Shelby Steele In Todays WSJ (he nails it)

[rushmc 23]

Quote

Quote

Everyone you lefties disagree with gets the same label and treatment

I can understand labelling people who disagree with facts. But, have a harder time understanding the labelling of everybody who disagrees with an opinion.

I dont have any problem with anyone disagreeing with an opinion

But when that disagreement turns into an attack (like yours) it goes past disagreement. We then move to trying to bully someone into shutting up.

That is a standard liberal MOA

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[SkyDekker 1,465]

Quote

I dont have any problem with anyone disagreeing with an opinion

But when that disagreement turns into an attack (like yours) it goes past disagreement. We then move to trying to bully someone into shutting up.

Um, not quite. When you read an opinion piece, you have to have some understanding of the person stating the opinion to give some kind of weight to the opinion stated. On top of that, you would look at how the opinion is stated and if it is backed up by any kind of evidence, examples etc.

When I read the opinion of a plumber on neurosurgical techniques, I will likely respond by saying: the guy is a plumber. That is not attacking the writer, it is a statement of fact which has direct baring on the validity of the stated opinion

Hence, when I read a political opinion piece by somebody who has a tendency of writing what will get sold, I will take that into account when assessing the opinion.

That is not attacking the author, it is really just critical thinking.

I agree that Obama has been very ineffective as a US President. Quite frankly I think he should not seek re-election and withdraw himself.

However, I disagree with "Steele's opinions". I'm also not convinced these are his actual opinions and have a suspicion that the writing is based more on what would sell. Hence, I feel there is no real merit to the article itself.

[rushmc 23]

Quote

Quote

I dont have any problem with anyone disagreeing with an opinion

But when that disagreement turns into an attack (like yours) it goes past disagreement. We then move to trying to bully someone into shutting up.

Um, not quite. When you read an opinion piece, you have to have some understanding of the person stating the opinion to give some kind of weight to the opinion stated. On top of that, you would look at how the opinion is stated and if it is backed up by any kind of evidence, examples etc.

When I read the opinion of a plumber on neurosurgical techniques, I will likely respond by saying: the guy is a plumber. That is not attacking the writer, it is a statement of fact which has direct baring on the validity of the stated opinion

Hence, when I read a political opinion piece by somebody who has a tendency of writing what will get sold, I will take that into account when assessing the opinion.

That is not attacking the author, it is really just critical thinking.

I agree that Obama has been very ineffective as a US President. Quite frankly I think he should not seek re-election and withdraw himself.

However, I disagree with "Steele's opinions". I'm also not convinced these are his actual opinions and have a suspicion that the writing is based more on what would sell. Hence, I feel there is no real merit to the article itself.

And I think your prejudices stifle any critical thinking.

As for your opinion on Obama I agree. But what I would really like to see a primary opponent against him

THAT would be interesting (but I doubt it will happen)

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[SkyDekker 1,465]

Quote

And I think your prejudices stifle any critical thinking.

And what prejudices would those be?

[rushmc 23]

Quote

Quote

And I think your prejudices stifle any critical thinking.

And what prejudices would those be?

The template you put your world view under?

You indicated in your post that you thought anyone who might agree with Steele lacks critical thinking

I agree with him so, what would limit my thinking skills in your opinion?

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[SkyDekker 1,465]

Quote

You indicated in your post that you thought anyone who might agree with Steele lacks critical thinking

That's not quite what I wrote. I wrote that what you call attacking the author, I see as a process of critical thinking when dealing with an opinion piece.

I explained what my issues are with Steele's piece. Why do you think "he nailed it"? Is there anything that gives any particular weight to his opinion, other than your agreement with it?

[rehmwa 2]

Quote

which has direct baring on the validity of the stated opinion

if the misspelling is correct, then it's actually a very clever delivery which emphasizes your point

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[SkyDekker 1,465]

I'm clearly not that smart.

[DSE 5]

Quote

And I think your prejudices stifle any critical thinking.

And yours don't?
You can't read (or is it comprehension) almost the exact same words from a previous post. Therefore, I too look at "a plumber commenting on neurosurgery."
If you think the country is fucked now...just wait'll you get Romney or Palin in there. -then- we are well and truly fucked. Forever. What's happening in the middle east will seem like a bad dream compared to what will come.
Steele writes for the masses of asses on Wall Street. Fifth time that's been said.
He writes what his people want to hear. This particular piece doesn't address any specific anything that Obama has or hasn't done. (third time written in this thread for those from Iowa. WAIT! I'm from Iowa too!)
At least I've read some of his other writings to get an idea of his position and opinions.
His rants are nothing more than crazy fixation on "this guy is a leftist who hates America." Zero facts. Zero substance. Zero reality. From my perspective he's the one who hates America; read his content and it's quite clear.
Just a fantastical rant from a man who most likely needs to pay for a new Bose sound system in his BMW and this article gave him the means to do so.
However, there will always be fanatics in search of the fantastic to support and enable their delusions.

