Warren Buffett calls for higher taxes for US super rich

[rushmc 23]

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If this woman paid more than Mr Buffet then, the correct solution, is to LOWER the tax rate paid by her

You seem to be comparing apples and oranges in that one sentence.

Can't compare actual taxes paid to tax rates. In this case, she would have paid less tax dollars, but a higher tax rate.

Which is exactly my point!!!!

Her rate should be lowered!

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[SkyDekker 1,465]

uhmmm, in case you haven't seen the news lately...but most countries tend to have a problem with matching income to expenses. The concept of lowering tax rates to increase income hasn't worked so well....

[kallend 2,148]

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On one hand it's taxing money twice..

Money isn't taxed, people (and virtual people, like corporations) are taxed.

You too have drunk the GOP Kool-Aid.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[rushmc 23]

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uhmmm, in case you haven't seen the news lately...but most countries tend to have a problem with matching income to expenses. The concept of lowering tax rates to increase income hasn't worked so well....

But lower spending works every time it is tried!

We do not have a revenue problem
We have a spending problem

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[rushmc 23]

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On one hand it's taxing money twice..

Money isn't taxed, people (and virtual people, like corporations) are taxed.

You too have drunk the GOP Kool-Aid.

The only drunk one here is you

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[billvon 3,116]

>The only drunk one here is you

Enough.

[kallend 2,148]

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On one hand it's taxing money twice..

Money isn't taxed, people (and virtual people, like corporations) are taxed.

You too have drunk the GOP Kool-Aid.

The only drunk one here is you

So tell us, genius, what is the tax rate on a $20 bill? How about the tax rate on a $1 Susan B. Anthony coin?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[rushmc 23]

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On one hand it's taxing money twice..

Money isn't taxed, people (and virtual people, like corporations) are taxed.

You too have drunk the GOP Kool-Aid.

The only drunk one here is you

So tell us, genius, what is the tax rate on a $20 bill? How about the tax rate on a $1 Susan B. Anthony coin?

There is not one

But that is really not the point now is it

ah

genius?
Is that the word YOU used?

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[shah269 0]

The IDEA was that your average joe would not have to pay too high a tax on his IRA or 401k when he or she retired. Furthermore it was a little odd...pay tax on the money you make twice?

But then those with MILLIONS started playing the game. And quickly it got nutty. People were no longer paid in cash in some cases they were paid with stocks and CEO pay went nutty.

Why? Well look if you paid a guy $10mill he lost half to taxes so why pay him that much? But if you pay him say $10mill in stocks...he only pays 10% in taxes. Thus you as a CEO can get paid much MUCH MUCH MORE and still get taxed very little and in some cases next to nothing.

The tax burden of compensation would in effect be pushed down to the consumer in either higher costs or reduced dividends on investment.

If you ever truly wish to be pissed off determine the cost of doing business in terms of the fees you pay on your IRA or 401k.
I'll give you a hint...well over 70% goes towards compensation.

Look it started off as a very good idea perhaps it needs a modification to keep a very good idea relevant.

Life through good thoughts, good words, and good deeds is necessary to ensure happiness and to keep chaos at bay.

The only thing that falls from the sky is birdshit and fools!

[kallend 2,148]

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On one hand it's taxing money twice..

Money isn't taxed, people (and virtual people, like corporations) are taxed.

You too have drunk the GOP Kool-Aid.

The only drunk one here is you

So tell us, genius, what is the tax rate on a $20 bill? How about the tax rate on a $1 Susan B. Anthony coin?

There is not one

But that is really not the point now is it

It IS the point. It goes to show that money isn't taxed, people are. So all the GOP whining about double taxation is just that, whining.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[rushmc 23]

To put it the correct way

Income, which IS money is what is taxed.

How the income gets to you changes the rate at which it IS taxed

Employee income is taxed at different rates depending on income and deductions

Investment income, is taxed differently (15%) because you have to (wait for it) "invest" in something and then wait for a return or lose it based on the level of risk. Most often, "investment dollars" are dollars or these, Susan B Anthony's, (that you talked about) are monies left over from other Susan B's and other denominations of currency that have been TAXED before.

I know it is terribly hard to understand
Especially when one chooses not too

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[shah269 0]

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On one hand it's taxing money twice..

Money isn't taxed, people (and virtual people, like corporations) are taxed.

You too have drunk the GOP Kool-Aid.

kallend
Sorry too many economics classes.
Yes you are taxed but in theory we state "the money/income/prouct is taxed."

Yes you are right, you as the individual receive the income are taxed. But to keep things clear we indicated that the funds are taxed.

In this case you are taxed twice. You earn the money, are taxed on that earnings, you then invest the money and when that money makes a profit and when you pull it out you were also taxed. But due to the large number of people who now have retirement accounts such as IRA's and 401k's taxing these middle class folks twice just didn't seem right thus the tax law was modified to substantially reduce the tax on collecting ones return.

Hope that helps.

Life through good thoughts, good words, and good deeds is necessary to ensure happiness and to keep chaos at bay.

The only thing that falls from the sky is birdshit and fools!

[billvon 3,116]

>Well look if you paid a guy $10mill he lost half to taxes so why pay him that much?
>But if you pay him say $10mill in stocks...he only pays 10% in taxes.

No and no. If you pay someone in cash they will lose a maximum of 35% to the federal taxes. If you pay someone in stocks they will lose a maximum of 35% to the federal government.

You may be thinking of stock _options_ which is a method of giving someone the option to purchase a stock at a lower price in the future when the stock is higher. Taxes on those are deferred, and thus you can get a lot of stock options and pay nothing until you cash them out, perhaps when you have retired and are in a lower tax bracket.

Or you may be thinking of a capital gains tax. If you buy stocks and hold them for more than a year, the tax on the _gain_ you make is only 15%. (This is intended to encourage long term investment as opposed to day trading.)

[kallend 2,148]

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To put it the correct way

Income, which IS money is what is taxed.

How the income gets to you changes the rate at which it IS taxed

Employee income is taxed at different rates depending on income and deductions

Investment income, is taxed differently (15%) because you have to (wait for it) "invest" in something and then wait for a return or lose it based on the level of risk. Most often, "investment dollars" are dollars or these, Susan B Anthony's, (that you talked about) are monies left over from other Susan B's and other denominations of currency that have been TAXED before.

I know it is terribly hard to understand
Especially when one chooses not too

Following along that silly argument, sales tax amounts to multiple taxation because that money was already taxed when I earned it, and previously when earned by a multitude of individuals who handled it before my employer got it. Just think how many people have engaged in transactions using a penny issued in 1968 - wow, that money must have been taxed tens of thousands of times using rushmc logic!

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[rushmc 23]

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Quote

To put it the correct way

Income, which IS money is what is taxed.

How the income gets to you changes the rate at which it IS taxed

Employee income is taxed at different rates depending on income and deductions

Investment income, is taxed differently (15%) because you have to (wait for it) "invest" in something and then wait for a return or lose it based on the level of risk. Most often, "investment dollars" are dollars or these, Susan B Anthony's, (that you talked about) are monies left over from other Susan B's and other denominations of currency that have been TAXED before.

I know it is terribly hard to understand
Especially when one chooses not too

Following along that silly argument, sales tax amounts to multiple taxation because that money was already taxed when I earned it, and previously when earned by a multitude of individuals who handled it before my employer got it. Just think how many people have engaged in transactions using a penny issued in 1968 - wow, that money must have been taxed tens of thousands of times using rushmc logic!

Oh looky

You do get it

Progress

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[rushmc 23]

Same for the inheritance tax

Now just add VAT and what do you get?

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[kallend 2,148]

Money isn't taxed, people (and virtual people, like corporations) are taxed.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[shah269 0]

billvon
I'm sorry...doing home work / work work and this...
You are 100% right. I was talking about capital gains tax.

Yes you pay the CEO in stocks and when they sell in a year they are taxed at a lower rate than the average Joe.

God I wish my tax on my income was only 15% my tax rate on my income is about 30%. I could use another 15K!

Life through good thoughts, good words, and good deeds is necessary to ensure happiness and to keep chaos at bay.

The only thing that falls from the sky is birdshit and fools!

[kallend 2,148]

Quote

Quote

Quote

To put it the correct way

Income, which IS money is what is taxed.

How the income gets to you changes the rate at which it IS taxed

Employee income is taxed at different rates depending on income and deductions

Investment income, is taxed differently (15%) because you have to (wait for it) "invest" in something and then wait for a return or lose it based on the level of risk. Most often, "investment dollars" are dollars or these, Susan B Anthony's, (that you talked about) are monies left over from other Susan B's and other denominations of currency that have been TAXED before.

I know it is terribly hard to understand
Especially when one chooses not too

Following along that silly argument, sales tax amounts to multiple taxation because that money was already taxed when I earned it, and previously when earned by a multitude of individuals who handled it before my employer got it. Just think how many people have engaged in transactions using a penny issued in 1968 - wow, that money must have been taxed tens of thousands of times using rushmc logic!

Oh looky

You do get it

Progress

It will be real progress when you and Shah get it too. Money isn't taxed, people (and virtual people, like corporations) are taxed.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kelpdiver 2]

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Why? Well look if you paid a guy $10mill he lost half to taxes so why pay him that much? But if you pay him say $10mill in stocks...he only pays 10% in taxes. Thus you as a CEO can get paid much MUCH MUCH MORE and still get taxed very little and in some cases next to nothing.

Bill already covered this. There's no 10% tax rate. He's either pay 35% for the stock grant or for exercising the options. Or if he uses the options to buy the stock with his own cash (ie, investing in the company) and holds it for 12+ months, then he'll pay the 15% long term capital gains rate.

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If you ever truly wish to be pissed off determine the cost of doing business in terms of the fees you pay on your IRA or 401k.
I'll give you a hint...well over 70% goes towards compensation.

And what's the problem with that? Would you prefer it be spent on advertising? The issue is the fee rate, not where it is spent. 70% of 8-10 basis points (SPY, VTI) is fine. 70% of 2% per year is a different concern altogether.

[kallend 2,148]

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Paying (at a minimum) the same percentage as 'middle-income' taxpayers.

I'll give him the benefit of the doubt and see what he comes up with. We already have AMT in the tax code so I'm curious what his 'proposal' will actually involve.

AMT isn't a tax on the super rich.
The way the AMT is structured it affects middle income people too, not just the "super rich".

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[shah269 0]

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Or if he uses the options to buy the stock with his own cash (ie, investing in the company) and holds it for 12+ months, then he'll pay the 15% long term capital gains rate.

And what's the problem with that? Would you prefer it be spent on advertising?

So if I barrow money and buy back my own stocks.....I'll only bay 15% + 5% interest?
OK I'll take 20% to 30% in tax + interest.

Second, how about maybe just maybe paying people more for their investment.

Remember the more the CEO makes...the less I as an individual investor get.

Life through good thoughts, good words, and good deeds is necessary to ensure happiness and to keep chaos at bay.

The only thing that falls from the sky is birdshit and fools!

[kelpdiver 2]

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Yes you pay the CEO in stocks and when they sell in a year they are taxed at a lower rate than the average Joe.

nope. if you pay the CEO with stock, that's treated as regular income. In 12 months if he sells it, he'll pay 15% on the gain.

[billvon 3,116]

>Yes you pay the CEO in stocks and when they sell in a year they are taxed at a lower
>rate than the average Joe.

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No, in no case can he "get the stocks and pay lower taxes than the average Joe." Here's what his options are:

1) CEO gets paid $10 million a year in stocks. That tax year he pays ~35% in taxes* on that $10 million in stocks. He sells them immediately for the same price. No additional income, no additional tax.

2) CEO gets paid $10 million a year in stocks. That tax year he pays ~35% in taxes* on that $10 million in stocks. He holds onto them for two years and sells them. He makes $1 million on the increase in value. He pays 15% in tax on the gains.

3) CEO gets paid $10 million a year in stocks. That tax year he pays ~35% in taxes* on that $10 million in stocks. He holds onto them for two years and sells them. He loses $1 million on the decrease in value. He takes a loss.

4) CEO gets paid $10 million a year in stock OPTIONS. They do not vest for two years. That year he pays nothing, because he has received nothing of immediate value. In two years he exercises them - he buys those $10 million in options, then sells them at $11 million since the stock rose, resulting in a gain of $1 million. He then pays ~35% on his income.

5) CEO gets paid $10 million a year in stock OPTIONS. They do not vest for two years. That year he pays nothing, because he has received nothing of immediate value. In two years he exercises them - he buys those $10 million in options, then sells them at $9 million since the stock fell. He then takes a loss. (And in fact is $1 million in the hole, since he lost $1 million on the transaction.)

6) (This is the one you may be thinking of.) CEO gets paid $10 million a year in stock OPTIONS. They do not vest for two years. That year he pays nothing, because he has received nothing of immediate value. In two years he exercises them - he buys those $10 million in options, then holds them as stock. He immediately pays 35% on the increase in value, since he now has stock worth $11 million. He then sells them in two years when they are at $12 million. At that point he only pays 15% on the gain between the second and fourth years.

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(* - he actually pays 35% on every dollar over $380,000 he makes, but it's close.)

[rushmc 23]

AMT isn't a tax on the super rich.
The way the AMT is structured it affects middle income people too, not just the "super rich".