quade 4 #51 August 11, 2011 QuoteHard to see a parallel to today in America, where the Constitution prevents a church from being in charge. The revisionist history of some, coupled with the ignorance and wishes of others . . . I dunno man . . . if you think about it, just about anything is possible. All it takes is to have a big enough and persuaded enough crowd wanting to vote in a particular direction. People panic in fear of the Second Amendment going down, but give a free pass to the concept of the First? I dunno. Seems to me the First going down is a hell of a lot scarier proposition.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,135 #52 August 11, 2011 QuoteQuoteGrasp for straws much? His intentions were quite clear. I'm sure you think they were...lemme know when he actually acts on them. If I recall correctly (which I do) you were in denial that Sarah Palin supported a Constitutional amendment to outlaw abortion for rape victims, despite her clearly stating on TV that she did. You used exactly the same weaseling tactic then.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #53 August 11, 2011 QuoteQuoteHard to see a parallel to today in America, where the Constitution prevents a church from being in charge. The revisionist history of some, coupled with the ignorance and wishes of others . . . I dunno man . . . if you think about it, just about anything is possible. All it takes is to have a big enough and persuaded enough crowd wanting to vote in a particular direction. People panic in fear of the Second Amendment going down, but give a free pass to the concept of the First? I dunno. Seems to me the First going down is a hell of a lot scarier proposition. Good thing there's no evidence that the First *is* going down - as stated upthread, in post #12, there's been plenty of opportunity for it to happen, if it was going to.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,135 #54 August 11, 2011 Quote who? You must be thinking of Rick Parry, the write-in Super PAC candidate ... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skyrad 0 #55 August 11, 2011 Beware false prophets. Bonkers and slightly worrying.When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #56 August 11, 2011 QuoteQuoteQuoteHard to see a parallel to today in America, where the Constitution prevents a church from being in charge. The revisionist history of some, coupled with the ignorance and wishes of others . . . I dunno man . . . if you think about it, just about anything is possible. All it takes is to have a big enough and persuaded enough crowd wanting to vote in a particular direction. People panic in fear of the Second Amendment going down, but give a free pass to the concept of the First? I dunno. Seems to me the First going down is a hell of a lot scarier proposition. Good thing there's no evidence that the First *is* going down - as stated upthread, in post #12, there's been plenty of opportunity for it to happen, if it was going to. Well, I don't suppose it's your area of interest, but if you follow the way the world is going, it becomes easier to see it as a possibility every day. When Fahrenheit 451 was written the concept of a government making books illegal was only vaguely thinkable. We'd seen book burnings in Germany and elsewhere, but few considered it to be an actual possibility. That said, today, libraries are closing and eBooks now outsell physical copies. Further, the electronic copies available on Kindle and whatnot can be changed post-purchase or recalled altogether as if the books never existed. In fact, this has already happened, ironically, with a non-authorized version of Fahrenheit 451! Rather than the "government" taking control over the media, the users have collectively decided to hand control over to companies. Although in some cases the distinction gets smaller and smaller each day. Now, consider some point in the future where all media is published electronically and lives on "the cloud." One day a fanatic gets elected, his corporate buddies decide to curry favor with him and some revisions get put in place. As time goes by more and more revisions take place and down through the memory hole of 1984 go all the ideas supporting the First Amendment (or any other you care to talk about). I swear to you, it's all possible and it gets easier every day. Guns and the Second won't save your descendants in that possible world, because they will believe whatever the corporatocracy has fed them in the media, schools, Church of Latter Day Reagan, Corpratepaedia . . . And religion is especially good at getting people to fall in line. Always has been and always will be. Which is specifically why it was included in the First and the "wall of separation" must continue to exist unless we go down that nightmare outlined above. Rick Perry is dangerous simply because some of his followers believe, as he certainly has indicated himself by throwing this little prayer meeting, government should be ruled according to religious rules rather than the US Constitution.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #57 August 11, 2011 QuoteRick Perry is dangerous simply because some of his followers believe, as he certainly has indicated himself by throwing this little prayer meeting, government should be ruled according to religious rules rather than the US Constitution. Twaddle - show me where he's said that religion should run gov't. You're espousing what you WANT to believe about him, not what there is evidence of him believing.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #58 August 11, 2011 Quote Quote Rick Perry is dangerous simply because some of his followers believe, as he certainly has indicated himself by throwing this little prayer meeting, government should be ruled according to religious rules rather than the US Constitution. Twaddle - show me where he's said that religion should run gov't. You're espousing what you WANT to believe about him, not what there is evidence of him believing. Well, no evidence unless you count the 30,000 people he got to show up to pray for government. I'm fairly certain that if a Muslim did that, people would be rioting in the streets.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #59 August 11, 2011 Quote Well, no evidence unless you count the 30,000 people he got to show up to pray for government. Got any transcripts to prove your point? You know, the "other side of the story" that you keep talking about when it suits you? Explain something to me, Paul - why is it that 20 years of attendance at Wright's church was no big deal for Obama, but a prayer meeting is such a big deal when it's a Republican?Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #60 August 11, 2011 QuoteQuoteHard to see a parallel to today in America, where the Constitution prevents a church from being in charge. The revisionist history of some, coupled with the ignorance and wishes of others . . . I dunno man . . . if you think about it, just about anything is possible. All it takes is to have a big enough and persuaded enough crowd wanting to vote in a particular direction. People panic in fear of the Second Amendment going down, but give a free pass to the concept of the First? I dunno. Seems to me the First going down is a hell of a lot scarier proposition. It takes one step for a 13th-18th Century King and/or Pope to start executing people for heresy. It takes 3 or 4 dramatic steps here for the same to occur. The hardest step is taking away 300M guns from the people. The second hardest is convincing the people that it should even be tried. Only slightly easier is getting them to agree to mandate Christianity in our citzens' lives. And you need to start by electing an evangelical in the first place. It's very easy for a government that has taken away gun ownership to tell people what they can say and believe. The opposite isn't so. You can't effectively take away rights to speech, assembly, and religion from armed people. There are more People than Government. It is actually possible to support both the 1st and 2nd amendments. So many people here insist on picking one or the other, but that's a personal failing, not a requirement. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterblaster72 0 #61 August 11, 2011 QuoteQuoteI repeat my question: who the fuck is Rick Perry? When that's the first question, the second is not "OMG, what if he gets elected President." Not gonna happen. He is the governor of Texas. A snowball has a better chance of surviving in a blast furnace, than Perry does being elected President. Never underestimate the stupidity of Americans when it comes to electing public servants. I don't put it beyond the American populace to elect a moron like Perry, Palin or Bachmann as President. Be humble, ask questions, listen, learn, follow the golden rule, talk when necessary, and know when to shut the fuck up. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #62 August 11, 2011 QuoteExplain something to me, Paul - why is it that 20 years of attendance at Wright's church was no big deal for Obama, but a prayer meeting is such a big deal when it's a Republican? If I watch a movie, that doesn't mean I share all of the views in the movie. If I listen to a rock-n-roll song, that doesn't mean I agree with everything being said in it. If I listen to a pastor, that doesn't mean I agree with everything he's preaching. If I write a movie, song or sermon, then yes, it does mean those are my words. Rick Perry gathered and led 30,000 (some say upwards of 44,000, but I'm being lenient), in a prayer meeting for government. It wasn't some generic non-denominational thing honoring all religious beliefs. It was very specific. THAT is dangerous.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #63 August 11, 2011 QuoteQuoteQuoteI repeat my question: who the fuck is Rick Perry? When that's the first question, the second is not "OMG, what if he gets elected President." Not gonna happen. He is the governor of Texas. A snowball has a better chance of surviving in a blast furnace, than Perry does being elected President. Never underestimate the stupidity of Americans when it comes to electing public servants. I don't put it beyond the American populace to elect a moron like Perry, Palin or Bachmann as President. Or Obama.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #64 August 11, 2011 QuoteQuoteExplain something to me, Paul - why is it that 20 years of attendance at Wright's church was no big deal for Obama, but a prayer meeting is such a big deal when it's a Republican? If I watch a movie, that doesn't mean I share all of the views in the movie. If I listen to a rock-n-roll song, that doesn't mean I agree with everything being said in it. If I listen to a pastor, that doesn't mean I agree with everything he's preaching. And yet, you believe that Perry agrees with everything that those two pastors supposedly stand for regarding overthrow of the government. QuoteIf I write a movie, song or sermon, then yes, it does mean those are my words. Rick Perry gathered and lead 30,000 (some say upwards of 44,000, but I'm being lenient), in a prayer meeting for government. It wasn't some generic non-denominational thing honoring all religious beliefs. It was very specific. THAT is dangerous. Well, let's see what those specifics were, shall we? Here's Perry's remarks: “I’m so humbled to be in the midst of men and women who have answered the call to prayer and fast for our nation. I want to especially thank brother C.L. Jackson who’s standing here with me and a great man of God, and Alice Patterson. They both have been with me and praying with me and supported me through the years. And pastor, we stood in your church one day and we got on our knees in a moment of powerful prayer and I just thank you both for being here with me. “Like all of you, I love this country deeply, thank you all for being here. Indeed the only thing that you love more is the living Christ. But our hearts do break for those who suffer, those afflicted by the loss of loved ones, the pain of addiction, the strife that they may find at home, those who have lost jobs, who have lost their homes, people who have lost hope. Those that cannot see the light in the midst of all the darkness. Because we know a loving God, we know the greatest darkness comes just before the morning. We know, we know a loving God and we know the darkness that he takes care of and wipes away. We know that there is hope for those who trust in him who fills our hearts with joy and gives us life. This God who knows our imperfections, he didn’t leave us to live a life in our sins, but paid the price for them. He who knew no sin, he gave his life in ransom for me. This loving, this loving and perfect God is also a personal God. He desires not a show of religion, but a deep connection with our innermost being. “His agenda is not a political agenda, his agenda is a salvation agenda. Brother C.L., you and I have had this conversation. He’s a wise, wise God, and he’s wise enough to not be affiliated with any political party, or for that matter, he’s wise enough to not be affiliated with any man-made institutions. He’s calling all Americans, of all walks of life, to seek him, to return to him, to experience his love and his grace and his acceptance, experience a fulfilled life regardless of the circumstances. I want you to join with me as I share his word with you:” (Perry then read from three Bible passages: Joel 2:12-17; Isaiah 40: 28-31; Ephesians 3:14-21.) And here's the prayer: “As I finish I want to ask each of you to bow your head in prayer, or go to that position of prayer, and pray with us. Lord, you are the source of every good thing, you are our only hope. And we stand before you today in awe of your power, and in gratitude for your blessings, in humility for our sins. Father our heart breaks for America. We see discord at home. We see fear in the marketplace. We see angers in the halls of government. And as a nation we have forgotten who made us, who protects us, who blesses us, and for that we cry out for your forgiveness. We pray for our nation’s leaders, Lord, for parents, for pastors, for the generals, for governors, that you would inspire them in these difficult times. Father we pray for our president, that you would impart your wisdom upon him, that you would guard his family. We pray for our military and the families who love them. Father especially, for those special operators who lost their life yesterday in defending our freedoms. You call us to repent, Lord, and this day is our response. We give it all to you. For thine is the kingdom and the power and the glory, forever. Amen. And amen.” Methinks the moderator lets his bias overrule his intellect.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #65 August 11, 2011 Quote Well, I don't suppose it's your area of interest, but if you follow the way the world is going, it becomes easier to see it as a possibility every day. When Fahrenheit 451 was written the concept of a government making books illegal was only vaguely thinkable. We'd seen book burnings in Germany and elsewhere, but few considered it to be an actual possibility. That said, today, libraries are closing and eBooks now outsell physical copies. Further, the electronic copies available on Kindle and whatnot can be changed post-purchase or recalled altogether as if the books never existed. In fact, this has already happened, ironically, with a non-authorized version of Fahrenheit 451! Fahrenheit 451 does have a lot of unauthorized pdfs out there, but that is a copywrite issue. And specifically to kindle, there are DRM issues. But you can stick any PDF on a kindle on your own and Amazon or the Feds can't do anything about it. That applies to your purchased books as well if you turn off the wireless connection. In the big picture, e-books will preserve literature, not make it possible for government to destroy it. The internet has already proven this - knowledge is disseminated far faster than it was ever possible, even with substantial effort by government censors (See China, Iran, etc) to try to stop it. One a book exists in an electronic form without DRM, it exists forever. Project Gutenburg started this effort long ago, but could only focus on the classics that are no longer under copywrite. That said, DRM schemes don't last long before they're broken, as the MPAA has repeatedly found. A 7" 1lb Kindle can hold a couple thousand books, and go a month in between charges. And it only represents the 3rd generation in e-books. --- In sum, you paint a good story for a modern day rewrite of F451, but it's science fiction. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,096 #66 August 11, 2011 >At least one gop candidate has said that is exactly what he wants Can you imagine the screaming and wailing that would ensue if a Muslim had said that? Channman would be talking about arresting US Muslims on sight. JohnRich would be talking about the woman-hating gun-grabbing Sharia-law-wanting evil Muslims and how the liberals all want them to cut people's hands off. Bill O'Reilly would be saying things like "maybe Brevik had the right idea." Michele Bachmann would be advocating prison camps for them. The Internet would be nearly paralyzed by all the conservative Islamophobia that would come spewing forth. But since it's a conservative christian they defend it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #67 August 11, 2011 Quote>At least one gop candidate has said that is exactly what he wants Can you imagine the screaming and wailing that would ensue if a Muslim had said that? Channman would be talking about arresting US Muslims on sight. JohnRich would be talking about the woman-hating gun-grabbing Sharia-law-wanting evil Muslims and how the liberals all want them to cut people's hands off. Bill O'Reilly would be saying things like "maybe Brevik had the right idea." Michele Bachmann would be advocating prison camps for them. The Internet would be nearly paralyzed by all the conservative Islamophobia that would come spewing forth. But since it's a conservative christian they defend it. But since it's a liberal commenting on it, 'almost wish' means 'absolutely would'.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tkhayes 348 #68 August 11, 2011 This country is determined (and I believe it will) to swing WILDLY to the extreme right and it will only realize its misfortune when we start (or maybe finish) another McCarthy era (or worse, a Hitler era) where we take away the most basic of personal freedoms in support of 'God' and the 'freedoms' that we pretend to uphold. Women are likely to be the most hurt. they will put them back into the kitchen, keep them barefoot and pregnant, and if you are not a Christian, expect to be put on trial for whatever heresy you may have committed. After all we are a "CHRISTIAN" nation, so anyone else, must be evil. I believe this will happen in the next 10 years. I also believe that we will eventually wake up and smell the coffee. I pity the poor bastards caught in the crossfire. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #69 August 11, 2011 When you project you go all out, don't you?Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #70 August 11, 2011 Getting a bit off the track, but I wanted to respond to this final bit, then let it go. QuoteFahrenheit 451 does have a lot of unauthorized pdfs out there, but that is a copywrite issue. And specifically to kindle, there are DRM issues. But you can stick any PDF on a kindle on your own and Amazon or the Feds can't do anything about it. That applies to your purchased books as well if you turn off the wireless connection. In the big picture, e-books will preserve literature, not make it possible for government to destroy it. The internet has already proven this - knowledge is disseminated far faster than it was ever possible, even with substantial effort by government censors (See China, Iran, etc) to try to stop it. One a book exists in an electronic form without DRM, it exists forever. Project Gutenburg started this effort long ago, but could only focus on the classics that are no longer under copywrite. That said, DRM schemes don't last long before they're broken, as the MPAA has repeatedly found. A 7" 1lb Kindle can hold a couple thousand books, and go a month in between charges. And it only represents the 3rd generation in e-books. Oh dear, no. The most important thing to understand is no media is permanent; not even those written on stone, but especially those invented in the last 100 years. As technology progresses, so does the media and in doing so, some materials are inevitably left behind. Let me ask you this, how many Edison recording cylinders do you have or 78 records? If you have any at all, can you play them? How about this. How many projects do you think are sitting in the computer next to me that were created using Final Cut Pro that can no longer be opened in Final Cut X? Data gets wiped away. It vanishes because the methods being used no longer support them. I have a very lovely collection of DVDs at home. In 20 years, do you think any of them will be viewable at all? This is why print is important. It has zero to do with DRM. It has to do with the fact that data vanishes all on it's own. Print, while not immutable, does tend to still be readable by the human eyes. You can go to the National Archives and actually LOOK at the US Constitution and read the words as they were written more than 200 years ago.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
grimmie 186 #71 August 12, 2011 A few years ago I said it's a good thing Bill Gates and Ted Turner don't team up for a mega lie. CNN could show Martians attacking and the Internet would back it! Of course I should add Zuckerberg to the group now. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DanJohnson 0 #72 August 12, 2011 ***Good thing there's no evidence that the First *is* going down Quote Mnealtx you just don't get out much do you? Are you at all familiar with these "free speech zones" set up during every political primary ? Are you at all familiar with these "Free speach zones" set up during every visit by the president to keep those of differing opinions away from the president and the media? I believe that all of the USA is a "Free Speech Zone". Do you agree? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites grimmie 186 #73 August 12, 2011 Perry should do a bit less praying and a bit more governing. http://endoftheamericandream.com/archives/14-reasons-why-rick-perry-would-be-a-really-really-bad-president Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites masterblaster72 0 #74 August 12, 2011 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteI repeat my question: who the fuck is Rick Perry? When that's the first question, the second is not "OMG, what if he gets elected President." Not gonna happen. He is the governor of Texas. A snowball has a better chance of surviving in a blast furnace, than Perry does being elected President. Never underestimate the stupidity of Americans when it comes to electing public servants. I don't put it beyond the American populace to elect a moron like Perry, Palin or Bachmann as President. Or Obama. Okay, I'll try to match your predictability: Or your ex-governor GW Bush. Be humble, ask questions, listen, learn, follow the golden rule, talk when necessary, and know when to shut the fuck up. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mnealtx 0 #75 August 12, 2011 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteI repeat my question: who the fuck is Rick Perry? When that's the first question, the second is not "OMG, what if he gets elected President." Not gonna happen. He is the governor of Texas. A snowball has a better chance of surviving in a blast furnace, than Perry does being elected President. Never underestimate the stupidity of Americans when it comes to electing public servants. I don't put it beyond the American populace to elect a moron like Perry, Palin or Bachmann as President. Or Obama. Okay, I'll try to match your predictability: Or your ex-governor GW Bush. Sorry, I was just matching yours.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 Next Page 3 of 7 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
grimmie 186 #73 August 12, 2011 Perry should do a bit less praying and a bit more governing. http://endoftheamericandream.com/archives/14-reasons-why-rick-perry-would-be-a-really-really-bad-president Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterblaster72 0 #74 August 12, 2011 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteI repeat my question: who the fuck is Rick Perry? When that's the first question, the second is not "OMG, what if he gets elected President." Not gonna happen. He is the governor of Texas. A snowball has a better chance of surviving in a blast furnace, than Perry does being elected President. Never underestimate the stupidity of Americans when it comes to electing public servants. I don't put it beyond the American populace to elect a moron like Perry, Palin or Bachmann as President. Or Obama. Okay, I'll try to match your predictability: Or your ex-governor GW Bush. Be humble, ask questions, listen, learn, follow the golden rule, talk when necessary, and know when to shut the fuck up. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #75 August 12, 2011 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteI repeat my question: who the fuck is Rick Perry? When that's the first question, the second is not "OMG, what if he gets elected President." Not gonna happen. He is the governor of Texas. A snowball has a better chance of surviving in a blast furnace, than Perry does being elected President. Never underestimate the stupidity of Americans when it comes to electing public servants. I don't put it beyond the American populace to elect a moron like Perry, Palin or Bachmann as President. Or Obama. Okay, I'll try to match your predictability: Or your ex-governor GW Bush. Sorry, I was just matching yours.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