[rushmc 23]

I see what he posted as the only reason(s) Obama is doing what he is doing

I can not see another rational explanation

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[rushmc 23]

Quote

Quote

And I think your prejudices stifle any critical thinking.

And yours don't?
You can't read (or is it comprehension) almost the exact same words from a previous post. Therefore, I too look at "a plumber commenting on neurosurgery."
If you think the country is fucked now...just wait'll you get Romney or Palin in there. -then- we are well and truly fucked. Forever. What's happening in the middle east will seem like a bad dream compared to what will come.
Steele writes for the masses of asses on Wall Street. Fifth time that's been said.
He writes what his people want to hear. This particular piece doesn't address any specific anything that Obama has or hasn't done. (third time written in this thread for those from Iowa. WAIT! I'm from Iowa too!)
At least I've read some of his other writings to get an idea of his position and opinions.
His rants are nothing more than crazy fixation on "this guy is a leftist who hates America." Zero facts. Zero substance. Zero reality. From my perspective he's the one who hates America; read his content and it's quite clear.
Just a fantastical rant from a man who most likely needs to pay for a new Bose sound system in his BMW and this article gave him the means to do so.
However, there will always be fanatics in search of the fantastic to support and enable their delusions.

Of course mine do! That my friend was the exact point I was making

There is one small difference between libs and conservatives when a point or policy is discussed

Conservatives look at the other side and think they are wrong

Libs think the other side is wrong as well but, then they attack the other person questioning their education, experience or intelligence

A matter of respect.

Something that is sorely lacking in today’s discussion

Remember when Obama called for civility after the shooting?

Where is that same call when Representatives say the tea party can go straight to hell.

Dead silence cause left is always civil I guess
BTW Skydecker has been very respectful here IMO

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[SkyDekker 1,465]

Quote

I see what he posted as the only reason(s) Obama is doing what he is doing

I can not see another rational explanation

Fair enough. Would you then have any other examples of this post 60's liberalism that is against American exceptionalism?

[rushmc 23]

Quote

Quote

I see what he posted as the only reason(s) Obama is doing what he is doing

I can not see another rational explanation

Fair enough. Would you then have any other examples of this post 60's liberalism that is against American exceptionalism?

In many things we see today

Many of the social programs stifle individual exceptionalism.

This same attitude tends to blame the failing of individuals on society taking away a person from being responcible for their own actions

Schools
They teach things they have no reason messing with

I could go on

(oh, sorry I miss spelled you name in the other post. I just took a guess of how it was spelled)

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[SkyDekker 1,465]

Quote

Many of the social programs stifle individual exceptionalism.

How do you reconcile that with the almost exponential growth in millionaires and billionaires in the US since the 1960s? (up until maybe 2008, or do you think this post 60's liberalism didn't take hold until 2008?)

[rushmc 23]

Quote

Quote

Many of the social programs stifle individual exceptionalism.

How do you reconcile that with the almost exponential growth in millionaires and billionaires in the US since the 1960s? (up until maybe 2008, or do you think this post 60's liberalism didn't take hold until 2008?)

Do you think that what is stopping it now was put into place all at once??

I dont

You even post to the slow down in maybe 08.

Do you think the type of programs I list promote individual exceptionalism on any scale?

Again, I don't.

(and no, I an not for cutting to no level of a saftey net to help those who really do need it)

There has been an incrimental move leftward since I can remember

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[DSE 5]

Quote

Of course mine do! That my friend was the exact point I was making

There is one small difference between libs and conservatives when a point or policy is discussed

Conservatives look at the other side and think they are wrong

Libs think the other side is wrong as well but, then they attack the other person questioning their education, experience or intelligence

A matter of respect.

Something that is sorely lacking in today’s discussion

Remember when Obama called for civility after the shooting?

Where is that same call when Representatives say the tea party can go straight to hell.

Dead silence cause left is always civil I guess
BTW Skydecker has been very respectful here IMO

After the point was missed 3 times, it seems appropriate to question education, intelligence, etc.
Disrespecting copyright laws that put this website in jeopardy as well... kinda shows disrespect from two different angles, no?

And finally....I'm neither a conservative nor a liberal. I hate the asshats, particularly those of the Christian right, that intentionally try to put people into an "us" vs "them" position. That's what is ripping this country apart is this insipid, playground mentality that says you have to be one or the other. Steele is one of those, t'would appear you are too.
It's a shame, because it leaves the common man lost in the middle with no voice, and forces the common man to try to seek the more moderate voice in the elections, even if it's not the right voice.
This "my friend" is what has damaged our country so severely, so deeply, is the demand for polarization from morons like Steele, Limbaugh, Hannity, Palin, Romney, Kociinich, Swanson, Gore.
Worse are the people that actually ascribe to the rantings of these highly-paid voices of corporate America.

