kelpdiver 2 #76 August 17, 2011 QuoteI will attempt to just ignore your ass. shit, can we get that written down as the 28th amendment? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #77 August 17, 2011 QuoteMike, you are beyond arguing with. I hearby pledge that from this day forward when it comes to having any sort of intelligent conversation, I will attempt to just ignore your ass. Don't you have to MAKE an intelligent conversation, first? Because trying to claim that the BOR *grants* rights rather than bars the government from interfering with them doesn't meet the standard. From the US Constitution website that YOU YOURSELF mentioned earlier: Link QuoteBar to Federal Action The Bill of Rights was understood, at its ratification, to be a bar on the actions of the federal government. QuoteI might not make it, but I'm certainly going to try. It'd certainly save you from FURTHER embarassment.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #78 August 18, 2011 Quote The government, in the Constitution and Bill of Rights simply recognizes the existance of those natural rights - but it is not creating them itself. Those rights exist independent of whatever the government says. I'm confused on just what those natural rights are...you know, the ones that exist independent of whatever the goobermint says. Will you help by specifying a few?My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #79 August 18, 2011 QuoteI'm confused on just what those natural rights are...you know, the ones that exist independent of whatever the goobermint says. Will you help by specifying a few? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_and_legal_rights http://www.u-s-history.com/pages/h1206.html Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BIGUN 1,426 #80 August 18, 2011 Quote Quote Quote Quote Quote Quote The government, in the Constitution and Bill of Rights simply recognizes the existance of those natural rights - but it is not creating them itself. Those rights exist independent of whatever the government says. Oh dear, no. That is not now, nor has it ever been the way it worked. Prove your assertion with quotes from the Constitution and BOR, then. So . . . then . . . you were ok with slavery before you were against it? Show the text and make your case, then. You doubt that at one time slavery was allowed by the US Constitution? Seriously? http://www.usconstitution.net/consttop_slav.html Actually, you, John and Mike are all right. You are guilty of citing a source that scripts the "recognition" of slavery for the use of determining representation and taxes to the federal government; not as endorsement of slavery. Indians too had an effect on taxes and representation, but nobody's screaming injustice there. Now I'm not going to sit here and type until my fingers bleed on the keyboard trying to package up not only the decision process for the constitution; but also every paper written by our forefathers on slaves and guns for which you three have turned into a kitchen sink discussion. I'll say it again... All three of you are right. Each of you are taking a sliver of early American history and using it as an argument for your own position. Paul's right because "Some" would say that recognizing enumeration is tacit endorsement. Mike's right in his quote of the BOR, but some things happened resulting in major debates before the constitution and voting on the BOR. To end the debate, the Bill of Rights came up for voting. Eight "clusters" of rights were accepted. John is right because (and I'm going to side with him on this one heavily) BECAUSE... Our Forefathers argued for a long time about the protection of rights in the constitution. They argued about the impossibility of making a complete list of these rights. They argued about the danger of listing those rights in amendments. There was general agreement on the meaning of rights as "Natural Rights" and they were defined as [IIRC] a boundless collection of rights and liberties. There was a ton of rights debated all of which could not be listed and hence, the Ninth Amendment (Explained). The Tenth Amendment was then created to restrain the government to the enumerated powers and leave the full set of natural rights to the people. as explained here. Go to your rooms. It's bed time. EDIT: Credit to previous readings... http://www.reasontofreedom.com/enumeration_rights_clause.html (I paraphrased some of his work and then found the actual website.)Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freethefly 6 #81 August 18, 2011 http://www.aclu.org/racial-justice_prisoners-rights_drug-law-reform_immigrants-rights/bill-rights-brief-history From the ACLU: And it was well understood that there was a "race exception" to the Constitution. Slavery was this country's original sin. For the first 78 years after it was ratified, the Constitution protected slavery and legalized racial subordination. Instead of constitutional rights, slaves were governed by "slave codes" that controlled every aspect of their lives. They had no access to the rule of law: they could not go to court, make contracts, or own any property. They could be whipped, branded, imprisoned without trial, and hanged. In short, as one infamous Supreme Court opinion declared: "Blacks had no rights which the white man was bound to respect." It would take years of struggle and a bloody civil war before additional amendments to the Constitution were passed, giving slaves and their descendants the full rights of citizenship - at least on paper: The 13th Amendment abolished slavery; The 14th Amendment guaranteed to African Americans the rights of due process and equal protection of the law; The 15th Amendment gave them the right to vote But it would take a century more of struggle before these rights were effectively enforced."...And once you're gone, you can't come back When you're out of the blue and into the black." Neil Young Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #82 August 18, 2011 Oh. natural rights are those things in that fluffy cloud of ambiguity that get legislated to near extinction. "Natural rights, in particular, are considered beyond the authority of any government or international body to dismiss. " You have your right natural rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness as long as you follow this list of 9,987,201 laws that we made up.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #83 August 18, 2011 QuoteYou have your right natural rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness as long as you follow this list of 9,987,201 laws that we made up. A person's "natural rights" are what they have when they're left naked on a deserted island. You have the right to attempt to survive using nothing but what nature gave you. Beyond that we live in a society and, like it or not, societies live according to rules agreed upon by that society. Even the people that live under monarchy/dictatorial rule do so because they've agreed to it. Don't believe me? See what happens the second the underlings come together and decide they don't agree with it any more. The only exception I can think of is when some members of society have overwhelming power over other members of society as in a master/slave relationship where the masters have free reign and the power at their disposal to simply slaughter those that disagree with them. Sadly, this is the way most dictators operate, but even still, the moment the people around the dictator disagree, a coup is possible.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #84 August 18, 2011 Quote Actually, you, John and Mike are all right. Go to your rooms. It's bed time. Great post, Bigun! I hereby nominate Bigun for new Speaker's Corner Moderator! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Southern_Man 0 #85 August 18, 2011 QuoteThanks for clarifying Southern Also, any business in VA can by putting up a sign, prohibit people from open carrying on their premises. The person who is open carrying is bound by law to obey that sign."What if there were no hypothetical questions?" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BIGUN 1,426 #86 August 18, 2011 Quote Quote Actually, you, John and Mike are all right. Go to your rooms. It's bed time. Great post, Bigun! I hereby nominate Bigun for new Speaker's Corner Moderator! I thank you, good people: there shall be no money; All shall eat and drink on my score; and I will apparel them all in one livery, that they may agree like brothers and worship me their lord. King Henry VI, Part ii Act 4, Scene 2 KeithNobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 2 #87 August 18, 2011 I don't think so. I've heard of William the Conqueror, Ivan the Terrible, even Vlad the Impaler. But what moniker mates with "Keith"? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hwt 0 #88 August 18, 2011 The facts speak for themselves . America will not be disarmed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
christelsabine 1 #89 August 18, 2011 Quote .... America will not be disarmed. Sounds like a night prayer dudeist skydiver # 3105 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #90 August 18, 2011 Quote The facts speak for themselves . America will not be disarmed. I'm glad you came to that conclusion. Now people can stop living in fear and whining about it 24/7/365.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #91 August 18, 2011 Quote Quote The facts speak for themselves . America will not be disarmed. I'm glad you came to that conclusion. Now people can stop living in fear and whining about it 24/7/365. Well, that takes the Brady bunch out of the picture...Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BIGUN 1,426 #92 August 18, 2011 Quote I don't think so. I've heard of William the Conqueror, Ivan the Terrible, even Vlad the Impaler. But what moniker mates with "Keith"? Bigun the Dick? Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #93 August 18, 2011 Quote Quote I don't think so. I've heard of William the Conqueror, Ivan the Terrible, even Vlad the Impaler. But what moniker mates with "Keith"? Keith Stone... Always smooth. Here, hold my stones. I absolutely do not understand the concept behind that ad campaign. I swear Saatchi & Saatchi have lost their minds.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BIGUN 1,426 #94 August 18, 2011 I know.. I edited cause the commercials really drive me nuts.Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #95 August 18, 2011 Quote Quote Quote I don't think so. I've heard of William the Conqueror, Ivan the Terrible, even Vlad the Impaler. But what moniker mates with "Keith"? Keith Stone... Always smooth. Here, hold my stones. I absolutely do not understand the concept behind that ad campaign. I swear Saatchi & Saatchi have lost their minds. Well, I could never understand how frogs or cyldesdales can get people to drink Bud either. Only cheapness seems to be why Coors, Miller, Bud, and esp the smaller players like PBR or Keystone. So all that really matters is brand recognition, right? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #96 August 19, 2011 QuoteA person's "natural rights" are what they have when they're left naked on a deserted island. You have the right to attempt to survive using nothing but what nature gave you. Beyond that we live in a society and, like it or not, societies live according to rules agreed upon by that society. Even the people that live under monarchy/dictatorial rule do so because they've agreed to it.... ...Don't believe me? See what happens the second the underlings come together and decide they don't agree with it any more.... ... The only exception I can think of is when some members of society have overwhelming power over other members of society as in a master/slave relationship where the masters have free reign and the power at their disposal to simply slaughter those that disagree with them. That's no exception. That's the rule. Here in the U.S. we have built-in possibilities without having to resort to the general concept of "coup". - recalls and impeachments. Yes, it's stating the obvious, I know.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites freethefly 6 #97 August 19, 2011 QuoteQuoteYou have your right natural rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness as long as you follow this list of 9,987,201 laws that we made up. A person's "natural rights" are what they have when they're left naked on a deserted island. You have the right to attempt to survive using nothing but what nature gave you. Beyond that we live in a society and, like it or not, societies live according to rules agreed upon by that society. Even the people that live under monarchy/dictatorial rule do so because they've agreed to it. Don't believe me? See what happens the second the underlings come together and decide they don't agree with it any more. The only exception I can think of is when some members of society have overwhelming power over other members of society as in a master/slave relationship where the masters have free reign and the power at their disposal to simply slaughter those that disagree with them. Sadly, this is the way most dictators operate, but even still, the moment the people around the dictator disagree, a coup is possible. After reading this reply, I am assuming you have read Plato's 'The Republic'?"...And once you're gone, you can't come back When you're out of the blue and into the black." Neil Young Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites DaVinci 0 #98 August 30, 2011 QuoteIn some cases, yes. In some cases it makes sense for society to do that. I assume you still jump with a reserve parachute. Where in the Constitution is skydiving? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites DaVinci 0 #99 August 30, 2011 QuoteI just believe guns and alcohol are never a winning combination. Just like drinking and driving is a bad idea..... The difference is that to prevent drinking and driving most people don't try to ban cars. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites DaVinci 0 #100 August 30, 2011 Quote JR, do they allow you to drink beer at your shooting range? Do they allow shooting at a bar? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 Next Page 4 of 9 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
freethefly 6 #97 August 19, 2011 QuoteQuoteYou have your right natural rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness as long as you follow this list of 9,987,201 laws that we made up. A person's "natural rights" are what they have when they're left naked on a deserted island. You have the right to attempt to survive using nothing but what nature gave you. Beyond that we live in a society and, like it or not, societies live according to rules agreed upon by that society. Even the people that live under monarchy/dictatorial rule do so because they've agreed to it. Don't believe me? See what happens the second the underlings come together and decide they don't agree with it any more. The only exception I can think of is when some members of society have overwhelming power over other members of society as in a master/slave relationship where the masters have free reign and the power at their disposal to simply slaughter those that disagree with them. Sadly, this is the way most dictators operate, but even still, the moment the people around the dictator disagree, a coup is possible. After reading this reply, I am assuming you have read Plato's 'The Republic'?"...And once you're gone, you can't come back When you're out of the blue and into the black." Neil Young Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DaVinci 0 #98 August 30, 2011 QuoteIn some cases, yes. In some cases it makes sense for society to do that. I assume you still jump with a reserve parachute. Where in the Constitution is skydiving? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DaVinci 0 #99 August 30, 2011 QuoteI just believe guns and alcohol are never a winning combination. Just like drinking and driving is a bad idea..... The difference is that to prevent drinking and driving most people don't try to ban cars. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DaVinci 0 #100 August 30, 2011 Quote JR, do they allow you to drink beer at your shooting range? Do they allow shooting at a bar? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
