Guns in Bars

[freethefly 6]

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So you're using an "all crimes" stat to show that the claim that "gun crimes" went down is wrong?

The numbers given in the PDFs supplied by the VA State Police do not supply information on weapon used. I have stated such in my reply. My numbers represent all violent crimes committed in bars and restaurants. People can legally carry a knife. Are knife related crimes reduced because of such. No, they are not. As for gun specific numbers? I could find none. I'm certain that Mark Bowes, the author of the article, was granted access for his piece. If I had access, I would had used only such in my reply. Most would realize that, as I said as such. Yet, you have a serious problem with comprehension. Plus, you argue below the level of a child. Good luck with that.

"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young

[mnealtx 0]

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As for gun specific numbers? I could find none.

Then why state that your 'trend' refutes it?

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Yet, you have a serious problem with comprehension.

"Gun crimes are down this year over the year before."

"Well, *all* crimes aren't down, so my research doesn't support that result."

Not exactly rocket science to rebut your argument.

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Plus, you argue below the level of a child. Good luck with that.

Yeah, "you're a poopiehead" is SUCH a mature debate tactic, freethefly. Funny how you keep coming back to that every time you get proven wrong.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[freethefly 6]

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every time you get proven wrong.

You have proven nothing as you have failed to comprehend my reply. Again, I stated in my reply that the numbers covered all crime in bars and restaurants and was not weapon specific, as those statistics are not available, as far as I know. Any intelligent person could comprehend that. You, on the other hand, would argue the color of the sky if one said it was blue on its bluest day. Good luck with that.
As far as I am concerned you may reply, childishly as you will, and I shall not entertain you as I prefer debate with those who can actually debate on an adult level.

"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young

[JohnRich 4]

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I just believe guns and alcohol are never a winning combination.

You don't think it's possible for someone like me to go have dinner in a restaurant while carrying a concealed handgun, have a glass of wine with my meal, and not have any negative consequences?

[mnealtx 0]

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every time you get proven wrong.

You have proven nothing as you have failed to comprehend my reply.

I comprehended it just fine - I just didn't agree with it.

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Again, I stated in my reply that the numbers covered all crime in bars and restaurants and was not weapon specific, as those statistics are not available, as far as I know.

And yet, you tried to say that the non-weapon specific data trended opposite of the weapon specific data that you didn't even have access to.

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Any intelligent person could comprehend that.

Any intelligent person wouldn't have tried to rebut without the data in hand to support the point.

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As far as I am concerned you may reply, childishly as you will, and I shall not entertain you as I prefer debate with those who can actually debate on an adult level.

Is that so you can call *them* "poopieheads" when they show your "debate" to be without merit, too?

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[Southern_Man 0]

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I just believe guns and alcohol are never a winning combination.

You don't think it's possible for someone like me to go have dinner in a restaurant while carrying a concealed handgun, have a glass of wine with my meal, and not have any negative consequences?

Maybe, but let's just be clear that is illegal in VA.

"What if there were no hypothetical questions?"

[quade 4]

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I just believe guns and alcohol are never a winning combination.

You don't think it's possible for someone like me to go have dinner in a restaurant while carrying a concealed handgun, have a glass of wine with my meal, and not have any negative consequences?

JR, do they allow you to drink beer at your shooting range?

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[mnealtx 0]

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I just believe guns and alcohol are never a winning combination.

You don't think it's possible for someone like me to go have dinner in a restaurant while carrying a concealed handgun, have a glass of wine with my meal, and not have any negative consequences?

JR, do they allow you to drink beer at your shooting range?

I bet the restaurant doesn't allow him to shoot in the dining room.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[quade 4]

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I just believe guns and alcohol are never a winning combination.

You don't think it's possible for someone like me to go have dinner in a restaurant while carrying a concealed handgun, have a glass of wine with my meal, and not have any negative consequences?

JR, do they allow you to drink beer at your shooting range?

I bet the restaurant doesn't allow him to shoot in the dining room.

So? Isn't the idea that he'd have a weapon just "in case"? What's the point of carrying the weapon if the person carrying it is ineffective at using it when the time finally comes? What's the point of even becoming proficient if the person carrying the weapon is going to allow themselves to be compromised by alcohol? And please, don't tell me you "shoot just fine" after having a couple of drinks. I don't even fuckin' wanna know how you'd "know" that.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[kelpdiver 2]

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I just believe guns and alcohol are never a winning combination.

You don't think it's possible for someone like me to go have dinner in a restaurant while carrying a concealed handgun, have a glass of wine with my meal, and not have any negative consequences?

JR, do they allow you to drink beer at your shooting range?

I bet the restaurant doesn't allow him to shoot in the dining room.

So? Isn't the idea that he'd have a weapon just "in case"? What's the point of carrying the weapon if the person carrying it is ineffective at using it when the time finally comes? What's the point of even becoming proficient if the person carrying the weapon is going to allow themselves to be compromised by alcohol? And please, don't tell me you "shoot just fine" after having a couple of drinks. I don't even fuckin' wanna know how you'd "know" that.

