kallend 2,131 #126 July 16, 2011 Quote Speaking of responsible... has Obama finally taken responsibility for the last two years, or is that still Bush's fault? Indeed. The recession that started in 2007 and collapsed the world economy is STILL Bush's fault. The tax cuts that killed the predicted surplus are still Bush's fault. Failing to put in a short circuit on those tax cuts, as suggested by Greenspan on 1/25/2001, is still Bush's fault. "Reagan proved that deficits don't matter"; V.P. Dick Cheney.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hwt 0 #127 July 16, 2011 Quote Have you failed to follow the news recently? Do you not get that almost everything that the Obama administration and the Demcratic congress tried to do was stymied by the gross abuse of the filibuster in the Seante? Are you really so clueless that you don't know or care about how the Senate is supposed to work, and what the Rescumlicans have done to fuck up its operations completely? Is your memory so weak that you can't recall the Rescumlicans pitching a bitch in 2005 over the Democrat's use of the filibuster to stop ShrubCo to some extent? Right Wing Conservatives hate the USA, especially the poor and old people. Why else would you scumbags support cutting programs that help them, while keeping TEMPORARY tax cuts in place during a time of a national fiscal crisis? The crisis caused by the practical application of RWC policies. HEY ASSHOLES, the Bush tax cuts were supposed to expire after ten years. Remember the marketing bullshit you suckers fell for? "Were're giving your own money back to you with these tax cuts since we have a budget surplus now." Now we need the tax cuts to end and the Rescumlicans held the poor and unemployed hostage to extend them for two more years. Rich people grinding the poor into the dirt, cheered on by asshole RWCs. It might be time to apply some second amendment remedies to the obstructionists and the supporters that are holding the USA hostage to the extremely wealthy. RWCs are dumb as dirt, and really proud of it. Fucking awesome... The Texas education system seems to produce very poorly educated people. People who know little or nothing outside of the state. People who know squat about world history, world politics, and how the USA fits into that picture. Why don't you useless fucks go ahead and secede from the USA and quit taking MY tax dollars and wasting them in YOUR state? Your governeor has spoken openly about it, and you useless fucks didn't punt him out of office for being a traitor. Speaking of the filibuster . let us speak about the one that took down the economy. Time for a history lesson. watch the whole thing and try to focus.. http://youtu.be/VgctSIL8Lhs http://youtu.be/usvG-s_Ssb0 http://youtu.be/_MGT_cSi7Rs Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bolas 5 #128 July 16, 2011 Quote Quote Speaking of responsible... has Obama finally taken responsibility for the last two years, or is that still Bush's fault? Indeed. The recession that started in 2007 and collapsed the world economy is STILL Bush's fault. The tax cuts that killed the predicted surplus are still Bush's fault. Failing to put in a short circuit on those tax cuts, as suggested by Greenspan on 1/25/2001, is still Bush's fault. "Reagan proved that deficits don't matter"; V.P. Dick Cheney. Might as well blame Bush for "spending our way out of debt" too as you're own a roll. Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,096 #129 July 16, 2011 >The recession that started in 2007 and collapsed the world economy is STILL Bush's >fault. The tax cuts that killed the predicted surplus are still Bush's fault. Although in his defense, the Bush bailouts were at least an attempt to fix them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #130 July 16, 2011 QuoteHave you failed to follow the news recently? Do you not get that almost everything that the Obama administration and the Demcratic congress tried to do was stymied by the gross abuse of the filibuster in the Seante? Are you really so clueless that you don't know or care about how the Senate is supposed to work, and what the Rescumlicans have done to fuck up its operations completely? Is your memory so weak that you can't recall the Rescumlicans pitching a bitch in 2005 over the Democrat's use of the filibuster to stop ShrubCo to some extent? Still haven't figured out that a cloture vote doesn't guarantee the presence of a filibuster, eh? Oh well... QuoteRight Wing Conservatives hate the USA, especially the poor and old people. Why else would you scumbags support cutting programs that help them, while keeping TEMPORARY tax cuts in place during a time of a national fiscal crisis? The crisis caused by the practical application of RWC policies. HEY ASSHOLES, the Bush tax cuts were supposed to expire after ten years. Remember the marketing bullshit you suckers fell for? "Were're giving your own money back to you with these tax cuts since we have a budget surplus now." So, sort of like the Obama SS tax change for this year? For that matter, since SS is in such bad shape, *WHY* did he reduce the revenues going into the trust? QuoteNow we need the tax cuts to end and the Rescumlicans held the poor and unemployed hostage to extend them for two more years. Which, of course, is why OBAMA cut the SS tax rate and then said that "he can't guarantee the payments will go out". QuoteRich people grinding the poor into the dirt, cheered on by asshole RWCs. It might be time to apply some second amendment remedies to the obstructionists and the supporters that are holding the USA hostage to the extremely wealthy. Violent rhetoric from the Lefties.... how unsurprising. QuoteLWCs are dumb as dirt, and really proud of it. Fucking awesome... Fixed for you again. QuoteThe Texas education system seems to produce very poorly educated people. People who know little or nothing outside of the state. People who know squat about world history, world politics, and how the USA fits into that picture. You get your own opinion, not your own facts. NEA listings 2009: Grade 8 science: California: 137, below the nat'l average of 149 Texas: 150, not significantly different than nat'l average of 149 Grade 8 math: California: 270, below the nat'l average of 282 Texas: 287, above the nat'l average of 282 Grade 8 reading: California: 253, lower than the nat'l average of 262 Texas: 260, not significantly different than nat'l average of 262 They don't break out history by states...but I don't expect the string to break. QuoteWhy don't you useless fucks go ahead and secede from the USA and quit taking MY tax dollars and wasting them in YOUR state? Your governeor has spoken openly about it, and you useless fucks didn't punt him out of office for being a traitor. Seem to recall a thread about a Cali politician that wants to split the state... Texas added 732k jobs in the last 10 years...how'd Cali do? Oh, yeah.... down 623k.