captain_stan 0 #51 August 11, 2011 Quote Quote Quote I haven't heard anyone in this thread propose a special "church tax!" You're right, so far you're the only person that brought it up... Actually you did in your previous post #23, on which I was commenting. No I didn't...Your post #23, Opie: "I'm no fan of these prosperity gospel mega churches either, but I'm not so sure taxing them is such a wise idea," sure sounds like you're commenting on the idea of a church tax. I'm still waitin' for you to quote where I had brought this up in an earlier post. If we're down to the "no I didn't--yes you did," then I'm done here. Last word is yours unless you've read all my other posts and want to discuss. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freethefly 6 #52 August 11, 2011 Quoteare we still talking about churches? or can we just right now extend your comment to big corporations and the Democrats (since the republicans that fit the bill are already counted in the churchy portion, no need to call it twice). That's what I'm asking, in a round about way. Is a bidding war that has gotten to 50M dollars more inline with that of corporate business or that of a church? I just find it to be mind boggling that a "church" that offers little more than books to sell to their followers can even be considered a church. They are more inline with being a corporation and should be taxed as such."...And once you're gone, you can't come back When you're out of the blue and into the black." Neil Young Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #53 August 11, 2011 Quote Quote Quote Quote Quote Hundreds of thousands of dollars of emergency funds were used to upgrade (?) the jail. What did they do? they painted the cells pink. Sounds like cruel and unusual punishment to me. Actually, it's recognized that the color pink has a calming effect. Seems like you're agreeing with me. That painting the cells pink is cruel and unusual punishment? Nope, sure aren't. Well, I'll guess I'll have to believe you because I'VE NOT been locked in oneNeither have I.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #54 August 11, 2011 Quote The Supreme Court has ruled poll taxes illegal because they are an infringement on the constitutional right to vote. Likewise, a tax on religion is an infringment on the constitutional right to freedom of religion. Are you okay with charging citizens $20 for their voter registration card? But the question at hand here is not charging the parishioners $20 to attend church. It's whether or not they should be able to deduct the $20 they gave to their church on their tax return. In effect, the government is paying them a kickback of say $8 for having given $20 to a religious entity. A lot of money donated to the churches gets used for purposes as noble as any of the non profits, and often with much less overhead. A categorical removal of tax deductability seems inappropriate. But when you look at the monstrousities like the Crystal Cathedral, or most of the LDS Kremlin knockoffs, it certainly begs the question if we should be subsidizing this sort of construction. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #55 August 11, 2011 QuoteIn effect, the government is paying them a kickback of say $8 for having given $20 to a religious entity. Just like someone that donates $20 to the Red Cross gets an $8 kickback.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
captain_stan 0 #56 August 11, 2011 QuoteBut the question at hand here is not charging the parishioners $20 to attend church. It's whether or not they should be able to deduct the $20 they gave to their church on their tax return. In effect, the government is paying them a kickback of say $8 for having given $20 to a religious entity. Finally, a good understanding and explanation of the economic reality. And unlike a charity, these folks can expect to get some return on their tax-free contributions with membership and benefits from their private club, unlike donating to a charity that helps only other people. Church = Red Cross? My ass! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GeorgiaDon 380 #57 August 11, 2011 QuoteQuote. On the other hand, Blue Cross is run as a non-profit and the CEO is paid several million/year I believe. Don Running a large multi state multi national organization is not a skill most people posses. You have to pay for that kind of talent, or you get substandard people in that role. That was my point, although I admit it wasn't clear from my post. Don_____________________________________ Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996) “Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tkhayes 348 #58 August 11, 2011 the tax is not on 'religion'. Most of these 'religions' are corporations. they file tax returns and they make profits. They are also capable of paying taxes, but they receive a free ride from the government because of religion's influence, and for no other reason. so it actually have nothing to do with 'freedom of speech or expression' of whatever other crap you want to come up with. They are corporations. They generate revenues and tend to make a profit. tax them like everyone else. Oh yeah, and did I mention that the Roman Catholic Church is an organized crime syndicate perpetrating child molestation and to this day still supporting an ongoing criminal organization? Or do the RICO statues also not apply just because they are a 'religion'? Oh, but I digress - I really should try to control myself. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GeorgiaDon 380 #59 August 11, 2011 QuoteChurches are a business and should be taxed as such. Government shouldn't be giving ANY organization special deals, penalties, or subsidies. Not taxing them is equivalent to propping them up or subsidization. This is another example of gov sticking their noses in areas they just aren't needed. Tax - keep it simple, and stay out of our business, otherwiseSo would you advocate repealing the 4th amendment, or just ignoring it altogether? It sure is a bitch when that pesky constitution gets in the way of the "will of the people", except for the 2nd amendment I suppose. That one can stay, so the liberals won't be able to take your guns. Don_____________________________________ Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996) “Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tkhayes 348 #60 August 11, 2011 how does the 4th amendment play into this? Religions are mostly corporations. they should pay taxes. The constitution gives you the right to own a gun. Does not mean that govt cannot charge you a registration for that gun. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #61 August 11, 2011 Quotehow does the 4th amendment play into this? Religions are mostly corporations. they should pay taxes. The constitution gives you the right to own a gun. Does not mean that govt cannot charge you a registration for that gun. Given that logic, then gov't can charge you a fee to get a voter registration card. Or a fee to get a free speech card. Do you support those, too?Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
captain_stan 0 #62 August 11, 2011 QuoteSo would you advocate repealing the 4th amendment, or just ignoring it altogether? It sure is a bitch when that pesky constitution gets in the way of the "will of the people", except for the 2nd amendment I suppose. That one can stay, so the liberals won't be able to take your guns. Not even a close analogy. When I donate to my local gun club, unlike the church, the contributions and dues are not tax-exempt, and yet there is no constitutional conflict. Is the Fed taxing my right to bear arms? No, they're taxing the income I choose to spend on a private club. How is a church any different? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DanJohnson 0 #63 August 11, 2011 Then you get the same "tax break" that the religious do - congratulations, one less thing you get to worry about. Quote Baloney! Churches get a "property tax" exemption. In other words all those that don't believe in the creed or credibility of that particular church are forced by government to pay for that churches police and fire protection,x-tra wear and tear on the roads infront of the church, etc. Considering the Constitutions' seperation of church and state,mnealtx, How do you justify the local citizenry being forced to pay in full the churches portion of local taxes? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kelpdiver 2 #64 August 12, 2011 QuoteQuoteIn effect, the government is paying them a kickback of say $8 for having given $20 to a religious entity. Just like someone that donates $20 to the Red Cross gets an $8 kickback. yes, and if the Church used that $20 to run a soup kitchen, this would be a valid response. If they're building an (in my opinion) affront to god in the form of a gaudy building, or paying the limo driver for the slicked hair preacher, it is not. And as pointed out, you may be obtaining services (prayer) back in exchange for that $20. When you contribute money to a charity and get services, you have to subtract the value of those services from the donation amount before declaring it on your tax return. These are two very significant differences. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites GeorgiaDon 380 #65 August 12, 2011 Quotehow does the 4th amendment play into this? Religions are mostly corporations. they should pay taxes. See post #22 in this thread (page 1) where I explain the law behind the tax exempt status of churches. Don_____________________________________ Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996) “Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mnealtx 0 #66 August 12, 2011 QuoteAnd as pointed out, you may be obtaining services (prayer) back in exchange for that $20. When you contribute money to a charity and get services, you have to subtract the value of those services from the donation amount before declaring it on your tax return. These are two very significant differences. Sure thing - can you tell me just what value the IRS places on prayer, so that it can properly accounted for?Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,148 #67 August 12, 2011 QuoteQuoteAnd as pointed out, you may be obtaining services (prayer) back in exchange for that $20. When you contribute money to a charity and get services, you have to subtract the value of those services from the donation amount before declaring it on your tax return. These are two very significant differences. Sure thing - can you tell me just what value the IRS places on prayer, so that it can properly accounted for? It's the supplier of the services who determines its value, not the IRS. They will give you a statement if it's over (I believe) $500. The church should say how much the prayer is worth.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites tkhayes 348 #68 August 12, 2011 I think your logic is actually correct. Yes, they could conceivably charge a feee for a registration card. And while that may be true (or not) is does not and should not reflect on the fact that most churches and religions are corporations - they are run for profit and they should be taxed, same as everyone else. IBM donates to charity, but they still pay corporate taxes. Churches donate to charity and still have employees, benefits, pensions, income, expenses, etc. they should pay taxes. We are SO long over that point where it is assumed that the church is 'untouchable' and that is pretty much all it is. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mnealtx 0 #69 August 12, 2011 QuoteQuoteQuoteAnd as pointed out, you may be obtaining services (prayer) back in exchange for that $20. When you contribute money to a charity and get services, you have to subtract the value of those services from the donation amount before declaring it on your tax return. These are two very significant differences. Sure thing - can you tell me just what value the IRS places on prayer, so that it can properly accounted for? It's the supplier of the services who determines its value, not the IRS. They will give you a statement if it's over (I believe) $500. The church should say how much the prayer is worth. So, until the church starts sending out 1099 forms, there's no difference between the $20 donated to them and the $20 donated to the Red Cross - thanks for clearing that up.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mnealtx 0 #70 August 12, 2011 QuoteWe are SO long over that point where it is assumed that the church is 'untouchable' and that is pretty much all it is. The Supreme Court says differently and that is pretty much all it is.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites popsjumper 2 #71 August 12, 2011 Quote It's the supplier of the services who determines its value, not the IRS. They will give you a statement if it's over (I believe) $500. The church should say how much the prayer is worth. Send me $20. I'll pray for you. Send me $40 and I'll pray twice as hard. Send me $60 so I can pay the taxes on that prayer.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites GeorgiaDon 380 #72 August 12, 2011 Quotethey should pay taxes. We are SO long over that point where it is assumed that the church is 'untouchable' and that is pretty much all it is. Be careful what you wish for. The 4th amendment is our only constitutional protection against a government run theocracy. Given the spread of fundamentalist Christianity in this country I'm reluctant to surrender that protection, even if it means we have to forgo some tax revenue. Also you still haven't read post #22, have you? Don_____________________________________ Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996) “Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,148 #73 August 12, 2011 Quote Quote Quote Quote And as pointed out, you may be obtaining services (prayer) back in exchange for that $20. When you contribute money to a charity and get services, you have to subtract the value of those services from the donation amount before declaring it on your tax return. These are two very significant differences. Sure thing - can you tell me just what value the IRS places on prayer, so that it can properly accounted for? It's the supplier of the services who determines its value, not the IRS. They will give you a statement if it's over (I believe) $500. The church should say how much the prayer is worth. So, until the church starts sending out 1099 forms, there's no difference between the $20 donated to them and the $20 donated to the Red Cross - thanks for clearing that up. If the donor deducts the full donation to the church (and i suspect they all do) then they are implicitly saying that prayer is worthless, or they are tax cheats. And it's not declared on a 1099 anyway.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mnealtx 0 #74 August 12, 2011 Quote And it's not declared on a 1099 anyway. I've never claimed any of my charitable donations against taxes, so I'll bow to your greater experience.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites freethefly 6 #75 August 12, 2011 QuoteThe 4th amendment is our only constitutional protection against a government run theocracy. That amendment concerns search and seizure. I believe you meant the 1rst amendment. This is a good read on the subject: http://www.politicususa.com/en/gop-christian-theocrats Edit to say the link concerning theocracy applies more to the Rick Perry debate than it does in this thread concerning church and taxes."...And once you're gone, you can't come back When you're out of the blue and into the black." Neil Young Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 Next Page 3 of 4 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
kelpdiver 2 #64 August 12, 2011 QuoteQuoteIn effect, the government is paying them a kickback of say $8 for having given $20 to a religious entity. Just like someone that donates $20 to the Red Cross gets an $8 kickback. yes, and if the Church used that $20 to run a soup kitchen, this would be a valid response. If they're building an (in my opinion) affront to god in the form of a gaudy building, or paying the limo driver for the slicked hair preacher, it is not. And as pointed out, you may be obtaining services (prayer) back in exchange for that $20. When you contribute money to a charity and get services, you have to subtract the value of those services from the donation amount before declaring it on your tax return. These are two very significant differences. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GeorgiaDon 380 #65 August 12, 2011 Quotehow does the 4th amendment play into this? Religions are mostly corporations. they should pay taxes. See post #22 in this thread (page 1) where I explain the law behind the tax exempt status of churches. Don_____________________________________ Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996) “Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #66 August 12, 2011 QuoteAnd as pointed out, you may be obtaining services (prayer) back in exchange for that $20. When you contribute money to a charity and get services, you have to subtract the value of those services from the donation amount before declaring it on your tax return. These are two very significant differences. Sure thing - can you tell me just what value the IRS places on prayer, so that it can properly accounted for?Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,148 #67 August 12, 2011 QuoteQuoteAnd as pointed out, you may be obtaining services (prayer) back in exchange for that $20. When you contribute money to a charity and get services, you have to subtract the value of those services from the donation amount before declaring it on your tax return. These are two very significant differences. Sure thing - can you tell me just what value the IRS places on prayer, so that it can properly accounted for? It's the supplier of the services who determines its value, not the IRS. They will give you a statement if it's over (I believe) $500. The church should say how much the prayer is worth.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tkhayes 348 #68 August 12, 2011 I think your logic is actually correct. Yes, they could conceivably charge a feee for a registration card. And while that may be true (or not) is does not and should not reflect on the fact that most churches and religions are corporations - they are run for profit and they should be taxed, same as everyone else. IBM donates to charity, but they still pay corporate taxes. Churches donate to charity and still have employees, benefits, pensions, income, expenses, etc. they should pay taxes. We are SO long over that point where it is assumed that the church is 'untouchable' and that is pretty much all it is. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #69 August 12, 2011 QuoteQuoteQuoteAnd as pointed out, you may be obtaining services (prayer) back in exchange for that $20. When you contribute money to a charity and get services, you have to subtract the value of those services from the donation amount before declaring it on your tax return. These are two very significant differences. Sure thing - can you tell me just what value the IRS places on prayer, so that it can properly accounted for? It's the supplier of the services who determines its value, not the IRS. They will give you a statement if it's over (I believe) $500. The church should say how much the prayer is worth. So, until the church starts sending out 1099 forms, there's no difference between the $20 donated to them and the $20 donated to the Red Cross - thanks for clearing that up.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #70 August 12, 2011 QuoteWe are SO long over that point where it is assumed that the church is 'untouchable' and that is pretty much all it is. The Supreme Court says differently and that is pretty much all it is.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #71 August 12, 2011 Quote It's the supplier of the services who determines its value, not the IRS. They will give you a statement if it's over (I believe) $500. The church should say how much the prayer is worth. Send me $20. I'll pray for you. Send me $40 and I'll pray twice as hard. Send me $60 so I can pay the taxes on that prayer.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GeorgiaDon 380 #72 August 12, 2011 Quotethey should pay taxes. We are SO long over that point where it is assumed that the church is 'untouchable' and that is pretty much all it is. Be careful what you wish for. The 4th amendment is our only constitutional protection against a government run theocracy. Given the spread of fundamentalist Christianity in this country I'm reluctant to surrender that protection, even if it means we have to forgo some tax revenue. Also you still haven't read post #22, have you? Don_____________________________________ Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996) “Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,148 #73 August 12, 2011 Quote Quote Quote Quote And as pointed out, you may be obtaining services (prayer) back in exchange for that $20. When you contribute money to a charity and get services, you have to subtract the value of those services from the donation amount before declaring it on your tax return. These are two very significant differences. Sure thing - can you tell me just what value the IRS places on prayer, so that it can properly accounted for? It's the supplier of the services who determines its value, not the IRS. They will give you a statement if it's over (I believe) $500. The church should say how much the prayer is worth. So, until the church starts sending out 1099 forms, there's no difference between the $20 donated to them and the $20 donated to the Red Cross - thanks for clearing that up. If the donor deducts the full donation to the church (and i suspect they all do) then they are implicitly saying that prayer is worthless, or they are tax cheats. And it's not declared on a 1099 anyway.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #74 August 12, 2011 Quote And it's not declared on a 1099 anyway. I've never claimed any of my charitable donations against taxes, so I'll bow to your greater experience.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freethefly 6 #75 August 12, 2011 QuoteThe 4th amendment is our only constitutional protection against a government run theocracy. That amendment concerns search and seizure. I believe you meant the 1rst amendment. This is a good read on the subject: http://www.politicususa.com/en/gop-christian-theocrats Edit to say the link concerning theocracy applies more to the Rick Perry debate than it does in this thread concerning church and taxes."...And once you're gone, you can't come back When you're out of the blue and into the black." Neil Young Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