Well, he said a glass of wine with dinner, not "a couple of drinks." Putting aside the question of local laws, you could figure the glass would be half processed by the end of the meal, and another half hour later would be basically at zero.

From the law perspective, the concern is far more about the wrong he might do with impaired judgment than an inability to defend himself. Self defense with one round (or even two) with a gun is still far more effective than showing yourself to be unarmed and slightly tipsy.

[kelpdiver 2]

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If the FAA didn't mandate it, nearly everyone would still have one.

Pretty much every state I can think of requires seatbelts, yet people routinely don't use them.

fascinating. no, actually irrelevant. You don't want to stay on topic.

Expensive AADs are not required (for the most part in the US), yet the adoption rate is pretty high. Primary chute malfunctions happen at a rate a few hundred times higher than the fatality rate for skydives. This is because of the reserve. The only people who would do without one are the ones jumping too low to make use of it.

Seat belts, otoh, have air bags as a backup. In fact, they're designed to save a 175lb man who is not wearing a belt. I think that's the wrong spec, but that's what it is in the US.

[popsjumper 2]

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I bet the restaurant doesn't allow him to shoot in the dining room.

Oh yeah? They serve shooters, don't they?


If they don't then they lied to me and that hangover was all for naught.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[popsjumper 2]

In support of freefly, as I understand his post:

He noted that gun crimes in those places were reduced by 8 during the noted time frame.

He also noted that "A drop of 8 (GUN-RELATED CRIMES) and compared with only one year does not support the debate that guns in bars/restaurants reduce (ALL) crime."

And then he showed a list of stats that supported the idea that carrying guns, or any other weapons, does not reduce ALL crime in those places.

Hell, gun-related crime dropped, othercrimes filled in the holes and then some. I can imagine some bozo thinking:
"Hmmmm. Too many guns around to rob the place outright so I'll just do a B&E when the place is closed."

What's funny is that there were only, at most, eight bozos smart enough to think that.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[Andy9o8 2]

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I just believe guns and alcohol are never a winning combination.

You don't think it's possible for someone like me to go have dinner in a restaurant while carrying a concealed handgun, have a glass of wine with my meal, and not have any negative consequences?

That example really evades the point re: bars in particular. It's reasonable to give bars areas closer scrutiny than the meal-service areas of restaurants, re: weapons of any kind (not just guns). In bars, the main focus of most people is the drinking, not the eating. More drinking, more alcohol-driven conduct in bars than in restaurants. "You looking at me?" happens a lot more often in bars than it does over at the family meal-serving tables. There's a reason why the phrase "bar fights" is a common part of the English lexicon. There's a reason why bouncers are common in bars, but less so in restaurants that simply serve alcohol with meals: it's because of the higher incidence of alcohol-driven conduct (such as aggression or anger) in bars. Weapons (of any kind) and alcohol-driven conduct are a dangerous combination.

The desire to be able to defend oneself against some asshole or criminal is legitimate, but it does not negate the above. It really is ok to have a reasonable discussion of this issue and have some balance to it.

[rhaig 0]

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Wyoming just went to open concealed carry in July. I'm still waiting to hear about them going 'Wild Wild West.'

What does "open concealed" mean?

it's similar to your position on gun control: unclear

ha ha.... actually I thought the same thing when I read that.

--
Rob

[DanG 1]

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It really is ok to have a reasonable discussion of this issue and have some balance to it.

You must be new around here.

- Dan G

[Southern_Man 0]

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Wyoming just went to open concealed carry in July. I'm still waiting to hear about them going 'Wild Wild West.'

What does "open concealed" mean?

They allowed concealed carry with no permit. (I assume that is what it means). You can still get a permit if you want it to establish reciprocity with other states.

"What if there were no hypothetical questions?"

[BIGUN 1,483]

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Wyoming just went to open concealed carry in July. I'm still waiting to hear about them going 'Wild Wild West.'

What does "open concealed" mean?

They allowed concealed carry with no permit. (I assume that is what it means). You can still get a permit if you want it to establish reciprocity with other states.

It was an error. There is "Concealed Carry" and "Open Carry" of which Wyoming is the latter.

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[Southern_Man 0]

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Wyoming just went to open concealed carry in July. I'm still waiting to hear about them going 'Wild Wild West.'

What does "open concealed" mean?

They allowed concealed carry with no permit. (I assume that is what it means). You can still get a permit if you want it to establish reciprocity with other states.

It was an error. There is "Concealed Carry" and "Open Carry" of which Wyoming is the latter.

They are not mutually exclusive. Virginia allows open carry (no permit required). It also allows concealed carry with a permit. The rules are a little different.

"What if there were no hypothetical questions?"

[SkyDekker 1,465]

I am having a tough time trying to understand the logic behind being allowed to consume alcohol when your gun is out in the open, but not when it is under your jacket.

[freethefly 6]

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I comprehended it just fine - I just didn't agree with it.