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DanJohnson 0 #131 July 16, 2011 QuoteQuoteSon, I'm old enough and wise enough not to legitimize this charade of national elections by my participation. Well, that pretty much says it all. QuoteHow about you,Andy? Did you as a mouse stand in line to cast a vote for either of the cats on the ballot? Nope. I did that as a citizen of this country, thank you. It's just too bad that the two listed were a comparison of two evils. That's why I usually write-in. Quote LOL! Andy, the mouse thing wasn't meant as a dig at you or a reference to lack of spine, etc. It is an old analogy of our electorial process. The mice every four years do their civic duty, go to the polls and cast a ballot for one of the two cats. The fat cat gets elected but makes laws which are good for the cats and not so good for the mice. Four years later the mice go back to the polls and this time they vote in the white cat. The white cat makes laws which are good for the cats , not so good for the mice. Finally a black cat runs and promises change you can believe in. But the black cat gets into office and guess what.., he makes laws that are good for the cats , not so good for the mice. As long as the mice only have the option on the ballot of voting for cats there really is no reason for them to go to the polls. If ever a mouse became really popular and had a chance of winning and doing something for the mice, they'ld call him a Bolshevick and have him arrested. As far as the mice writing in a candidate.., when was the last time a write in won a presidential election? Here is a note from a man far smarter than myselfhttp://dailybail.com/home/george-carlin-on-politicians-the-public-and-why-he-doesnt-vo.html Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites DanJohnson 0 #132 July 16, 2011 [reply. It might be time to apply some second amendment remedies to the obstructionists and the supporters that are holding the USA hostage to the extremely wealthy.Quote Relax. Get a drink of water. Walk around a bit and enjoy all of your senses. Relax. OK, now, really.., you don't really want to act out violently inorder to propigate the changes you believe our system of governance requires do you? It can be changed non violently. One doesn't pursue peace, tranquility, and economic stability with a gun in hand. Things are about to change in a major way as the Universe takes its' course. All these economic problems are a sideshow distraction to keep your mind off what is really coming around the sun in the not to distant future. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites popsjumper 2 #133 July 18, 2011 Quote LOL! Andy, the mouse thing wasn't meant as a dig at you or a reference to lack of spine, etc. OK...I can let me hackles down now. Quote As far as the mice writing in a candidate.., when was the last time a write in won a presidential election? Uh.....gimme a minute.... My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites popsjumper 2 #134 July 18, 2011 QuoteAll these economic problems are a sideshow distraction to keep your mind off what is really coming around the sun in the not to distant future. I can certainly agree with that! We are just about to get hit by a bus and we don't even see it coming.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 3,096 #135 July 18, 2011 >I will remember this statement because i do not believe the economy >will return "as it always has".. Towards the end of the Bush presidency, we were clearly entering a recession - but right wing posters here denied it with all their might. "It's a bad day to be crying the R word!" one poster here proclaimed. Now that Obama is in office, right wing posters post doom and gloom daily to try to justify their attacks on Obama. Every time there is a sign the economy is starting to recover they deny it and repeat the doom and gloom message, hoping that the recession lasts long enough to fuel their attacks on Obama. But have no fear. Someday there will be a republican president again, and at that point you can go back to proclaiming how great the economy is, and attacking anyone who says that it has problems. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Gravitymaster 0 #136 July 18, 2011 Quote >I will remember this statement because i do not believe the economy >will return "as it always has".. Towards the end of the Bush presidency, we were clearly entering a recession - but right wing posters here denied it with all their might. "It's a bad day to be crying the R word!" one poster here proclaimed. Now that Obama is in office, right wing posters post doom and gloom daily to try to justify their attacks on Obama. Every time there is a sign the economy is starting to recover they deny it and repeat the doom and gloom message, hoping that the recession lasts long enough to fuel their attacks on Obama. But have no fear. Someday there will be a republican president again, and at that point you can go back to proclaiming how great the economy is, and attacking anyone who says that it has problems. That's right, the recession started when Democrats took over the house after the 2006 elections. I can tell you, I sold every paper investment I had at that time and bought gold. Smartest thing I ever did because I knew they would destroy the economy. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 3,096 #137 July 18, 2011 >That's right, the recession started when Democrats took over the >house after the 2006 elections. Hmm . . . ==================== Gawain Apr 30, 2008, 6:17 PM Post #1 of 116 (683 views) Must be a Tough Day to be Crying the "R" word... With all the liberal psyching into a "recession"...which means there have been two-consecutive-quarters of contraction in the GDP...we haven't even had one yet. Now, was the 1Q08 a roaring expansion? At 0.6%, certainly not. Consumer spending was up 1% and energy and food prices are clear issues that need to be monitored carefully. Either way, it must be tough to be a liberal who's been crying "R" for a while...the doom and gloom is near... ===================== Does this mean that you're now a . . . . doom and gloom liberal? O the humanity! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites devildog 0 #138 July 18, 2011 Quote Quote >I will remember this statement because i do not believe the economy >will return "as it always has".. Towards the end of the Bush presidency, we were clearly entering a recession - but right wing posters here denied it with all their might. "It's a bad day to be crying the R word!" one poster here proclaimed. Now that Obama is in office, right wing posters post doom and gloom daily to try to justify their attacks on Obama. Every time there is a sign the economy is starting to recover they deny it and repeat the doom and gloom message, hoping that the recession lasts long enough to fuel their attacks on Obama. But have no fear. Someday there will be a republican president again, and at that point you can go back to proclaiming how great the economy is, and attacking anyone who says that it has problems. That's right, the recession started when Democrats took over the house after the 2006 elections. I can tell you, I sold every paper investment I had at that time and bought gold. Smartest thing I ever did because I knew they would destroy the economy. I bought more stocks in the crash and they've done far better than gold could ever have dreamed. Ford was at a dollar a share, had a 52 week high of 18.97 (currently 12.70). Apple went from 80 something to 340ish. Siris was down .06 and is now 2.20 or so, etc. Besides, in Armageddon, ammo will be worth more than gold :)You stop breathing for a few minutes and everyone jumps to conclusions. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 3,096 #139 July 18, 2011 >Not raising the debt ceiling is a silly place to make a stand on budgetary issues. Agreed. From the Economist: ========================= America's debt Shame on them The Republicans are playing a cynical political game with hugely high economic stakes Jul 7th 2011 IN THREE weeks, if there is no political deal, the American government will go into default. Not, one must pray, on its sovereign debt. But the country will have to stop paying someone: perhaps pensioners, or government suppliers, or soldiers. That would be damaging enough at a time of economic fragility. And the longer such a default went on, the greater the risk of provoking a genuine bond crisis would become. There is no good economic reason why this should be happening. America’s net indebtedness is a perfectly affordable 65% of GDP, and throughout the past three years of recession and tepid recovery investors have been more than happy to go on lending to the federal government. The current problems, rather, are political. Under America’s elaborate separation of powers, Congress must authorise any extension of the debt ceiling, which now stands at $14.3 trillion. Back in May the government bumped up against that limit, but various accounting dodges have been used to keep funds flowing. It is now reckoned that these wheezes will be exhausted by August 2nd. The House of Representatives, under Republican control as a result of last November’s mid-term elections, has balked at passing the necessary bill. That is perfectly reasonable: until recently the Republicans had been exercising their clear electoral mandate to hold the government of Barack Obama to account, insisting that they will not permit a higher debt ceiling until agreement is reached on wrenching cuts to public spending. Until they started to play hardball in this way, Mr Obama had been deplorably insouciant about the medium-term picture, repeatedly failing in his budgets and his state-of-the-union speeches to offer any path to a sustainable deficit. Under heavy Republican pressure, he has been forced to rethink. Now, however, the Republicans are pushing things too far. Talks with the administration ground to a halt last month, despite an offer from the Democrats to cut at least $2 trillion and possibly much more out of the budget over the next ten years. Assuming that the recovery continues, that would be enough to get the deficit back to a prudent level. As The Economist went to press, Mr Obama seemed set to restart the talks. The sticking-point is not on the spending side. It is because the vast majority of Republicans, driven on by the wilder-eyed members of their party and the cacophony of conservative media, are clinging to the position that not a single cent of deficit reduction must come from a higher tax take. This is economically illiterate and disgracefully cynical. This newspaper has a strong dislike of big government; we have long argued that the main way to right America’s finances is through spending cuts. But you cannot get there without any tax rises. In Britain, for instance, the coalition government aims to tame its deficit with a 3:1 ratio of cuts to hikes. America’s tax take is at its lowest level for decades: even Ronald Reagan raised taxes when he needed to do so. And the closer you look, the more unprincipled the Republicans look. Earlier this year House Republicans produced a report noting that an 85%-15% split between spending cuts and tax rises was the average for successful fiscal consolidations, according to historical evidence. The White House is offering an 83%-17% split (hardly a huge distance) and a promise that none of the revenue increase will come from higher marginal rates, only from eliminating loopholes. If the Republicans were real tax reformers, they would seize this offer. Both parties have in recent months been guilty of fiscal recklessness. Right now, though, the blame falls clearly on the Republicans. Independent voters should take note. =============================== Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,131 #140 July 18, 2011 Quote Both parties have in recent months been guilty of fiscal recklessness. Right now, though, the blame falls clearly on the Republicans. Independent voters should take note. =============================== Poll this morning showed 43% of voters approving of Obama's position and 21% approving of the GOP position.