Unions

[freethefly 6]

Quote

The fact they place seniority over skill is one reason along with their attempts to demand how a company should be operated, where to outsource parts, etc.

My experience has always been that each person who can perform their job, retained their job. If you were not able to perform the job, you were let go. Every person on the line is capable of doing the job required to build the product. Those who have been on the line longer retains their job during slow downs.
Would you rather a person who has been there 30 years lose his job to an eighteen year old kid because that kid is a little bit faster?
Out sourcing? Out sourcing tends to go to places like Mexico. When Hussmann shut down the sheet metal department, all sheet metal parts came from Mexico. We junked quite a few parts due to mis-runs. No quality control. Coils were once built in the plant. Again, out sourced to a contractor in Mexico. Not very good quality. Lots of leaks that had to be repaired on the line. Time lost. Add it up with the parts that went in the scraper and that is a lot of money. Ingersoll Rands solution? Move 75% of the work to Mexico. The end result? A loss for the local economy. Not just the local economy, but the local economies of parts suppliers across the country.
But why would you care? You have yours and your attitude towards other Americans seem to be "screw them."

How do you feel about the union busting tactic at the Hershey Plant?
http://philadelphiaemploymentlawnews.com/2011/08/j-1-students-protest-hershey-chocolate-factory.html

The 400 Hershey J-1 students were hired by a Hershey contractor to operate one of the chocolate company's warehouses, reports the Daily News. The students would pay up to $6,000 to come to the country for the opportunity to immerse themselves in American culture by working in the job for three months.

However, the J-1 students say they learned very little American culture outside of factory life. They spent their time with other foreign students and had little money to leave the confines of Hershey.

Hershey's response?
...representatives from the Hershey chocolate factory said that the students were just pawns of the local union. The union was apparently upset that local jobs were being lost to the J-1 students.

I am imagining that you fully support Hershey. I mean, after all, to hell with those lazy Americans. Right?

"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young

[freethefly 6]

Quote

If all the job entails is putting a piece of molding on the side of a car...a job any grade school dropout can do...then $8.00/hr is fair. However, union autoworkers get paid a bit more than that.
Unions don't believe in matching pay to the job.

Well, if they want to pay wages that reflect wages in the 70s, they should sell their cars at prices that reflect the 70s prices. Otherwise, they'll never be able to sell cars to a country that is inhabited with a population that is on the poverty line. Furthermore, forget about income tax as the workers are barely getting by. And what about that local economy. Do you like slums?
It appears to me that you fail to realize that good wages support everything from the cafe across the road from the plant to the armed forces. Low wages = no taxes. If you wish to tax the hell out of a population that is living in poverty, expect hell to come from it.

"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young

[Belgian_Draft 0]

Sufre there are examples of outsourcing that result in inferior products.
Most don't.
You, and your union comrades, fail to recognize that American companies and workers are competing not in an American economy, but a worldwide economy. Sustaining a high standard of living was easier when most of the rest of the world lagged behind in quality and quantity, but they have now caught and, as often as not, surpassed American workers in both quantity and quality....at a far lower cost.
LUK, Inc. in Wooster, OH manufactures torque converters and clutches. Darn good ones, too. But so does China and at far less cost. It only costs a few thousand dollars to bring a shipping container over from China and it can hold a hell of a lot of high quality driveline components. Why should any company pay double for the same product of equal or lower quality? To keep dollars and jobs here, in the same country that taxes businesses blind? To keep jobs here so the unions can make life hell for business owners? HA!

HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

[Amazon 7]

Quote

Sufre there are examples of outsourcing that result in inferior products.
Most don't.
You, and your union comrades, fail to recognize that American companies and workers are competing not in an American economy, but a worldwide economy. Sustaining a high standard of living was easier when most of the rest of the world lagged behind in quality and quantity, but they have now caught and, as often as not, surpassed American workers in both quantity and quality....at a far lower cost.
LUK, Inc. in Wooster, OH manufactures torque converters and clutches. Darn good ones, too. But so does China and at far less cost. It only costs a few thousand dollars to bring a shipping container over from China and it can hold a hell of a lot of high quality driveline components. Why should any company pay double for the same product of equal or lower quality? To keep dollars and jobs here, in the same country that taxes businesses blind? To keep jobs here so the unions can make life hell for business owners? HA!

You planning to sell everything you produce to the .1% or to overseas???
It seems a lot of people are willing top seel out their country to do just that. Please do not ever utter anything about patriotism and America being great again.

What you and others fail to realize is you are willing to gut our country.. for a few dollars more profit. Its rather short sighted.. you grandchildren are probably going to curse people like you if you do not make changes to strengthen THIS country.. instead of China.. unless you like puckerin up real purty for those chinese and other furriners you seem to love so much.

[freethefly 6]

Is it not nice that each year more Americans will not have to pay taxes due to living in poverty?
Is it not nice that each year more Americans will have to file for government benefits because their job went to another country so the CEO can have a larger salary?
Is it not nice that communities are becoming slums due to loss of income from those who had good jobs no longer have them.
Is it not nice that some would rather support the economies in a foreign country rather than the economy in America.
Is it not nice that some in America wave the flag while flipping off their fellow Americans who can no longer help to support their country.
Is it not nice that many vets are coming home to find they cannot be hired due to their job is now being outsourced to a foreign country.
How nice is it that the promise that America once was as been outsourced?

"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young

[Amazon 7]

Quote

Is it not nice that each year more Americans will not have to pay taxes due to living in poverty?
Is it not nice that each year more Americans will have to file for government benefits because their job went to another country so the CEO can have a larger salary?
Is it not nice that communities are becoming slums due to loss of income from those who had good jobs no longer have them.
Is it not nice that some would rather support the economies in a foreign country rather than the economy in America.
Is it not nice that some in America wave the flag while flipping off their fellow Americans who can no longer help to support their country.
Is it not nice that many vets are coming home to find they cannot be hired due to their job is now being outsourced to a foreign country.
How nice is it that the promise that America once was as been outsourced?

It does seem all that Patriotic tripe the GOP trots out... is rather hollow. They have lost their fiscal responsibility and moral high ground long long ago...

[freethefly 6]

Quote

It does seem all that Patriotic tripe the GOP trots out... is rather hollow. They have lost their fiscal responsibility and moral high ground long long ago...

They know exactly where it is. After all, they are the ones who outsourced it to China.

"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young

[mnealtx 0]

Quote

Is it not nice that each year more Americans will not have to pay taxes due to living in poverty?

That would be the poverty with a car, a/c, 2 tvs, computer, cell phone, game systems...yes?

Quote

Is it not nice that each year more Americans will have to file for government benefits because their job went to another country so the CEO can have a larger salary?

Or because the union demands forced the company to relocate.

Quote

Is it not nice that communities are becoming slums due to loss of income from those who had good jobs no longer have them.

And thank heavens that those union jobs saved Detroit!!! Oh wait...

Quote

Is it not nice that some would rather support the economies in a foreign country rather than the economy in America.

Isn't it nice that union members would rather have American goods cost even MORE due to the companies having to pay their overinflated salaries?

Quote

Is it not nice that some in America wave the flag while flipping off their fellow Americans who can no longer help to support their country.

Like union members keeping people that just want to work away from employers?

Quote

Is it not nice that many vets are coming home to find they cannot be hired due to their job is now being outsourced to a foreign country.

Thank the Dems for taxing them out of country.

Quote

How nice is it that the promise that America once was as been outsourced?

Thank the Dems for taxing them out of country.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[Amazon 7]

Oh look its the broken record with the party line ( that he is supposedly not a member of) sloganeering away with the tired ole GOP rhetoric right off FAUX NEWS.. coutresy of his hero.. Rupert.

Good thing you got a gig working as a contractor for the Military... its about the only product we will have to sell if your lords and puppet masters have their way. But hey a big WIN WIN for you.... not so much for the country though.

[mnealtx 0]

SID LUFT!!!!

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[Amazon 7]

Quote

SID LUFT!!!!

SUPER EXTRA LARGE BUTTPLUG!!!!!!

[freethefly 6]

HaHaHaHa...
You're laugh. Considering that you live outside the U.S. and, by all indications, is out of touch with the reality in this country.
How are you going to feel when Camp Bondsteel is eventually shut down?
http://www.usmessageboard.com/the-middle-east-general/166447-camp-bondsteel-military-base.html

Other reports I have read indicated that Bondsteel was a drain on the U.S. and not needed. The largest contractor, KBR, rakes in millions of U.S. taxpayer dollars.
But I guess that is fine with you as you much rather support a foreign economy than you would the U.S. economy. After all, you don't live here.

"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young

[freethefly 6]

Oh the irony... manufacturing jobs are returning. High shipping cost, goods damaged in shipping, labor cost...
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/43569240/ns/business-us_business/t/surging-china-costs-forces-some-us-manufacturing-companies-back-home/

Why move production from the world's low-cost workshop back to a unionized U.S. factory where wages are six times higher than in China? Efficiency: The machine in Milwaukee is about 30 times as fast as the Chinese factories the company had been buying from, more than making up for the difference in wages.
"I can manufacture combination locks in Milwaukee for less of a cost than I can in China," said Bob Rice, a senior vice president at the largest U.S. padlock manufacturer.

http://finance.fortune.cnn.com/2011/06/29/return-of-american-manufacturing/

Overseas workers are getting more expensive.
Shipping costs keep increasing.
Global supply chains have shown weak links.
Fed up with the poor quality of having their products made in China, American businesses like Sleek Audio are moving production back home.