What is there not to agree with? I was completely unbiased.
In fact, one could look at the stats between 2009 and 2010 and say that there was an overall drop in crime of 109 incidents. That would be in favor of CCW laws. Although, it could not specifically indicate that permit holders are responsible for the drop.
One can go back to the years 1999 - 2000 and say there was a rise in incidents of 235 in favor of CCW laws. What caused the drastic increase? You cannot say it because citizens were unarmed and criminals took advantage of that as it would not mesh with the low rate of 1999 and 2001.
However, those in opposition could point out that between 2000 and 2001 there were a greater drop of 357 incidents in crime. From there, there was a sharp rise to 649 incidents, followed by slight up and down variations in numbers. Trends tend to favor those in opposition than those who propose CCW laws.
As I have said, a five to ten year study would provide a better assessment on the law. If the numbers continue to drop with no rise within the years assessed it would show that CCW laws might very well be responsible.
If, within those years, past trends continue it would indicate just that, that crime waves are trends. Those in opposition would surely point that out.

I am neither for nor against CCW laws. I much rather not have my name in another government data base. If I wished to carry a gun, and I have in the past, I'd do so without the permission of the government. To me, that is personal freedom. My opinion is CCW law goes against personal freedom as one must get permission first and pass a test. That alone puts CCW in the same category of a drivers license making it a privilege and not a right.

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And yet, you tried to say that the non-weapon specific data trended opposite of the weapon specific data that you didn't even have access to.

I said no such thing. Sad attempt to create a strawman.

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Any intelligent person wouldn't have tried to rebut without the data in hand to support the point.

Rebut? The numbers I provided can be argued both ways. They are without bias. If you were able to look at the data and fully comprehend, you would see that.

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Is that so you can call *them* "poopieheads" when they show your "debate" to be without merit, too?

I did no such thing. I merely pointed out that you tend to argue without merit. You have the propensity to create a strawman argument. That, in itself, is childish.

"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young

[airtwardo 7]

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Or are you in favor of restricting freedoms based upon what "might" happen?

In some cases, yes. In some cases it makes sense for society to do that. I assume you still jump with a reserve parachute.

strange example to use. Did you mean to suggest . . .

No. I meant exactly what I said. In some cases it makes sense for society to restrict freedoms based on what "might" happen.

Swoopers MIGHT hurt somebody...get a rope!

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[JohnRich 4]

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I just believe guns and alcohol are never a winning combination.

You don't think it's possible for someone like me to go have dinner in a restaurant while carrying a concealed handgun, have a glass of wine with my meal, and not have any negative consequences?

Maybe, but let's just be clear that is illegal in VA.

Understood. Here in Texs they have a "50% rule". If a business derives more than 50% of it's income from the serving of alcohol, then it's a bar, and firearms are prohibited. If it derives less than 50%, then it's a restaurant, and you're allowed to enter with your concealed gun and have drinks with your meal. The businesses have to post large clearly-visible signs at the entrances to let patrons know if they are a gun-prohibited establishment. There have been no problems with this arrangement. I would bet that Virginia will eventually liberalize in this direction in succeeding years also.

[JohnRich 4]

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You don't think it's possible for someone like me to go have dinner in a restaurant while carrying a concealed handgun, have a glass of wine with my meal, and not have any negative consequences?

JR, do they allow you to drink beer at your shooting range?

Nope. But the purpose of the shooting range is shooting, not eating or drinking. Likewise, restaurants prohibit shooting, as the purpose is eating and drinking. If there was such a thing as a restaurant that also allowed shooting, then I imagine they would prohibit alcohol. I think everyone agrees that we don't want drunks with guns.

But there's a difference between being drunk and having a glass of wine with dinner. And if you want to prohibit having a gun while drinking a glass of wine with dinner because that somehow makes those patrons dangerous, then you're going to also have to prohibit all those other wine drinkers too, because they must now be too unsafe to drive home in their cars. And where does that leave us? That leaves us where no one is allowed to have a glass of wine with dinner, unless they walk to the restaurant. I don't think you want that.

Is that the situation you want to create? Or do you belive that someone with a licensed concealed handgun and a glass of wine, is more dangerous than someone with a license to drive and a glass of wine?

Hey, here's a crazy idea! How about we just recognize that licensed concealed gun carriers are responsible people who are capable of having a glass of wine with dinner without going berserk, just as licensed drivers are responsible enough to have that same glass of wine and drive home safely without killing anyone. Deal?

[JohnRich 4]

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As I have said, a five to ten year study would provide a better assessment on the law. If the numbers continue to drop with no rise within the years assessed it would show that CCW laws might very well be responsible.

Those studies have alredy been done. CCW has been around for quite a while now, is in place in 49 out of 50 states, many for more than a decade, and none of them have seen sufficient problems caused by it to warrant considering removal of the program. Furthermore, crime stats nationwide are at a 30-year low. Do a search on my posts here with titles like "More Guns, Less Crime". There's no longer any question about this - it's a settled matter - in favor of guns.