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites devildog 0 #141 July 18, 2011 Quote Both parties have in recent months been guilty of fiscal recklessness. Right now, though, the blame falls clearly on the Republicans. Independent voters should take note. ============================== This is nonsense. The republicans have 1 portion of the govt, the house, and even that only recently. The dems have had both the Senate and the House since 06 (till 10) and for two years, they could have done whatever they wanted if they had the magic fix to everything (and the evil repubs were just stopping them). And just to quote a recent Rubio statement, "OK, so where’s the plan? Where’s the president’s plan? I’ve never seen a piece of paper with the president’s name on it that’s his plan to solve this crisis. I’ve seen press conferences. I’ve seen lectures that he’s given to the Congress. I’ve seen these press avails where the camera comes in and takes a bunch of pictures. I haven’t seen a plan. Where is the president’s plan?" Lastly, independents are taking note, and they're moving away from Obama and friends. All the polls show it.You stop breathing for a few minutes and everyone jumps to conclusions. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites devildog 0 #142 July 18, 2011 QuoteQuote Both parties have in recent months been guilty of fiscal recklessness. Right now, though, the blame falls clearly on the Republicans. Independent voters should take note. =============================== Poll this morning showed 43% of voters approving of Obama's position and 21% approving of the GOP position. link?You stop breathing for a few minutes and everyone jumps to conclusions. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Gravitymaster 0 #143 July 18, 2011 QuoteQuote Both parties have in recent months been guilty of fiscal recklessness. Right now, though, the blame falls clearly on the Republicans. Independent voters should take note. =============================== Poll this morning showed 43% of voters approving of Obama's position and 21% approving of the GOP position. Really?? Other than "we need to raise taxes on the wealthy" what is Obamas position? Have you seen his budget proposal? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 3,096 #144 July 18, 2011 >The republicans have 1 portion of the govt, the house, and even that only recently. Right. So both sides have to work together to solve this problem. McConnell and Reid have started to do just that; let's hope this continues. >And just to quote a recent Rubio statement, "OK, so where’s the plan? >Where’s the president’s plan?" =============================== Obama Plan Aims For $4 Trillion In Deficit Cuts By Liz Halloran, NPR April 13, 2011 President Obama, under increasing pressure to address the nation's burgeoning debt, on Wednesday laid out a sweeping vision to cut government deficits by more than $4 trillion in 12 years through tax increases and spending cuts phased in over time. In a speech at George Washington University in the nation's capital, Obama melded his progressive campaign rhetoric with presidential policy, rejecting Republican plans to remake Medicare and Medicare and proposing a mechanism that would trigger across-the-board spending cuts and tax increases if Congress fails to meet deficit-reduction targets. And he said he's asked Vice President Biden to meet with congressional leaders to come up with a bipartisan deficit-reduction plan by June, about the time Congress will be asked to raise the government's $14.3 trillion debt ceiling. "I know there are Republicans and Democrats in Congress who want to see a balanced approach to deficit reduction," Obama said. Obama's proposals hewed closely, but not perfectly, with recommendations made months ago by his bipartisan deficit reduction commission but never acted on. ================= Spending cuts: Cut non-security spending over the next decade in a manner recommended by his debt commission. The commission set 2012 non-security spending at 2011 levels, and by 2020, would allocate only slightly more than the 2012 amount. Obama estimates that his proposal would save an additional $200 billion over the $400 billion five-year freeze in non-security discretionary spending he proposed in his 2012 budget request. (The voters are ready for debt reduction. Is Washington) He also is calling for growth in base security spending to remain below inflation, which the White House estimates would save $400 billion over the next 12 years. That's less in savings than his debt commission achieved. ================= Tax changes: . . . expiration of the Bush-era tax cuts for the wealthy. He approved their two-year extension last December to ensure other provisions were maintained to protect the middle class, he said. But, he added, "I refuse to renew them again." He may not be faced with such a choice again because he also proposed a future in which those tax cuts would be irrelevant for everyone. He lent his support to the idea of reforming the individual tax code in a way that reduces tax breaks in order to pay for the cost of lowering tax rates and reducing the deficit. A White House fact sheet stressed that the new code would have to be "simpler, fairer and not rigged in favor of those who can afford lawyers and accountants to game it." ================== None of the above should come as surprises as they all came out of the bipartisan debt committee report. So if your question is really "what are the options?" here are a few: ======================== The Biden group, headed by Vice President Joe Biden and included House Majority Leader Eric Cantor (R., Va.), produced a plan to cut projected budget deficits by $2 trillion over ten years. It included cuts in Medicaid, raising Medicaid premiums for the wealthy, raising contributions that federal employees must make towards their pensions, cutting farm subsidies, and cuts in the budgets of most federal agencies including the military. Cantor pulled out of the negotiations over proposed tax revenue increases in the plan. Cantor has since risen as the major spokesman for the Tea Party conservatives among House Republicans. ======================= House Speaker John A Boehner (R-Ohio) teamed up with President Obama to propose what has been referred to as a “grand bargain.” It would cut projected budget deficits by double the amount proposed in the Biden group plan. Discussions on cuts in that plan included an increase in the Medicare eligibility age from 65 to 67 and a decrease in future Social Security Benefits. This plan has run into stiff opposition from conservative House Republicans over provisions in the plan to raise tax revenues, including ending oil and gas industry subsidies, raising taxes on hedge funds, and increasing taxes on higher incomes. It also generated opposition from liberal Democrats oppossed to cuts in Social Security, and to some extent the cuts to Medicare. ========================= The third plan on the table is essentially a stop gap to get us through the 2012 election. It has been proposed by Senate Republican leader Mitch McConnell (Ky.). Under this plan, Congress would grant President Obama authority to raise the debt ceiling and authorize new government borrowing by $2.5 trillion. But the President would need to do it in three installments, each time coming back to allow Congress to vote on a non-binding resolution that would express Congress’ dissaproval. In negotioations with Senate majority leader Harry M. Reid (D-Nev.), $1.5 trillion in cuts to government agency budgets have been addedd to the plan, and it would include the formation of a bipartisan committee charged with coming up with a longer term deficit reduction plan. ========================= >Lastly, independents are taking note, and they're moving away >from Obama and friends. All the polls show it. You may have inadvertently looked at a FOX report or something: ===================== July 18, 2011 7:04 AM Poll: 71% shun GOP handling of debt crisis Tucker Reals Americans are unimpressed with their political leaders' handling of the debt ceiling crisis, with a new CBS News poll showing a majority disapprove of all the involved parties' conduct, but Republicans in Congress fare the worst, with just 21 percent backing their resistance to raising taxes. President Obama earned the most generous approval ratings for his handling of the weeks-old negotiations, but still more people said they disapproved (48 percent) than approved (43 percent) of what he has done and said. ================== Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Bolas 5 #145 July 18, 2011 Quote In a speech at George Washington University in the nation's capital, Obama melded his progressive campaign rhetoric with presidential policy, rejecting Republican plans to remake Medicare and Medicare and proposing a mechanism that would trigger across-the-board spending cuts and tax increases if Congress fails to meet deficit-reduction targets. I thought the Repubs were just dragging their heels, but if no actually budget plan has been given to them, they're doing what's needed. It's the Obamacare, "How are we going to pay for it" vs. "They won't pass the bill" all over again. Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mnealtx 0 #146 July 19, 2011 QuoteQuoteQuote Both parties have in recent months been guilty of fiscal recklessness. Right now, though, the blame falls clearly on the Republicans. Independent voters should take note. =============================== Poll this morning showed 43% of voters approving of Obama's position and 21% approving of the GOP position. link? CBS news poll, (link), talking about Obama's handling of the situation, not opinion for/against the debt ceiling raise. You'll note how careful he was to NOT mention that 48% DISAPPROVE of Obama's handling. Also carefully not mentioned in the article is another poll (Gallup), from 10-12 July. That's the one that says that 42% are against raising the debt ceiling vs. 22% for it.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,131 #147 July 20, 2011 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuote Both parties have in recent months been guilty of fiscal recklessness. Right now, though, the blame falls clearly on the Republicans. Independent voters should take note. =============================== Poll this morning showed 43% of voters approving of Obama's position and 21% approving of the GOP position. link? CBS news poll, (link), talking about Obama's handling of the situation, not opinion for/against the debt ceiling raise. You'll note how careful he was to NOT mention that 48% DISAPPROVE of Obama's handling. . Didn't mention how many DISAPPROVE of the Republican handling either.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mdrejhon 8 #148 July 20, 2011 QuoteDidn't mention how many DISAPPROVE of the Republican handling either.Did they let people vote on disapproving BOTH parties' handling? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 3,096 #149 July 20, 2011 >Didn't mention how many DISAPPROVE of the Republican handling either. Sure, 68% disapprove of the job Republicans are doing on the deficit. But doesn't that mean that 68% of people approve of the job they're NOT doing? Think about it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 Next Page 6 of 6 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. 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DanJohnson 0 #132 July 16, 2011 [reply. It might be time to apply some second amendment remedies to the obstructionists and the supporters that are holding the USA hostage to the extremely wealthy.Quote Relax. Get a drink of water. Walk around a bit and enjoy all of your senses. Relax. OK, now, really.., you don't really want to act out violently inorder to propigate the changes you believe our system of governance requires do you? It can be changed non violently. One doesn't pursue peace, tranquility, and economic stability with a gun in hand. Things are about to change in a major way as the Universe takes its' course. All these economic problems are a sideshow distraction to keep your mind off what is really coming around the sun in the not to distant future. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites popsjumper 2 #133 July 18, 2011 Quote LOL! Andy, the mouse thing wasn't meant as a dig at you or a reference to lack of spine, etc. OK...I can let me hackles down now. Quote As far as the mice writing in a candidate.., when was the last time a write in won a presidential election? Uh.....gimme a minute.... My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites popsjumper 2 #134 July 18, 2011 QuoteAll these economic problems are a sideshow distraction to keep your mind off what is really coming around the sun in the not to distant future. I can certainly agree with that! We are just about to get hit by a bus and we don't even see it coming.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 3,096 #135 July 18, 2011 >I will remember this statement because i do not believe the economy >will return "as it always has".. Towards the end of the Bush presidency, we were clearly entering a recession - but right wing posters here denied it with all their might. "It's a bad day to be crying the R word!" one poster here proclaimed. Now that Obama is in office, right wing posters post doom and gloom daily to try to justify their attacks on Obama. Every time there is a sign the economy is starting to recover they deny it and repeat the doom and gloom message, hoping that the recession lasts long enough to fuel their attacks on Obama. But have no fear. Someday there will be a republican president again, and at that point you can go back to proclaiming how great the economy is, and attacking anyone who says that it has problems. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Gravitymaster 0 #136 July 18, 2011 Quote >I will remember this statement because i do not believe the economy >will return "as it always has".. Towards the end of the Bush presidency, we were clearly entering a recession - but right wing posters here denied it with all their might. "It's a bad day to be crying the R word!" one poster here proclaimed. Now that Obama is in office, right wing posters post doom and gloom daily to try to justify their attacks on Obama. Every time there is a sign the economy is starting to recover they deny it and repeat the doom and gloom message, hoping that the recession lasts long enough to fuel their attacks on Obama. But have no fear. Someday there will be a republican president again, and at that point you can go back to proclaiming how great the economy is, and attacking anyone who says that it has problems. That's right, the recession started when Democrats took over the house after the 2006 elections. I can tell you, I sold every paper investment I had at that time and bought gold. Smartest thing I ever did because I knew they would destroy the economy. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 3,096 #137 July 18, 2011 >That's right, the recession started when Democrats took over the >house after the 2006 elections. Hmm . . . ==================== Gawain Apr 30, 2008, 6:17 PM Post #1 of 116 (683 views) Must be a Tough Day to be Crying the "R" word... With all the liberal psyching into a "recession"...which means there have been two-consecutive-quarters of contraction in the GDP...we haven't even had one yet. Now, was the 1Q08 a roaring expansion? At 0.6%, certainly not. Consumer spending was up 1% and energy and food prices are clear issues that need to be monitored carefully. Either way, it must be tough to be a liberal who's been crying "R" for a while...the doom and gloom is near... ===================== Does this mean that you're now a . . . . doom and gloom liberal? O the humanity! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites devildog 0 #138 July 18, 2011 Quote Quote >I will remember this statement because i do not believe the economy >will return "as it always has".. Towards the end of the Bush presidency, we were clearly entering a recession - but right wing posters here denied it with all their might. "It's a bad day to be crying the R word!" one poster here proclaimed. Now that Obama is in office, right wing posters post doom and gloom daily to try to justify their attacks on Obama. Every time there is a sign the economy is starting to recover they deny it and repeat the doom and gloom message, hoping that the recession lasts long enough to fuel their attacks on Obama. But have no fear. Someday there will be a republican president again, and at that point you can go back to proclaiming how great the economy is, and attacking anyone who says that it has problems. That's right, the recession started when Democrats took over the house after the 2006 elections. I can tell you, I sold every paper investment I had at that time and bought gold. Smartest thing I ever did because I knew they would destroy the economy. I bought more stocks in the crash and they've done far better than gold could ever have dreamed. Ford was at a dollar a share, had a 52 week high of 18.97 (currently 12.70). Apple went from 80 something to 340ish. Siris was down .06 and is now 2.20 or so, etc. Besides, in Armageddon, ammo will be worth more than gold :)You stop breathing for a few minutes and everyone jumps to conclusions. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 3,096 #139 July 18, 2011 >Not raising the debt ceiling is a silly place to make a stand on budgetary issues. Agreed. From the Economist: ========================= America's debt Shame on them The Republicans are playing a cynical political game with hugely high economic stakes Jul 7th 2011 IN THREE weeks, if there is no political deal, the American government will go into default. Not, one must pray, on its sovereign debt. But the country will have to stop paying someone: perhaps pensioners, or government suppliers, or soldiers. That would be damaging enough at a time of economic fragility. And the longer such a default went on, the greater the risk of provoking a genuine bond crisis would become. There is no good economic reason why this should be happening. America’s net indebtedness is a perfectly affordable 65% of GDP, and throughout the past three years of recession and tepid recovery investors have been more than happy to go on lending to the federal government. The current problems, rather, are political. Under America’s elaborate separation of powers, Congress must authorise any extension of the debt ceiling, which now stands at $14.3 trillion. Back in May the government bumped up against that limit, but various accounting dodges have been used to keep funds flowing. It is now reckoned that these wheezes will be exhausted by August 2nd. The House of Representatives, under Republican control as a result of last November’s mid-term elections, has balked at passing the necessary bill. That is perfectly reasonable: until recently the Republicans had been exercising their clear electoral mandate to hold the government of Barack Obama to account, insisting that they will not permit a higher debt ceiling until agreement is reached on wrenching cuts to public spending. Until they started to play hardball in this way, Mr Obama had been deplorably insouciant about the medium-term picture, repeatedly failing in his budgets and his state-of-the-union speeches to offer any path to a sustainable deficit. Under heavy Republican pressure, he has been forced to rethink. Now, however, the Republicans are pushing things too far. Talks with the administration ground to a halt last month, despite an offer from the Democrats to cut at least $2 trillion and possibly much more out of the budget over the next ten years. Assuming that the recovery continues, that would be enough to get the deficit back to a prudent level. As The Economist went to press, Mr Obama seemed set to restart the talks. The sticking-point is not on the spending side. It is because the vast majority of Republicans, driven on by the wilder-eyed members of their party and the cacophony of conservative media, are clinging to the position that not a single cent of deficit reduction must come from a higher tax take. This is economically illiterate and disgracefully cynical. This newspaper has a strong dislike of big government; we have long argued that the main way to right America’s finances is through spending cuts. But you cannot get there without any tax rises. In Britain, for instance, the coalition government aims to tame its deficit with a 3:1 ratio of cuts to hikes. America’s tax take is at its lowest level for decades: even Ronald Reagan raised taxes when he needed to do so. And the closer you look, the more unprincipled the Republicans look. Earlier this year House Republicans produced a report noting that an 85%-15% split between spending cuts and tax rises was the average for successful fiscal consolidations, according to historical evidence. The White House is offering an 83%-17% split (hardly a huge distance) and a promise that none of the revenue increase will come from higher marginal rates, only from eliminating loopholes. If the Republicans were real tax reformers, they would seize this offer. Both parties have in recent months been guilty of fiscal recklessness. Right now, though, the blame falls clearly on the Republicans. Independent voters should take note. =============================== Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,131 #140 July 18, 2011 Quote Both parties have in recent months been guilty of fiscal recklessness. Right now, though, the blame falls clearly on the Republicans. Independent voters should take note. =============================== Poll this morning showed 43% of voters approving of Obama's position and 21% approving of the GOP position.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites devildog 0 #141 July 18, 2011 Quote Both parties have in recent months been guilty of fiscal recklessness. Right now, though, the blame falls clearly on the Republicans. Independent voters should take note. ============================== This is nonsense. The republicans have 1 portion of the govt, the house, and even that only recently. The dems have had both the Senate and the House since 06 (till 10) and for two years, they could have done whatever they wanted if they had the magic fix to everything (and the evil repubs were just stopping them). And just to quote a recent Rubio statement, "OK, so where’s the plan? Where’s the president’s plan? I’ve never seen a piece of paper with the president’s name on it that’s his plan to solve this crisis. I’ve seen press conferences. I’ve seen lectures that he’s given to the Congress. I’ve seen these press avails where the camera comes in and takes a bunch of pictures. I haven’t seen a plan. Where is the president’s plan?" Lastly, independents are taking note, and they're moving away from Obama and friends. All the polls show it.You stop breathing for a few minutes and everyone jumps to conclusions. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites devildog 0 #142 July 18, 2011 QuoteQuote Both parties have in recent months been guilty of fiscal recklessness. Right now, though, the blame falls clearly on the Republicans. Independent voters should take note. =============================== Poll this morning showed 43% of voters approving of Obama's position and 21% approving of the GOP position. link?You stop breathing for a few minutes and everyone jumps to conclusions. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Gravitymaster 0 #143 July 18, 2011 QuoteQuote Both parties have in recent months been guilty of fiscal recklessness. Right now, though, the blame falls clearly on the Republicans. Independent voters should take note. =============================== Poll this morning showed 43% of voters approving of Obama's position and 21% approving of the GOP position. Really?? Other than "we need to raise taxes on the wealthy" what is Obamas position? Have you seen his budget proposal? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 3,096 #144 July 18, 2011 >The republicans have 1 portion of the govt, the house, and even that only recently. Right. So both sides have to work together to solve this problem. McConnell and Reid have started to do just that; let's hope this continues. >And just to quote a recent Rubio statement, "OK, so where’s the plan? >Where’s the president’s plan?" =============================== Obama Plan Aims For $4 Trillion In Deficit Cuts By Liz Halloran, NPR April 13, 2011 President Obama, under increasing pressure to address the nation's burgeoning debt, on Wednesday laid out a sweeping vision to cut government deficits by more than $4 trillion in 12 years through tax increases and spending cuts phased in over time. In a speech at George Washington University in the nation's capital, Obama melded his progressive campaign rhetoric with presidential policy, rejecting Republican plans to remake Medicare and Medicare and proposing a mechanism that would trigger across-the-board spending cuts and tax increases if Congress fails to meet deficit-reduction targets. And he said he's asked Vice President Biden to meet with congressional leaders to come up with a bipartisan deficit-reduction plan by June, about the time Congress will be asked to raise the government's $14.3 trillion debt ceiling. "I know there are Republicans and Democrats in Congress who want to see a balanced approach to deficit reduction," Obama said. Obama's