[mnealtx 0]

Quote

His rants are nothing more than crazy fixation on "this guy is a leftist who hates America." Zero facts. Zero substance. Zero reality.

Quote

And just what would be the "facts, substance and reality" behind the "well and truly fucked. forever" statement?

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

• Quote

Share this post

---

Link to post

Share on other sites

[rushmc 23]

Quote

Quote

Of course mine do! That my friend was the exact point I was making

There is one small difference between libs and conservatives when a point or policy is discussed

Conservatives look at the other side and think they are wrong

Libs think the other side is wrong as well but, then they attack the other person questioning their education, experience or intelligence

A matter of respect.

Something that is sorely lacking in today’s discussion

Remember when Obama called for civility after the shooting?

Where is that same call when Representatives say the tea party can go straight to hell.

Dead silence cause left is always civil I guess
BTW Skydecker has been very respectful here IMO

After the point was missed 3 times, it seems appropriate to question education, intelligence, etc.
Disrespecting copyright laws that put this website in jeopardy as well... kinda shows disrespect from two different angles, no?

And finally....I'm neither a conservative nor a liberal. I hate the asshats, particularly those of the Christian right, that intentionally try to put people into an "us" vs "them" position. That's what is ripping this country apart is this insipid, playground mentality that says you have to be one or the other. Steele is one of those, t'would appear you are too.
It's a shame, because it leaves the common man lost in the middle with no voice, and forces the common man to try to seek the more moderate voice in the elections, even if it's not the right voice.
This "my friend" is what has damaged our country so severely, so deeply, is the demand for polarization from morons like Steele, Limbaugh, Hannity, Palin, Romney, Kociinich, Swanson, Gore.
Worse are the people that actually ascribe to the rantings of these highly-paid voices of corporate America.

I never put any lable on you

But it seems you have done that for yourself



So, to expand this, those who do not agree with you get an attack like the one you just posted here.

Yep, I get it

You did better at making my point than I ever could have

Nicely done

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[rushmc 23]

I am also guessing you see black helo's in the night very often

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[SkyDekker 1,465]

Quote

Do you think that what is stopping it now was put into place all at once??

I cannot answer that question since I see absolutely no connection between post 60's liberalism and the 2008 recession.

Quote

Do you think the type of programs I list promote individual exceptionalism on any scale?

You haven't listed any programs, so I cannot comment on that either.

[mnealtx 0]

Marc - since you evidently didn't know, and DSE is too busy talking about intelligence and respect to pass on to you, is that quoting an entire piece can be considered copyright violation.

Copying a snipped portion with a link to the webpage is generally considered 'fair use'.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[rushmc 23]

Quote

Marc - since you evidently didn't know, and DSE is too busy talking about intelligence and respect to pass on to you, is that quoting an entire piece can be considered copyright violation.

Copying a snipped portion with a link to the webpage is generally considered 'fair use'.

You are correct as I did not know that

I posted the whole article out of courtesy to make it easier for others to read

But I guess he liked the gotcha angle better

Thanks for the info

Learned something yet again

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[rushmc 23]

Quote

Quote

Do you think that what is stopping it now was put into place all at once??

I cannot answer that question since I see absolutely no connection between post 60's liberalism and the 2008 recession.

Quote

Do you think the type of programs I list promote individual exceptionalism on any scale?

You haven't listed any programs, so I cannot comment on that either.

Pick any one

SS is one

Unemployment for billions of weeks

Pick your own social program

And there may be no direct connection
But the policies Obama uses are a result of his 60's liberalism mentality and the results of these policies have not helped. I would argue it has made things worse. (and this opinion is based on the history around the great depression)

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[SkyDekker 1,465]

Quote

Pick any one

SS is one

Unemployment for billions of weeks

Pick your own social program

None of those are policies tied to Obama. There have been a fair number of Republicans in control since the inception of those programs. Since they have been very much helped along by conservatives, how do you solely blame that on post 60's liberalism?

[rushmc 23]

Quote

Quote

Pick any one

SS is one

Unemployment for billions of weeks

Pick your own social program

None of those are policies tied to Obama. There have been a fair number of Republicans in control since the inception of those programs. Since they have been very much helped along by conservatives, how do you solely blame that on post 60's liberalism?

You know you can twist this all you want

But you will have to play that game by yourself

I answered the questions you asked and I never said Obama was to be held to account for the programs I listed. I did link those programs to the 60's however

Obama has expanded these type of programs

Obamacare anyone?

Now, do you want to keep this going or is a game all you want at this point?

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln