Awesome things "god" does.

[Meso 38]

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The wise and mature person seeks to understand first and not ridicule. You'd think that would be some sort of requirement for a moderator, you know, one who's supposed to "moderate."

By understand, you mean seeks to think exactly the same way as you. I've lived long enough, both as a Christian and an Atheist to have spent many years trying to 'understand'. That sounds like a way of just keeping people from scrutinizing something. Maybe politicians should try use that line "If you don't agree with my plan then you must not understand it, stop mocking it and spend more time examining why I`m right"


Why would not having an opinion be a requirement for a moderator? Moderating a forum means you take unbiased action when reprimanding or issuing punishment. It does not have anything to do with taking a neutral stance on issues discussed. I will express my opinions, but you won't see me dishing out personal attacks of breaking site rules.

[jaybird18c 24]

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So let's take an example. A child born with a horrible disease, lives a short and painful life, dies early - say at age 9. What crime did he commit? Against God or anybody? And how is that at all like you committing murder and complaining about your sentence? Gotta be the worst analogy ever.

God sees the heart...not just your actions.

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“You have heard that the ancients were told, ‘YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT MURDER’ and ‘Whoever commits murder shall be [l]liable to the court.’ But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court; and whoever says to his brother, ‘You good-for-nothing,’ shall be [o]guilty before [p]the supreme court; and whoever says, ‘You fool,’ shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell. Therefore if you are presenting your offering at the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you, leave your offering there before the altar and go; first be reconciled to your brother, and then come and present your offering. Make friends quickly with your opponent at law while you are with him on the way, so that your opponent may not hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the officer, and you be thrown into prison. Truly I say to you, you will not come out of there until you have paid up the last cent." - Matthew 5:21-26

The world is an imperfect place now and, I would argue, is getting worse and worse. The effects of sin reach all whether they are believers, unbelievers, or even those who aren’t old enough to know either way.

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”Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned— for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.” – Romans 5:12-13

But God doesn’t leave us there. That’s the “good news.”

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”But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many. The gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment arose from one transgression resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift arose from many transgressions resulting in justification. For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.” – Romans 5:15-17

Now, it is not made clear exactly what happens to the infants/children who die before knowledge and accountability. However, there is good reason to believe that somehow, by God’s grace, they are received. Not all (e.g. Pharaoh’s son), however, I’d say most. It seems to indicate that the children of believers (e.g. those covenantal children) are somehow saved by grace. But, as for the justification, it all goes back to the sin of one man (the first Adam)…which was imputed to the rest of humanity….which was later accounted for by a perfect sacrifice (the second Adam; Jesus)….satisfying God’s justice on our behalf…so that “in Him” we can now be seen as righteous in the eyes of God…and God can be both “just” and also the justifier of wicked men.

[winsor 236]

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No but you see, there's obviously a reason for that! It's just that you can't comprehend the almighty and powerful workings of God. He is obviously doing it to prove a point that is more important or has his reason. And who are you to try suggest otherwise!

And if that fails, you can always blame Satan.



I mean come'on, duh!

The wise and mature person seeks to understand first and not ridicule. You'd think that would be some sort of requirement for a moderator, you know, one who's supposed to "moderate."

You appear to overlook the fact that full and complete understanding reveals the attempted logic to be be complete and utter nonsense.

If it makes you happy, great - happiness is good.

Nonsense is still nonsense, and is by nature ridiculous. Pretending to admire the ridiculous is dishonest. Not knowing the difference between the admirable and the ridiculous is hardly a virtue.


BSBD,

Winsor

[jaybird18c 24]

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By understand, you mean seeks to think exactly the same way as you. I've lived long enough, both as a Christian and an Atheist to have spent many years trying to 'understand'. That sounds like a way of just keeping people from scrutinizing something. Maybe politicians should try use that line "If you don't agree with my plan then you must not understand it, stop mocking it and spend more time examining why I`m right"

One can scrutinize, examine, analyze without being insulting and ridiculing those you don’t agree with. I do not expect you to think like I do or believe what I’m saying in this regard. It’s ok to disagree. I’m putting out a point of view. You should do the same. I understand where you’re coming from as an atheist. I now disagree with it but again that’s ok.

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Why would not having an opinion be a requirement for a moderator? Moderating a forum means you take unbiased action when reprimanding or issuing punishment. It does not have anything to do with taking a neutral stance on issues discussed. I will express my opinions, but you won't see me dishing out personal attacks of breaking site rules.

Nothing wrong with an opinion. But being rude and demeaning is not productive.

[Shotgun 1]

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You know, I try to live a good life, try to help others when I can, try not to hurt others. If there turns out to be some vicious god who created me with a brain that isn't wired to believe in him, who then punishes me eternally for not believing in him, then so be it. But I see no reason to believe that that is the case, so I'm not worried about it.

Why is God considered "vicious" in exacting due punishment for the crimes against His nature that we have committed?

Here, I bolded the part that explains why I called it vicious.

[devildog 0]

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That's my point. At one time the ENTIRE CHURCH insisted on reading into the text something that (apparently) isn't there.

This is where you are getting hung up. The entire church never, ever insisted as a whole on any such thing.

You stop breathing for a few minutes and everyone jumps to conclusions.

[billvon 3,095]

>The entire church never, ever insisted as a whole on any such thing.

The Pope, representing the entire Catholic Church, did indeed just that. Pope Clement VIII declared Bruno guilty and recommended the death penalty, which the court (composed exclusively of Inquisition Cardinals) carried out. He was burned at the stake as a heretic.

[jaybird18c 24]

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>The entire church never, ever insisted as a whole on any such thing.

The Pope, representing the entire Catholic Church, did indeed just that. Pope Clement VIII declared Bruno guilty and recommended the death penalty, which the court (composed exclusively of Inquisition Cardinals) carried out. He was burned at the stake as a heretic.

Ever heard of the Protestant Reformation? The Catholic Church wasn't always apostate. However, there came a time when the Roman Catholics, needed to be called back to Biblical truth. That's not to say there aren't believers in the Catholic Church. There most certainly are. God can and does save some from any falsehood. However, anyone (e.g. the Pope & Papacy) who believes in the works righteousness of Roman Catholicism does not represent the catholic body of believers who submit to sola fide & sola scriptura.

[jaybird18c 24]

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You know, I try to live a good life, try to help others when I can, try not to hurt others. If there turns out to be some vicious god who created me with a brain that isn't wired to believe in him, who then punishes me eternally for not believing in him, then so be it. But I see no reason to believe that that is the case, so I'm not worried about it.

Why is God considered "vicious" in exacting due punishment for the crimes against His nature that we have committed?

Here, I bolded the part that explains why I called it vicious.

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"For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools, and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures." - Romans 1:18-23

[Heatmiser 0]

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You know, I try to live a good life, try to help others when I can, try not to hurt others. If there turns out to be some vicious god who created me with a brain that isn't wired to believe in him, who then punishes me eternally for not believing in him, then so be it. But I see no reason to believe that that is the case, so I'm not worried about it.

Why is God considered "vicious" in exacting due punishment for the crimes against His nature that we have committed?

Here, I bolded the part that explains why I called it vicious.

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"For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools, and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures." - Romans 1:18-23

This is the "Deep down, you really know there is a god", argument. The problem is, you are using a line in a letter written almost 2 millenia ago as proof that we are "hard-wired" with a knowledge of God. This is both highly disputable, and totally unprovable. Where you look at nature, your children, happenings in the world and attribute them to the existence and love of God, others see the same things in their lives ,and don't. Doesn't sound like "God" is so evident to me.

What you say is reflective of your knowledge...HOW ya say it is reflective of your experience. Airtwardo

Someone's going to be spanked! Hopefully, it will be me. Skymama

[Shotgun 1]

Hmm.... Yes, it makes perfect sense to use Bible quotes to try to prove something to an atheist.

[normiss 883]

[Coreece 190]

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Hmm.... Yes, it makes perfect sense to use Bible quotes to try to prove something to an atheist.

Sweetie, you know I love you, you do...I'd marry you if I could...but we don't have to prove anything to atheists. You guys simply give us a platform to proagate our message to those who might believe. This isn't about you...

Perhaps one day you will be granted the faith to believe in this "foolishness" like me - someone who was also found "somewhere in the middle of the desert..."

Till then, just consider this a mechanism to obtain understanding.

....Now's ze time on shprockets ven we donce!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QHZR9SA5pOg

Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are...

[jaybird18c 24]

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Hmm.... Yes, it makes perfect sense to use Bible quotes to try to prove something to an atheist.

One's disbelief in something has no effect on its reality. Either it is real or it is not regardless of what one believes. You may not believe what the Bible says, however, either you or God is lying in this regard and the Bible says that God cannot lie. It would be against his very nature. So where does that leave us?

[Shotgun 1]

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Hmm.... Yes, it makes perfect sense to use Bible quotes to try to prove something to an atheist.

One's disbelief in something has no effect on its reality. Either it is real or it is not regardless of what one believes. You may not believe what the Bible says, however, either you or God is lying in this regard and the Bible says that God cannot lie. It would be against his very nature. So where does that leave us?

That leaves us right where we started. Me not believing that the Bible is the "word of God" (seeing as I don't believe in a god), and you believing the opposite. Probably not much point in continuing the discussion.

[jaybird18c 24]

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Hmm.... Yes, it makes perfect sense to use Bible quotes to try to prove something to an atheist.

One's disbelief in something has no effect on its reality. Either it is real or it is not regardless of what one believes. You may not believe what the Bible says, however, either you or God is lying in this regard and the Bible says that God cannot lie. It would be against his very nature. So where does that leave us?

That leaves us right where we started. Me not believing that the Bible is the "word of God" (seeing as I don't believe in a god), and you believing the opposite. Probably not much point in continuing the discussion.

I agree.

[winsor 236]

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Hmm.... Yes, it makes perfect sense to use Bible quotes to try to prove something to an atheist.

One's disbelief in something has no effect on its reality. Either it is real or it is not regardless of what one believes. You may not believe what the Bible says, however, either you or God is lying in this regard and the Bible says that God cannot lie. It would be against his very nature. So where does that leave us?

You have just demonstrated the difference between logical and pathological - though I am quite sure you do not know it.

If you could make your point without resorting to half a dozen fallacies of relevance, it might be worth addressing. As it is, your stance is meaningless.


BSBD,

Winsor

[jaybird18c 24]

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For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness

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Where you look at nature, your children, happenings in the world and attribute them to the existence and love of God, others see the same things in their lives ,and don't. Doesn't sound like "God" is so evident to me.

Of course you don't. Because if you did, you would be accountable to his laws. Instead, you want to live your life the way you want to live it according to your own rules. You want what you want when you want it. That's human nature and it keeps us from seeing beyond our own selfish desires. One will continue down that path (which ends in death) unless his nature is changed. That saving faith (faith which leads to obedience) is a gift (cannot be earned) and must originate from God.

***"I had motive for not wanting the world to have a meaning; consequently assumed that it had none, and was able without any difficulty to find satisfying reasons for this assumption. The philosopher who finds no meaning in the world is not concerned exclusively with a problem in pure metaphysics, he is also concerned to prove that there is no valid reason why he personally should not do as he wants to do, or why his friends should not seize political power and govern in the way that they find most advantageous to themselves. … For myself, the philosophy of meaninglessness was essentially an instrument of liberation, sexual and political." - Thomas Huxley

[jakee 1,583]

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Because if you did, you would be accountable to his laws.

No. Because I have never seen any reason to believe any god actually exists.

Back when you did your little rebellion thing you may well have been lying to yourself and it may well have been because you wanted to escape your church's morality. Thing is though, you cannot assume that transfers across to people who actually are atheists. It doesn't.

You said just now that you understand where atheists are coming from. You really don't, even though it's been explained to you ad nauseum.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[kallend 2,131]

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Hmm.... Yes, it makes perfect sense to use Bible quotes to try to prove something to an atheist.

One's disbelief in something has no effect on its reality. Either it is real or it is not regardless of what one believes. You may not believe what the Bible says, however, either you or God is lying in this regard and the Bible says that God cannot lie. It would be against his very nature. So where does that leave us?

That leaves us right where we started. Me not believing that the Bible is the "word of God" (seeing as I don't believe in a god), and you believing the opposite. Probably not much point in continuing the discussion.

You don't have an invisible psychotic bipolar sadistic egomaniacal friend like he does? For shame.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Heatmiser 0]

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For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness

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Where you look at nature, your children, happenings in the world and attribute them to the existence and love of God, others see the same things in their lives ,and don't. Doesn't sound like "God" is so evident to me.

Of course you don't. Because if you did, you would be accountable to his laws. Instead, you want to live your life the way you want to live it according to your own rules. You want what you want when you want it. That's human nature and it keeps us from seeing beyond our own selfish desires. One will continue down that path (which ends in death) unless his nature is changed. That saving faith (faith which leads to obedience) is a gift (cannot be earned) and must originate from God.

***"I had motive for not wanting the world to have a meaning; consequently assumed that it had none, and was able without any difficulty to find satisfying reasons for this assumption. The philosopher who finds no meaning in the world is not concerned exclusively with a problem in pure metaphysics, he is also concerned to prove that there is no valid reason why he personally should not do as he wants to do, or why his friends should not seize political power and govern in the way that they find most advantageous to themselves. … For myself, the philosophy of meaninglessness was essentially an instrument of liberation, sexual and political." - Thomas Huxley

Wait...what? You just contradicted yourself. You quote a bible passage, which I respond to, as saying that the evidence of God is easily evident to all people, then you say that that isn't the case, because people are selfish. That "saving faith" you are speaking of seems to be of little use to society as a whole. Look at the fruit of it...murder, slavery, elitism, ignorance, and judgement. "Saving faith" in all its different guises (Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, etc...) has had just as much history (and yes, recent history) producing the fruit above as love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, and faithfulness.

What you say is reflective of your knowledge...HOW ya say it is reflective of your experience. Airtwardo

Someone's going to be spanked! Hopefully, it will be me. Skymama

[jaybird18c 24]

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Wait...what? You just contradicted yourself. You quote a bible passage, which I respond to, as saying that the evidence of God is easily evident to all people, then you say that that isn't the case, because people are selfish. That "saving faith" you are speaking of seems to be of little use to society as a whole. Look at the fruit of it...murder, slavery, elitism, ignorance, and judgement. "Saving faith" in all its different guises (Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, etc...) has had just as much history (and yes, recent history) producing the fruit above as love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, and faithfulness.

No contradiction. Just making reference to two different things. God has revealed Himself in different ways. One way is through “general revelation” which includes the creation and your conscience (e.g. the knowledge of God which has been made apparent through all that has been made). The other is “special revelation” which includes scripture (e.g. acts of Jesus, teachings of the Prophets, the Apostles, works of the Holy Spirit, etc.) Belief in God is established “generally” by what has been made (including us) and our conscience bearing witness to right and wrong (appeal to a moral standard; I would argue moral absolutes). However, that simple mental ascent to the truth cannot save you. Only through the “special revelation” of scripture can we know and understand what is required of us to have a right standing before God. That “right standing” before God can only come through faith in Jesus Christ which can only come from God. It’s not simply that a non-believer can’t come to “saving faith” in Christ apart from intervention by God. It’s that he won’t come because of his radically fallen nature due to the fall.

[Southern_Man 0]

You sure know your dogmatics. Have to say you aren't much for apologetics, though.

"What if there were no hypothetical questions?"

[DanJohnson 0]

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Wait...what? You just contradicted yourself. You quote a bible passage, which I respond to, as saying that the evidence of God is easily evident to all people, then you say that that isn't the case, because people are selfish. That "saving faith" you are speaking of seems to be of little use to society as a whole. Look at the fruit of it...murder, slavery, elitism, ignorance, and judgement. "Saving faith" in all its different guises (Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, etc...) has had just as much history (and yes, recent history) producing the fruit above as love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, and faithfulness.

No contradiction. Just making reference to two different things. God has revealed Himself in different ways. One way is through “general revelation” which includes the creation and your conscience (e.g. the knowledge of God which has been made apparent through all that has been made). The other is “special revelation” which includes scripture (e.g. acts of Jesus, teachings of the Prophets, the Apostles, works of the Holy Spirit, etc.) Belief in God is established “generally” by what has been made (including us) and our conscience bearing witness to right and wrong (appeal to a moral standard; I would argue moral absolutes). However, that simple mental ascent to the truth cannot save you. Only through the “special revelation” of scripture can we know and understand what is required of us to have a right standing before God. That “right standing” before God can only come through faith in Jesus Christ which can only come from God. It’s not simply that a non-believer can’t come to “saving faith” in Christ apart from intervention by God. It’s that he won’t come because of his radically fallen nature due to the fall.

You sure do know Gods' Rule Book.
How did you come to such sure knowledge?

[Shotgun 1]

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You don't have an invisible psychotic bipolar sadistic egomaniacal friend like he does?

Actually, I do, but mine is named Tom. And he's only sadistic in a charming sort of way.

Edit: Oh, and for some reason they took my guns away when I told my doctor about him.