It showed the world the limits of American power both military and economically. It ruined America financially, going from a surplus to a massive un-payable debt. Iraq exposed the darker side of America and lost its claim to be the upholders of Freedom and democracy. Because of Iraq America lost whatever claim it had on the moral high ground. It radicalised people who would not otherwise have been radicalised and led to the deaths of up to a million people. The legacy of 9/11 is mostly limited to some paranoia among some Americans, the legacy of Iraq is the demise of the USA as a world Superpower both in reality and in the imaginations of people around the globe.

Rush had it right - "bullshit." Just about every single sentence is false, its entire intent to be inflammatory.

It had nothing to do with the deficit - the surplus was boom related, and Bush killed it anyway with the tax cuts, and it's unquestionable that the 9/11 attacks screwed up the economy for a bit. By 2003, the deficit was firmly established.

It didn't ruin the country financially - we're running a 1.5T deficit per year right now - the entire war might cost that.

We lost our moral high ground a long long time ago, starting with Vietnam, then Nicaragua, Iran, etc. No superpower has a high ground - look at yourself in the mirror.

9/11 gave us the Patriot Act, HSA (and with it, TSA), and yes, the Iraqi war. Without it this war can't be sold. Even outside of the US, flying has become an ordeal with nudie scanners and customs nonsense. When we finally let the Iraqis fight it out on their own, we'll still have all of this.

[kelpdiver 2]

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You get the jist of it.

but a 100 year error is hard to overlook.

It's 65 years, making your own figure erroneous by a whopping 35%.

He said a little over 300 years ago, so your math is a bit more precise than the facts justify.

[isle 0]

People should leave those attack to the rest already.

[Skyrad 0]

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And would you care to share the chain of critical thought that went in to your formulated opinion?

No need
Your post is nothing more than a pile of crap that is your opinion
Hence
Bull shit

As I thought, no thought process what so ever. Thanks for the confirmation.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[Skyrad 0]

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The Iraq war did. It showed the world the limits of American power both military and economically. It ruined America financially, going from a surplus to a massive un-payable debt.

America had massive debt well before the Iraq war. People really need to differentiate the difference between debt and deficit.

Quite right, my bad, I meant deficit rather than debt.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[Skyrad 0]

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To have a debate with him over this statement means one must accept that premise. Few will because is blatantly false.

Educate yourself

debate
noun
a formal discussion on a particular topic in a public meeting or legislative assembly, in which opposing arguments are put forward.
• an argument about a particular subject,

If you accept the premiss then you have no opposing view

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Done for no other reason than to bash the US.

Still haven't learnt anything in ten years, thats very sad. Back then it was 'they hate us because we're free', and 'You're either with us or against us' clearly you have been unable to evolve beyond this ignorant and simplistic world view.

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So it is bull shit to start with

Yet you are unable to articulate your incoherent rage and formulate any sort of logical intelligible response.

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Nothing more here

I assume you are referring to substance for your lack of an argument.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[Skyrad 0]

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Since I have not left the continent since 9-11 I cannot say what it has done to the world. 9-11 however did change North America very much.
The Security Industrial Complex switched into high gear and has not abated. The US-Canadian border has thickened considerably. I now need a passport to go skydiving in Snohomish for the day or to go to a football game. My new reserve just spent 10 weeks in customs; more Canadians than ever have been denied entry into US; constitutionally guaranteed rights and freedoms have been trampled upon on both sides of the previously longest undefended border in the world.
Canada's role in Afghanistan was shaped considerably by the US commitments in Iraq, but it is still Afghanistan and the fallout from 9-11 that have defined this country's military posture and action over the last decade.
The Iraq war was ill advised to be sure. It was however just another case of adventurism by the US that neither redefined nor permanently altered the country any more than the Spanish-American War, Vietnam or Panama did. The Afghanistan campaign, including the prison at Guantanamo Bay, the incursions into Pakistan, and the numerous cases of extraordinary rendition (also known as "torture by proxy") have changed the way the US conducts itself in the world. It may be argued that these things have laid bare the way the US was acting all along, but the change nonetheless is profound.
9-11 changed the world (at least the part I can see) more than any event in my life. If you consider the bombings in London, Bali, Madrid and Mumbai to be part of the same phenomenon I think it is very hard to say it has not changed everything.

Thanks for addressing the OP, however while your points on life inside North America are valid there are some discrepancies on the world view.
But those are pretty limited to North America, also London and Madrid had no direct link to the events on 9/11. In fact the bombers cited the reason for their actions on the Iraq war which radicalised people where as the only people radicalised by 9/11 were Americans.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[Skyrad 0]

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I'll have to respectfully disagree with you. These changes started on Octber 6, 1981 with the assassination of Anwar Sadat and the rise of Hosny Mubarak in Egypt. The US support of Mubarak gave rise to the radicals we deal with today.

You Skyrad, along with a host of others have written the US off. Sorry, we're nowhere near through. You believe we've lost the the claim of upholders of freedom and democracy. Wrong again. You will find yourself on the wrong side of history, as the UK did when they too underestimated the US.

While your points are historically interesting they fail to address the point of which event 9/11 or the Iraq war changed the world. I haven't written the USA off just yet, I think its on a long slow and most likely irreversible decline from its zenith of world superpower, but its not out of the game yet. However it is just a matter of time before its second and then a third rate world power. One can claim to be many things but it does not make them so. Through the lens of the rest of the world it is hard to see how the USA can back up such a claim when it orders extra judicial kidnappings and killings. With its human rights record, and use of torture and massive domestic surveillance. I'm not being emotional here at all, simply pointing out the way that the USA is viewed outside its borders.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[Skyrad 0]

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...., as the UK did when they too underestimated the US.

When was that?

A little over 300 years ago.

So not exactly relevant really then.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca