The delusioned in a bidding war

[Coreece 190]

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I haven't heard anyone in this thread propose a special "church tax!"

You're right, so far you're the only person that brought it up...

Perhaps you'd like to respond to the meat of my post?

Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are...

[freethefly 6]

GeorgiaDon and Southernman, thanks for good input and food for thought.
My question concerns the mega-ministries, such as Joyce Meyer, with regards to taxes as is questioned in this article.
http://healtheland.wordpress.com/2007/11/06/mainstream-media-exposes-joyce-meyer-she-received-millions/

From the article;
Joyce Meyer Ministries has been battling Jefferson County Assessor Randy
Holman for several years to keep its $30 million headquarters and its contents
off the tax rolls.

It seems, to me and others, that the mega church main agenda is mega wealth and very little of anything they preach. They appear to be using tax havens to support lavish lifestyles. Not at all what they preach to their followers from their bible to live a humble life. They do not practice what they preach, but the complete opposite.

"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young

[mnealtx 0]

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They do not practice what they preach, but the complete opposite.

So they're like every *other* politician?

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[captain_stan 0]

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the benefit of the church to the community offsets the tax issue.

Still not sure how "God Damn America!" benefits the community. (you are refuting my post aren't you?)

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Must have missed where it was the government that gave the church the money.

OK, I'll help you out. It's the Dem/Rep shell game of tax-and-deduct or tax-and-credit. Lower the income tax for one group (churchies) and keep taxing everyone else the same. The catch? Only the churchies get that deduction. I call that a backhanded subsidy because the government will have to make up for the loss of this revenue, like increasing tax in some other way or letting the debt increase. But that's why I'm not a Dem or Repub. You can call me whatever you like--It won't affect my credibility with others--might even help.

If you still don't understand, go back and read my other posts. You've already worn me down with determination, if not intellect. I'm not gonna get into one of your rant wars.

My answer to your next reply is the paragraph above.

[Coreece 190]

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They appear to be using tax havens to support lavish lifestyles. Not at all what they preach to their followers from their bible to live a humble life.

That may be true, but many are just motivational speakers that throw in a couple Bible verses and shout "praise Jesus" a couple times to make it appear that they're actually a Church...I've even heard that Joel Osteen has vendors walking up and down the aisles selling popcorn during service...

Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are...

[mnealtx 0]

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If you still don't understand, go back and read my other posts.

You mean the ones where you mistate the tax issue? Already did.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[Southern_Man 0]

Oh, another caveat to the minister's income tax rules: ministers (and I believe this applies to other nonprofits as well) are not to receive "excessive salary." What's excessive salary, you may ask? Whatever the IRS declares (retrospectively) that it is. This appears to be what Ms. Meyer has run afoul of. Unlike what the article linked states, there really is not a limit on what somebody can make and there is no limit on what a nonprofit can own. These things are assessed on a case by case basis where the IRS investigates and determines retroactively that compensation has been excessive. The IRS has pointedly refused to issue guidelines by which an organization may determine if the compensation they are giving is reasonable.

There also appear to be issues w/ the property tax exemption I mentioned above. Again, I don't know details of either her ministry or the local tax statutes. If there are no services or congregation it would be consistent with the places I've lived that they would owe property taxes. I am pretty sure the churches were not allowed to own more than one manse per pastor, either, although I would really have to check that.

Another thing to consider is that not all megachurches are structured the same way. Rick Warren limited his salary for a number of years to $67,000 a year (yes that is not exactly starvation level but not high at all compared to his congregants or other pastors). He didn't need it, he made serious bank on his books which were considered his side interests. I think Bill Hybels was similar as well. Ms. Meyer appears to have run all of her compensation from books, videos series, speaking engagements, etc. through the ministry itself. That is a lot messier but perhaps necessary if she does not have a standing congregation, I couldn't really see that she does.

Ms. Meyer preaches a prosperity gospel, so I don't see that there is a difference between what she preaches and what she lives. People may disagree w/ the contents of her preaching but hypocrisy doesn't seem to apply here (at least in my judgment).

"What if there were no hypothetical questions?"

[captain_stan 0]

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I haven't heard anyone in this thread propose a special "church tax!"

You're right, so far you're the only person that brought it up...

Actually you did in your previous post #23, on which I was commenting.

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Perhaps you'd like to respond to the meat of my post?

If only I thought it was that important. Perhaps you'd like to learn how to read and find a hillbilly bass-fishing forum so you could leave the skydivers alone. (nice avatar, Opie)

[GeorgiaDon 380]

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It seems, to me and others, that the mega church main agenda is mega wealth and very little of anything they preach. They appear to be using tax havens to support lavish lifestyles. Not at all what they preach to their followers from their bible to live a humble life. They do not practice what they preach, but the complete opposite.

I don't know what they preach; it's my understanding that many such evangelical churches preach that God will reward His followers with material success. Wealth is seen as a sign of divine favor. Mainstream Christian churches are more likely to preach the merits of a humble life, and to demand that of their ministers and priests (such as the vow of poverty that Catholic priests must take).

Anyway, legally the point is moot. If Congress and churches are held to be separate sovereign entities, neither with power over the other, then Congress has no authority to set limits on the theological stance of churches. In reality this is tempered some by the fact that (in the US) church members as individuals are US citizens, and so subject to Congress. Even if the church endorses a practice that is otherwise illegal, such as having sex with 12-year-olds, church members and even ministers will go to jail if they engage in that practice, as Warren Jeffs recently found out. However, in the US outrageous wealth is hardly a crime, even if it is obtained by deceiving the gullible into believing they will get some heavenly reward for surrendering their hard earned money.

Don

_____________________________________
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

[GeorgiaDon 380]

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Oh, another caveat to the minister's income tax rules: ministers (and I believe this applies to other nonprofits as well) are not to receive "excessive salary." What's excessive salary, you may ask? Whatever the IRS declares (retrospectively) that it is.

Interesting, I didn't know that.

A local "non-profit" food bank got into legal trouble and was shut down recently, as it turned out the operation was run by a husband/wife/2 adult children with a combined payroll of over 5 million a year. They received food donations from many sources, then sold those donations to churches and other groups to supply soup kitchens and food banks. Perhaps it was the "excessive salary" that got them into trouble. Also the donors (including some very large food store chains) thought their donations were going directly to the food banks, and were shocked to find out the food was being resold (albeit at discounted prices) to the actual food banks. On the other hand, Blue Cross is run as a non-profit and the CEO is paid several million/year I believe.

Don

_____________________________________
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

[DougH 270]

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. On the other hand, Blue Cross is run as a non-profit and the CEO is paid several million/year I believe.

Don

Running a large multi state multi national organization is not a skill most people posses. You have to pay for that kind of talent, or you get substandard people in that role.

Who would want to run a corporation or a large nonprofit for 90K a year? I wouldn't keep the money, not even close to the amount of effort involved.

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[JohnRich 4]

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Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

What part of that sentance states that churches should be exempt from taxes? If they should be, why should newspapers, concern halls, or lawyers be taxed?

The Supreme Court has ruled poll taxes illegal because they are an infringement on the constitutional right to vote. Likewise, a tax on religion is an infringment on the constitutional right to freedom of religion.

Are you okay with charging citizens $20 for their voter registration card?

[kallend 2,148]

[reply Hundreds of thousands of dollars of emergency funds were used to upgrade (?) the jail. What did they do? they painted the cells pink.

[rehmwa 2]

Churches are a business and should be taxed as such.

Government shouldn't be giving ANY organization special deals, penalties, or subsidies. Not taxing them is equivalent to propping them up or subsidization.

This is another example of gov sticking their noses in areas they just aren't needed.

Tax - keep it simple, and stay out of our business, otherwise

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[mnealtx 0]

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[reply Hundreds of thousands of dollars of emergency funds were used to upgrade (?) the jail. What did they do? they painted the cells pink.

Sounds like cruel and unusual punishment to me.

[freethefly 6]

Thanks, again, to everyone for great input. I agree to what most are saying. I'm still, however, find it to be unjustifiable the level of wealth that the leaders of the mega-church enjoy, all the while asking the people most likely to be their followers, the poor, to give more. The lifestyles of these people are beyond extravagant.
This is a good read:
http://www.inplainsite.org/html/tele-evangelist_lifestyles.html

In no way do I wish harm on the honest church, but wish to see an end to the mega-church that take so much and give very little back. Shame that more ministries are not like that of Reverend Larry Rice.

"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young

[rehmwa 2]

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I'm still, however, find it to be unjustifiable the level of wealth that the leaders of the mega-church enjoy, all the while asking the people most likely to be their followers, the poor, to give more.

are we still talking about churches? or can we just right now extend your comment to big corporations and the Democrats (since the republicans that fit the bill are already counted in the churchy portion, no need to call it twice).

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[kallend 2,148]

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Thanks, again, to everyone for great input. I agree to what most are saying. I'm still, however, find it to be unjustifiable the level of wealth that the leaders of the mega-church enjoy, all the while asking the people most likely to be their followers, the poor, to give more. The lifestyles of these people are beyond extravagant.
This is a good read:
http://www.inplainsite.org/html/tele-evangelist_lifestyles.html

.

"A fool and his money are soon parted".

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Southern_Man 0]

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The Supreme Court has ruled poll taxes illegal because they are an infringement on the constitutional right to vote. Likewise, a tax on religion is an infringment on the constitutional right to freedom of religion.

Are you okay with charging citizens $20 for their voter registration card?

Nobody is talking about taxing people to go to church. That would be an infringement.

"What if there were no hypothetical questions?"

[kallend 2,148]

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Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

What part of that sentance states that churches should be exempt from taxes? If they should be, why should newspapers, concern halls, or lawyers be taxed?

The Supreme Court has ruled poll taxes illegal because they are an infringement on the constitutional right to vote. Likewise, a tax on religion is an infringment on the constitutional right to freedom of religion.

Are you okay with charging citizens $20 for their voter registration card?

I'm good with charging mega-church leaders property taxes on their $multi-million homes, even if the home is ostensibly owned by the church.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kallend 2,148]

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Hundreds of thousands of dollars of emergency funds were used to upgrade (?) the jail. What did they do? they painted the cells pink.

Sounds like cruel and unusual punishment to me.

Actually, it's recognized that the color pink has a calming effect.

[Southern_Man 0]

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I'm good with charging mega-church leaders property taxes on their $multi-million homes, even if the home is ostensibly owned by the church.

I'm not sure why manses should be free from property tax anyway. I am okay w/ taxing them.

Just information, if a pastor buys his own house w/ a housing instead of living in a manse, that home is subject to property tax (as it should be).

"What if there were no hypothetical questions?"

[mnealtx 0]

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Hundreds of thousands of dollars of emergency funds were used to upgrade (?) the jail. What did they do? they painted the cells pink.

Sounds like cruel and unusual punishment to me.

Actually, it's recognized that the color pink has a calming effect.

Seems like you're agreeing with me.

[Coreece 190]

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I haven't heard anyone in this thread propose a special "church tax!"

You're right, so far you're the only person that brought it up...

Actually you did in your previous post #23, on which I was commenting.

No I didn't...

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Perhaps you'd like to respond to the meat of my post?

If only I thought it was that important. Perhaps you'd like to learn how to read and find a hillbilly bass-fishing forum so you could leave the skydivers alone. (nice avatar)

Geeze, what a grouch...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ed0Hg7stjHE

Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are...

[kallend 2,148]

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Hundreds of thousands of dollars of emergency funds were used to upgrade (?) the jail. What did they do? they painted the cells pink.

Sounds like cruel and unusual punishment to me.

Actually, it's recognized that the color pink has a calming effect.

Seems like you're agreeing with me.

That painting the cells pink is cruel and unusual punishment?

Nope, sure aren't.

Well, I'll guess I'll have to believe you because I'VE NOT been locked in one

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.