winsor 236 #76 August 17, 2011 QuoteQuoteChristianity as a whole has worked long and hard to earn the contempt in which it is held... the spread of christianity has all too often been by means of genocide, slavery... The problem I have with your view is that you're using Christianity as it existed hundreds of years ago, and longer. They're no longer enslaving foreign populations to convert them to their faith. They're no longer conducting Crusades to lop off the heads of non-believers. You should not hold the actions of Christians from a thousand years ago against modern-day mainstream Christians who simply worship their own beliefs in their private churches and lead their lives according to good wholesome values. Christians have gotten over using violence for religion. You should get over blaming them for what happened long ago in the past. The Christians of today use the political system to express their views and advocate for their beliefs. That's what it's there for, no different than any other special interest groups. It's a peaceful process, and the proper way to do things. But some people even begrudge them participation in that process, as if they have no right to express or advocate for their viewpoints. And that's wrong. Everyone deserves to have their ideas heaard, and then let the voters decide, and the three branches of government do its work. Christian presidents have managed to serve this country pretty darned well over the last 236 years. I lived in the home of Pope Urban II, and there is still a statue to commemorate his initiation of the Crusades. The Catholic Church still maintains records of the Inquisition, and many defend its legitimacy. Where I lived in Serbia, the Town Seal, a 2 meter version of which was displayed in the lobby of the local hotel, included the head of a muslim impaled on sword point. I knew some of the people involved with religion-based ethnic cleansing. A variety of groups in other continents routinely engage in wholesale slaughter of competing religions, and christians are no better than muslims (which says a hell of a lot). The fact that people have a harder time getting away with it in civilized countries does not mean that they are fundamentally different, or that they would not revert to type in an instant given the chance. One policy that was common in skydiving in days of yore was "forgive and remember." I am just not big on forgiveness - if you want me to be okay with something bad, don't do it in the first place. BSBD, Winsor Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #77 August 17, 2011 Quote Quote Percentage of jobs created... Texas 51 % rest of the country 49% Get the picture ? Texas under Perry has the fourth-highest poverty rate of any state. It tied with Mississippi last year for the highest percentage of workers in minimum-wage jobs. It ranks first in adults without high school diplomas. Twenty-six percent of Texans have no health insurance — the highest percentage of medically uninsured residents of any state. It leads the nation in the percentage of children who lack medical insurance. Texas has an inordinate number of employers who provide no insurance to their workers, partly because insurance rates are high, thanks to an absence of regulations. In 2008, the state comptroller found that 12 percent of Texans lacked high school diplomas and that the level would rise to 30 percent by 2040 unless the state’s commitment to education was considerably increased. This year, though, Perry slashed $4billion from K-12 schools. In this regard, the equation of Perry with China’s leaders is unfair to China: The Chinese understand that the better educated their people become, the more high-skill and high-compensating jobs their nation will attain. The giant sucking sound Perot warned about is actually coming from Perry's Texas. http://www.politicalmathblog.com/?p=1590Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
futuredivot 0 #78 August 17, 2011 Darn you! Using reality to combat skewed and misrepresented data. Some might consider that an inconvenient truth You are only as strong as the prey you devour Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,147 #79 August 17, 2011 Quote Darn you! Using reality to combat skewed and misrepresented data. Some might consider that an inconvenient truth Depends which one you consider the misrepresentation. The data aren't in conflict if you look carefully. And nothing in his link related to education or health insurance. I guess even Mike can't spin that his way.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #80 August 17, 2011 QuoteWhere I lived in Serbia... A variety of groups in other continents routinely engage in wholesale slaughter of competing religions, and christians are no better than muslims (which says a hell of a lot). I'll grant you that. My assumption was we were talking about America, since that's where this thread started out. Christians here in the U.S. should not be blamed for what others do elsewhere. We've managed to create a civilized society where people live peacefully together despite their differences, and they deserve credit for that. Not scorn because of what happens in less civilized places. In fact, people flock here from those less-civilized places to enjoy our non-violent freedoms. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #81 August 17, 2011 Quote Quote Darn you! Using reality to combat skewed and misrepresented data. Some might consider that an inconvenient truth Depends which one you consider the misrepresentation. The data aren't in conflict if you look carefully. Yup, it's just so terrible that over 700 THOUSAND people moved there looking for jobs. Quote And nothing in his link related to education Did that last month: NEA listings 2009: Grade 8 science: California: 137, below the nat'l average of 149 Texas: 150, not significantly different than nat'l average of 149 Grade 8 math: California: 270, below the nat'l average of 282 Texas: 287, above the nat'l average of 282 Grade 8 reading: California: 253, lower than the nat'l average of 262 Texas: 260, not significantly different than nat'l average of 262 They don't break out history by states...but I don't expect the string to break. Quote I guess even Mike can't spin that his way. And I guess you couldn't do any better than the plagiarize Harold Meyerson.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #82 August 17, 2011 Alright...who posted under your screen name. Logical, sensical, agreeable, without vitriol...quite unlike the Winsor we all know and love.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #83 August 17, 2011 QuoteChristians here in the U.S. should not be blamed for what others do elsewhere.... Hmmmmm, which, in my mind, raises a good question. Is it the religion or is it the people that claim it? My thought is: Meh, it's not the religion itself which many here, and elsewhere, are raving at. It's individuals that are problematic. Many of the antii-religion posts seem to be focused on the religion rather than the individuals who claim a particular one. If you are an asshole, that doesn't make your religion of choice an asshole too. If that were the case, ALL religions are assholes because all religions have asshole adherents, I would think. Oh wait...that's what the anti's are saying, isn't it.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Coreece 190 #84 August 17, 2011 Quote Alright...who posted under your screen name. Logical, sensical, agreeable, without vitriol...quite unlike the Winsor we all know and love. Don't let them fool ya pops...Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
okalb 104 #85 August 17, 2011 QuoteMeh, it's not the religion itself which many here, and elsewhere, are raving at. It's individuals that are problematic. Or is it just that they can get away with it in those places and they can't here. Just because they don't do it here doesn't mean that they wouldn't if they could. The past has shown that when given the chance they will take it. They just don't get the chance here in the US like they do elsewhere.Time flies like an arrow....fruit flies like a banana Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
winsor 236 #86 August 17, 2011 QuoteAlright...who posted under your screen name. Logical, sensical, agreeable, without vitriol...quite unlike the Winsor we all know and love. Nah, it's me. I just expanded a little on why I hold in contempt those given to proselytize. Religion is like sex, where I really am not interested in such gory details as do not involve me. When people spout The Truth (tm) of one flavor or another, with personal testimony, it is truly Too Much Information. Perversion is pretty much anything you would not do, so don't ask, don't tell. At any rate, as Christopher Hitchens noted, "What can be asserted without proof can be dismissed without proof." BSBD, Winsor Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #87 August 17, 2011 QuoteQuoteMeh, it's not the religion itself which many here, and elsewhere, are raving at. It's individuals that are problematic. Or is it just that they can get away with it in those places and they can't here. Just because they don't do it here doesn't mean that they wouldn't if they could. The past has shown that when given the chance they will take it. They just don't get the chance here in the US like they do elsewhere. Perhaps we are all barbarians when you strip away the structure of society with law and order. But that would mean that everyone everywhere is an a**hole. But rather than judge people by what "might" happen in the worst of circumstances, I prefer to judge by what they actually are right now. And here in America, religious people aren't causing mass violence, and aren't a problem. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freethefly 6 #89 August 19, 2011 QuoteAnd here in America, religious people aren't causing mass violence, and aren't a problem. I wouldn't say that lightly. In the past militant Christian based groups and individuals have caused their fair share of violence or attempted to do so. The Michigan based Hutaree militia quickly came to mind. Had they not been arrested, they very much would had put their plan into action. http://documents.nytimes.com/indictment-of-the-hutaree-militia?ref=us#document/p1 There are still a large number of militias operating in the U.S. The Southern Poverty Law Center has an extensive list of 1002 active "patriot" groups. Many of these groups are "militias". Near all of them are extreme right wing Christian based groups. http://www.splcenter.org/get-informed/hate-map These groups are every bit as dangerous as any militant Islamic group. If you don't believe that groups like the Westboro Church group is not dangerous, give them time and they are sure to prove you wrong."...And once you're gone, you can't come back When you're out of the blue and into the black." Neil Young Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