And on tax:
http://dealbook.nytimes.com/2011/08/16/tax-policy-change-would-bring-cash-piles-abroad-back-home/

A permanent tax reduction would not only cut taxes but actually raise revenue, allowing for Republicans to vote for it. And it should be a holiday without restrictions — trying to force companies to invest the money rather than pay dividends is a useless exercise that will create only more bureaucracy.

Even if the money were largely spent on buybacks and dividends and a large portion were kept abroad, it would still be reasonable to expect $300 billion to $600 billion to be repatriated. This money would flow into the economy, making the dividend tax cut a stimulus package that Democrats could support.

"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young

[Belgian_Draft 0]

So when it is more cost effective to produce in the states it is ok to buy here, but not vice versa? Got it.

Try running a business successfully and then come back and tell me how you did so using only products and labor from US unions.

HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

[popsjumper 2]

Quote

Unions once had (thankfully no longer have) the strength to force companies to keep labor numbers far in excess of what was needed,....

You're out of touch with reality here.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[popsjumper 2]

Quote

Would you rather a person who has been there 30 years lose his job to an eighteen year old kid because that kid is a little bit faster?

Yes. Emphatically. I wonder why you would even have to ask.

Quote

Out sourcing? Out sourcing tends to go to places like Mexico. When Hussmann shut down the sheet metal department, all sheet metal parts came from Mexico.

Did you ever stop to wonder why?

Quote

We junked quite a few parts due to mis-runs. No quality control. Coils were once built in the plant. Again, out sourced to a contractor in Mexico. Not very good quality. Lots of leaks that had to be repaired on the line. Time lost. Add it up with the parts that went in the scraper and that is a lot of money.

And still less than would have been payed out to exorbitant wages.

Quote

But why would you care? You have yours and your attitude towards other Americans unions seem to be "screw them."

Yup.

Quote

I am imagining that you fully support Hershey. I mean, after all, to hell with those lazy Americans. Right?

Yup.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[popsjumper 2]

"A variety of factors are driving the shift, including rising wages in parts of Asia, surging fuel prices and the complexity of transporting goods across the Pacific."

Sounds familiar doesn't it? So, in the big "save-the-workers" scheme, it's OK to move jobs from one place to another because of cost factors as long as it's YOU that benefits?

Move 'em the Mexico and Mexicans benefit.
Move 'em back and Americans benefit.

So, it's not about unions, it's about benefits to Americans, eh?

And that's OK. As long as you are talking benefits to us and not about how unions affect those transfers.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[freethefly 6]

Quote

Would you rather a person who has been there 30 years lose his job to an eighteen year old kid because that kid is a little bit faster?
Yes. Emphatically. I wonder why you would even have to ask.

A few seconds faster is no reason to retain a person over the person who has 30 years of experience and dedication. Loyalty and pride use to mean something in this country. It use to be a valuable asset and desired by employers. Not so much anymore.

Quote

Out sourcing? Out sourcing tends to go to places like Mexico. When Hussmann shut down the sheet metal department, all sheet metal parts came from Mexico.
Did you ever stop to wonder why?

I know why. I was there as the jobs went out the door and Ingersoll Rand auctioned off the machinery. The space was then leased out for storage.
Ingersoll Rand has a history of gutting profitable companies for the quick buck. They paid 1.7B for Hussmann in 2000. Several years ago, as Hussmann became not so profitable for them, they set out to sell a larger portion of the company. Over the summer they sold 60% for just over 300M.
Hussmann had a long history in St. Louis, its home town. Over 100 years of providing good jobs to thousands of people. Those jobs help to keep the local economy thriving. Parts that were not could not be made in the plant were made elsewhere in St. Louis. It was a positive ripple effect throughout the greater St. Louis area. Remove a major employer and it is just not the people at the plant who suffer the down turn, it is every industry that relies on that plant. The ripple turns and goes in a negative direction. It's not just union people who suffer. It's everyone along the chain.
Sad that so many do not see the big picture.

Quote

We junked quite a few parts due to mis-runs. No quality control. Coils were once built in the plant. Again, out sourced to a contractor in Mexico. Not very good quality. Lots of leaks that had to be repaired on the line. Time lost. Add it up with the parts that went in the scraper and that is a lot of money.

And still less than would have been payed out to exorbitant wages.

Exorbitant wages? The wages at Hussmann ranged from around $12.00 to just over $20.00. The higher skilled labor was at the top. I was second from the top. Maintenance was the top earners. We worked for every dime we made. Our wages supported our communities. How is that bad or exorbitant?
There was very little savings to Ingersoll Rand by shipping parts up from Mexico. Lines would often have to shut down due to parts that would not fit properly. Some parts could be hand drilled on the line and then installed. Other parts, such as panels and trim, went into the scrap bin. Every time the line stops, that is a cost the goes into thousands of dollars. When an entire shipment of parts are not usable, the cost is extremely high. Fabricating parts in plant reduces the cost to near zero. If parts start to run low, it is a simple matter of just making more. Fitment is perfect. There is no question to that. Quality saves cost. Fitment saves time. A company loses that edge when they use parts that come from out of country.

