JohnRich 4 #1 August 16, 2011 News:Gun crimes drop at Virginia bars and restaurants "Virginia's bars and restaurants did not turn into shooting galleries as some had feared during the first year of a new state law that allows patrons with permits to carry concealed guns into alcohol-serving businesses, a Richmond Times-Dispatch analysis found. "The number of major crimes involving firearms at bars and restaurants statewide declined 5.2 percent from July 1, 2010, to June 30, 2011, compared with the fiscal year before the law went into effect..."Full story: http://www2.timesdispatch.com/news/2011/aug/14/tdmain01-gun-crime-drops-at-virginia-bars-and-rest-ar-1237278/ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BIGUN 1,425 #2 August 16, 2011 "Back when everyone had guns on their hips; folks were a whole lot more polite to each other." ~Louis L'AmourNobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #3 August 16, 2011 QuoteWyoming just went to open concealed carry in July. I'm still waiting to hear about them going 'Wild Wild West.' how could they? There are fewer people in that whole state than a mid sized suburb. It would be impossible to discern a statistically significant change. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
weekender 0 #4 August 16, 2011 my gut tells me drinking and having a gun doesnt mix. if this law past in my state i would be very selective where i drank. no more dives with my buddies to watch the booze bags sloppy fist fighting in the parking lot. I'm not anti gun, fyi. I own more than most. Just not a big drinker around them."The point is, I'm weird, but I never felt weird." John Frusciante Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,465 #5 August 16, 2011 Quotemy gut tells me drinking and having a gun doesnt mix. Virginia agrees with you. You are allowed into the alcohol serving establishment with your concealed gun, but you are not allowed to drink while carrying a concealed gun. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #6 August 16, 2011 Quotemy gut tells me drinking and having a gun doesnt mix. if this law past in my state i would be very selective where i drank. no more dives with my buddies to watch the booze bags sloppy fist fighting in the parking lot. I'm not anti gun, fyi. I own more than most. Just not a big drinker around them. that's the gut talking, not the brain. This article demonstrates that this fear is not supported by examples. And it stands to reason - the people you would worry most about are the ones that will carry regardless of the law. And while it was deep in the article, it's important to note that in this state, as most (all?), the CCW permit still cannot legally drink at the establishment. He or she can merely eat and drink non alcoholic bevs while carrying. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
weekender 0 #7 August 16, 2011 QuoteQuotemy gut tells me drinking and having a gun doesnt mix. Virginia agrees with you. You are allowed into the alcohol serving establishment with your concealed gun, but you are not allowed to drink while carrying a concealed gun. oh, thanks. common sense prevails. That could actually be quite fun. I would enjoy being a sober guy in a bar packing, surrounded by drunkards with beer muscles and poor judgement. Or is it just me?"The point is, I'm weird, but I never felt weird." John Frusciante Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,465 #8 August 16, 2011 Just remember that if you are allowed to carry openly, you are also allowed to drink as much as you want while carrying openly in Virginia. (At least according to the article, I have never been to Virginia) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,112 #9 August 16, 2011 QuoteWyoming just went to open concealed carry in July. I'm still waiting to hear about them going 'Wild Wild West.' What does "open concealed" mean?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freethefly 6 #10 August 17, 2011 QuoteA total of 145 reported crimes with guns occurred in Virginia bars and restaurants in fiscal 2010-11, or eight fewer than the 153 incidents in fiscal 2009-10. State police track all murders, non-negligent manslaughters, aggravated assaults, forcible sex crimes and robberies in more than two dozen categories, including "bars/nightclubs" and "restaurants." A drop of 8 and compared with only one year does not support the debate that guns in bars/restaurants reduce crime. My research reveals trends that suggest otherwise. B=Bar R=Restaurant 1999 B 240, R 148 = 348 2000 B 255, R 368 = 623 2001 B 266, R 141 = 266 2002 B 216, R 433 = 649 2003 B 236, R 430 = 666 2004 B 270, R 371 = 641 2005 B 264, R 392 = 656 2006 B 265, R 361 = 626 2007 B 266, R 442 = 708 2008 B 271, R 417 = 688 2009 B 270, R 356 = 626 2010 B 224, R 293 = 517 For a 12 year period 7054 violent crimes were committed in bars/restaurants in Virginia for an average of 587.83 per year. Considering that 1999 had a total of 388 and 2001 had a total of 266 violent crimes committed in these establishments compared to the 517 in 2010 it cannot be established that guns in bars and restaurants is responsible for the decrease. It should, also, be noted that a downward trend in violent crimes occurred between 2007 and 2008, 2008 and 2009, as well as between 2009 and 2010. The information supplied in the Virginia State Police Past Crime in Virginia Publications do not give what type of weapons were used. I totaled the statistics for the categories mentioned in the Richmond Times-Dispatch. The categories for Violent Crime Location By Offense were typically found on page 43 in the PDFs. http://www.vsp.state.va.us/Crime_in_Virginia.shtm"...And once you're gone, you can't come back When you're out of the blue and into the black." Neil Young Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jclalor 12 #11 August 17, 2011 QuoteQuote"Back when everyone had guns on their hips; folks were a whole lot more polite to each other." ~Louis L'Amour Louis L'Amour was a fiction writer. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jclalor 12 #12 August 17, 2011 QuoteQuoteNews:Gun crimes drop at Virginia bars and restaurants "Virginia's bars and restaurants did not turn into shooting galleries as some had feared during the first year of a new state law that allows patrons with permits to carry concealed guns into alcohol-serving businesses, a Richmond Times-Dispatch analysis found. "The number of major crimes involving firearms at bars and restaurants statewide declined 5.2 percent from July 1, 2010, to June 30, 2011, compared with the fiscal year before the law went into effect..."Full story: http://www2.timesdispatch.com/news/2011/aug/14/tdmain01-gun-crime-drops-at-virginia-bars-and-rest-ar-1237278/ Everyone knows alcohol and guns are a winning combination. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #13 August 17, 2011 Quoteit cannot be established that guns in bars and restaurants is responsible for the decrease. I didn't see anyone making that assertion. What they said is that it didn't turn into a bunch of wild west shootouts. And if you can increase personal freedom, without causing any negative side-effects or making things worse, then we should certainly do so. Or are you in favor of restricting freedoms based simply upon the fear of what "might" happen? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #14 August 17, 2011 QuoteQuoteA total of 145 reported crimes with guns occurred in Virginia bars and restaurants in fiscal 2010-11, or eight fewer than the 153 incidents in fiscal 2009-10. State police track all murders, non-negligent manslaughters, aggravated assaults, forcible sex crimes and robberies in more than two dozen categories, including "bars/nightclubs" and "restaurants." A drop of 8 and compared with only one year does not support the debate that guns in bars/restaurants reduce crime. My research reveals trends that suggest otherwise. B=Bar R=Restaurant 1999 B 240, R 148 = 348 2000 B 255, R 368 = 623 2001 B 266, R 141 = 266 2002 B 216, R 433 = 649 2003 B 236, R 430 = 666 2004 B 270, R 371 = 641 2005 B 264, R 392 = 656 2006 B 265, R 361 = 626 2007 B 266, R 442 = 708 2008 B 271, R 417 = 688 2009 B 270, R 356 = 626 2010 B 224, R 293 = 517 For a 12 year period 7054 violent crimes were committed in bars/restaurants in Virginia for an average of 587.83 per year. Considering that 1999 had a total of 388 and 2001 had a total of 266 violent crimes committed in these establishments compared to the 517 in 2010 it cannot be established that guns in bars and restaurants is responsible for the decrease. It should, also, be noted that a downward trend in violent crimes occurred between 2007 and 2008, 2008 and 2009, as well as between 2009 and 2010. The information supplied in the Virginia State Police Past Crime in Virginia Publications do not give what type of weapons were used. I totaled the statistics for the categories mentioned in the Richmond Times-Dispatch. The categories for Violent Crime Location By Offense were typically found on page 43 in the PDFs. http://www.vsp.state.va.us/Crime_in_Virginia.shtm So you're using an "all crimes" stat to show that the claim that "gun crimes" went down is wrong? Good luck with that.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #15 August 17, 2011 QuoteQuoteQuote"Back when everyone had guns on their hips; folks were a whole lot more polite to each other." ~Louis L'Amour Louis L'Amour was a fiction writer. ...who knows a great deal about the old west from researching the books he's written. Does John Grisham know nothing about jurisprudence because he writes fictional novels about the law? Does Tom Clancy know nothing about the Armed Forces because he writes fictional novels about military conflict? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #16 August 17, 2011 QuoteOr are you in favor of restricting freedoms based upon what "might" happen? In some cases, yes. In some cases it makes sense for society to do that. I assume you still jump with a reserve parachute.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BIGUN 1,425 #17 August 17, 2011 QuoteQuoteQuote"Back when everyone had guns on their hips; folks were a whole lot more polite to each other." ~Louis L'Amour Louis L'Amour was a fiction writer. Ya know, you've really got to read more. He wasn't _just_ a fiction writer.Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #18 August 17, 2011 QuoteQuoteOr are you in favor of restricting freedoms based upon what "might" happen? In some cases, yes. In some cases it makes sense for society to do that. I assume you still jump with a reserve parachute. strange example to use. Did you mean to suggest that everyone should carry a second pistol for backup? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Belgian_Draft 0 #19 August 17, 2011 Quotemy gut tells me drinking and having a gun doesnt mix. if this law past in my state i would be very selective where i drank. no more dives with my buddies to watch the booze bags sloppy fist fighting in the parking lot. I'm not anti gun, fyi. I own more than most. Just not a big drinker around them. Patrons have been taking guns into bars for as long as both have been around.HAMMER: Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the object we are trying to hit. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #20 August 17, 2011 QuoteQuoteQuoteOr are you in favor of restricting freedoms based upon what "might" happen? In some cases, yes. In some cases it makes sense for society to do that. I assume you still jump with a reserve parachute. strange example to use. Did you mean to suggest . . . No. I meant exactly what I said. In some cases it makes sense for society to restrict freedoms based on what "might" happen.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #21 August 17, 2011 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteOr are you in favor of restricting freedoms based upon what "might" happen? In some cases, yes. In some cases it makes sense for society to do that. I assume you still jump with a reserve parachute. strange example to use. Did you mean to suggest . . . No. I meant exactly what I said. In some cases it makes sense for society to restrict freedoms based on what "might" happen. Carrying a reserve isn't exactly an example of restricting a freedom. If the FAA didn't mandate it, nearly everyone would still have one. Because of what might happen, it's just as reasonable to carry a gun to a bar as it is to ban them. More so, I'd argue, since the people who would use them for criminal reasons aren't going to be affected by such a ban, but the citizens benefit from having the freedom. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freethefly 6 #22 August 17, 2011 QuoteI didn't see anyone making that assertion. What they said is that it didn't turn into a bunch of wild west shootouts. And if you can increase personal freedom, without causing any negative side-effects or making things worse, then we should certainly do so. The overall premise of conceal carry laws that has been put forth to support conceal carry law is that criminals will be less willing to commit crimes if citizens are armed. The title of the article "Gun crimes drop at Virginia bars and restaurants." along with the numbers supplied suggest that CCW laws are responsible for the reduction. It is far to early for such an implication. The piece does go on to show that some of the crimes were committed by holders of CCW permits, so the writer was not being strictly bias. And overall, the crimes that occurred during the law's first year were relatively minor, and few of the incidents appeared to involve gun owners with concealed-carry permits, the analysis found. A survey of the data in five to ten years would serve the debate far better than this of one year. Even still, if in one year of a five year study shows that ten people were gun down by permit holders, that would not suggest that the law lead to a "blood bath." QuoteOr are you in favor of restricting freedoms based upon what "might" happen? Not at all, and I have never suggested such. My reply showed upward and downward trends in violent crimes in bars and restaurants and that patrons carrying concealed guns do not sway the trends. Yet, as I have already asserted, it is too early to suggest that the law is without merit."...And once you're gone, you can't come back When you're out of the blue and into the black." Neil Young Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #23 August 17, 2011 QuoteIf the FAA didn't mandate it, nearly everyone would still have one. Pretty much every state I can think of requires seatbelts, yet people routinely don't use them.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NewGuy2005 53 #24 August 17, 2011 QuoteQuoteQuoteOr are you in favor of restricting freedoms based upon what "might" happen? In some cases, yes. In some cases it makes sense for society to do that. I assume you still jump with a reserve parachute. strange example to use. Did you mean to suggest that everyone should carry a second pistol for backup? Not at all, just a second magazine. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jclalor 12 #25 August 17, 2011 QuoteQuoteQuote***Quote"Back when everyone had guns on their hips; folks were a whole lot more polite to each other." ~Louis L'Amour Louis L'Amour was a fiction writer. ...who knows a great deal about the old west from researching the books he's written. Does John Grisham know nothing about jurisprudence because he writes fictional novels about the law? Does Tom Clancy know nothing about the Armed Forces because he writes fictional novels about military conflict? You do have a point. But I think people on a certain level were more polite, and less likely to be killed by errant gun fire directed at a rival crack dealer. The price of a gun was out of the reach for most people, so I bet per capita, gun ownership is much higher now. I just believe guns and alcohol are never a winning combination. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