Quote

But why would you care? You have yours and your attitude towards other Americans unions seem to be "screw them."

Yup.

Not every job lost is a union job. Just as many non union workers were put out of a job. Closing a plant, union and non union, as a tremendous negative effect nation wide. Closing a plant in California can very well have a negative effect to the economy in a town in Maine.

Quote

I am imagining that you fully support Hershey. I mean, after all, to hell with those lazy Americans. Right?

Yup.

It's not just union people who hurt. It is every business that depends on those dollars to support their small business. Restaurants, gas stations, dry cleaners, laundromats, movie theaters, parts stores, barbers... every business in the community takes a hit.
Sad that you do not realize that. You should take an economics class.

"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young

[freethefly 6]

Quote

So, it's not about unions, it's about benefits to Americans, eh?

Unions are merely a variable in the equation. In certain parts of any given industry, they do more harm than good.
On the other hand, there are areas that they are needed to create a balance. Toyota would not pay as good as they do if wages at GM or Ford were sub standard. They would pay a comparable wage. They understand that a wage that supports the community their plant is in is needed to reduce the chance of the workers would organize with a union. This is also a win for the union. It creates a balance. If there were no union, wages would fall. That would hurt those at Toyota just as much as it would those at GM and Ford.

Quote

And that's OK. As long as you are talking benefits to us and not about how unions affect those transfers.

I have indicated to such. Not all workers belong to a union. Just as many non-union workers have lost jobs. It was 100% across the board.
Our economy is in the state that it is due to good paying jobs (union and non-union) going overseas. When people can no longer afford to buy the products that are offered, the effect is tremendous. The ripple began more than 40 years ago. Only in the last ten years did it become apparent, to some at least, that this was a long time coming. Like a tsunami, small waves lapping at the shore, it will eventually have a devastating effect on a community and the entire country.
So yes, it is not just about unions. It is about every person in our country. It is better to support the entire USA and let what is left trickle to other countries, but don't allow a flood of jobs flow freely from our shores.

"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young

[Amazon 7]

Quote

So when it is more cost effective to produce in the states it is ok to buy here, but not vice versa? Got it.

Try running a business successfully and then come back and tell me how you did so using only products and labor from US unions.

AGAIN.. what you and the other union haters in the business community seem to miss completely is that we as a country are heading to a place where you will be joining the ranks of the poor all too soon when you have no market for your products because no Americans other than perhaps the very top 1% have any money to buy anything.

You and your fellow travellers are supporting the demise of a healthy middle class in America and your grandchildren are going to curse you and those like you for it.

[mnealtx 0]

Quote

HaHaHaHa...
You're laugh. Considering that you live outside the U.S. and, by all indications, is out of touch with the reality in this country.
How are you going to feel when Camp Bondsteel is eventually shut down?
http://www.usmessageboard.com/the-middle-east-general/166447-camp-bondsteel-military-base.html

Other reports I have read indicated that Bondsteel was a drain on the U.S. and not needed. The largest contractor, KBR, rakes in millions of U.S. taxpayer dollars.
But I guess that is fine with you as you much rather support a foreign economy than you would the U.S. economy. After all, you don't live here.

Ah, I see you're back to your 'adult debate' of attacking the poster instead of their argument.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[mnealtx 0]

Quote

A few seconds faster is no reason to retain a person over the person who has 30 years of experience and dedication.

So, efficiency is less important than seniority...got it.

Quote

Loyalty and pride use to mean something in this country. It use to be a valuable asset and desired by employers. Not so much anymore.

Work stoppages and in some cases outright sabotage tend to have that effect.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

• Quote

[dks13827 3]

Unions care about union leaders, etc. Nothing more, bottom line.

Politicians, the great majority of them, care about re-election to the exclusion of all other considerations when it comes to their votes in congress. They admit that fairly often, too.

[Amazon 7]

Quote

Unions care about union leaders, etc. Nothing more, bottom line.

Yeah.. they care nothing about apprenticeships, training to journeymen’s skill levels or any of that useless master craftsmen knowledge in your world view

It’s far better to hire Juan and his crew.. they have such exacting homebuilding skills and codes in Tiajuana

[billvon 3,107]

>Unions care about union leaders, etc. Nothing more, bottom line.

Agreed. But that "etc" includes the people in the union. That's why they were originally formed - to give workers more power than an individual worker has, to let them exercise their collective power.

They still do that today. Unfortunately, what they care about (more benefits, more money, more time off) often ends up hurting them in the long run when they price themselves out of the market.