proposals hewed closely, but not perfectly, with recommendations made months ago by his bipartisan deficit reduction commission but never acted on. ================= Spending cuts: Cut non-security spending over the next decade in a manner recommended by his debt commission. The commission set 2012 non-security spending at 2011 levels, and by 2020, would allocate only slightly more than the 2012 amount. Obama estimates that his proposal would save an additional $200 billion over the $400 billion five-year freeze in non-security discretionary spending he proposed in his 2012 budget request. (The voters are ready for debt reduction. Is Washington) He also is calling for growth in base security spending to remain below inflation, which the White House estimates would save $400 billion over the next 12 years. That's less in savings than his debt commission achieved. ================= Tax changes: . . . expiration of the Bush-era tax cuts for the wealthy. He approved their two-year extension last December to ensure other provisions were maintained to protect the middle class, he said. But, he added, "I refuse to renew them again." He may not be faced with such a choice again because he also proposed a future in which those tax cuts would be irrelevant for everyone. He lent his support to the idea of reforming the individual tax code in a way that reduces tax breaks in order to pay for the cost of lowering tax rates and reducing the deficit. A White House fact sheet stressed that the new code would have to be "simpler, fairer and not rigged in favor of those who can afford lawyers and accountants to game it." ================== None of the above should come as surprises as they all came out of the bipartisan debt committee report. So if your question is really "what are the options?" here are a few: ======================== The Biden group, headed by Vice President Joe Biden and included House Majority Leader Eric Cantor (R., Va.), produced a plan to cut projected budget deficits by $2 trillion over ten years. It included cuts in Medicaid, raising Medicaid premiums for the wealthy, raising contributions that federal employees must make towards their pensions, cutting farm subsidies, and cuts in the budgets of most federal agencies including the military. Cantor pulled out of the negotiations over proposed tax revenue increases in the plan. Cantor has since risen as the major spokesman for the Tea Party conservatives among House Republicans. ======================= House Speaker John A Boehner (R-Ohio) teamed up with President Obama to propose what has been referred to as a “grand bargain.” It would cut projected budget deficits by double the amount proposed in the Biden group plan. Discussions on cuts in that plan included an increase in the Medicare eligibility age from 65 to 67 and a decrease in future Social Security Benefits. This plan has run into stiff opposition from conservative House Republicans over provisions in the plan to raise tax revenues, including ending oil and gas industry subsidies, raising taxes on hedge funds, and increasing taxes on higher incomes. It also generated opposition from liberal Democrats oppossed to cuts in Social Security, and to some extent the cuts to Medicare. ========================= The third plan on the table is essentially a stop gap to get us through the 2012 election. It has been proposed by Senate Republican leader Mitch McConnell (Ky.). Under this plan, Congress would grant President Obama authority to raise the debt ceiling and authorize new government borrowing by $2.5 trillion. But the President would need to do it in three installments, each time coming back to allow Congress to vote on a non-binding resolution that would express Congress’ dissaproval. In negotioations with Senate majority leader Harry M. Reid (D-Nev.), $1.5 trillion in cuts to government agency budgets have been addedd to the plan, and it would include the formation of a bipartisan committee charged with coming up with a longer term deficit reduction plan. ========================= >Lastly, independents are taking note, and they're moving away >from Obama and friends. All the polls show it. You may have inadvertently looked at a FOX report or something: ===================== July 18, 2011 7:04 AM Poll: 71% shun GOP handling of debt crisis Tucker Reals Americans are unimpressed with their political leaders' handling of the debt ceiling crisis, with a new CBS News poll showing a majority disapprove of all the involved parties' conduct, but Republicans in Congress fare the worst, with just 21 percent backing their resistance to raising taxes. President Obama earned the most generous approval ratings for his handling of the weeks-old negotiations, but still more people said they disapproved (48 percent) than approved (43 percent) of what he has done and said. ================== Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Bolas 5 #145 July 18, 2011 Quote In a speech at George Washington University in the nation's capital, Obama melded his progressive campaign rhetoric with presidential policy, rejecting Republican plans to remake Medicare and Medicare and proposing a mechanism that would trigger across-the-board spending cuts and tax increases if Congress fails to meet deficit-reduction targets. I thought the Repubs were just dragging their heels, but if no actually budget plan has been given to them, they're doing what's needed. It's the Obamacare, "How are we going to pay for it" vs. "They won't pass the bill" all over again. Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mnealtx 0 #146 July 19, 2011 QuoteQuoteQuote Both parties have in recent months been guilty of fiscal recklessness. Right now, though, the blame falls clearly on the Republicans. Independent voters should take note. =============================== Poll this morning showed 43% of voters approving of Obama's position and 21% approving of the GOP position. link? CBS news poll, (link), talking about Obama's handling of the situation, not opinion for/against the debt ceiling raise. You'll note how careful he was to NOT mention that 48% DISAPPROVE of Obama's handling. Also carefully not mentioned in the article is another poll (Gallup), from 10-12 July. That's the one that says that 42% are against raising the debt ceiling vs. 22% for it.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,131 #147 July 20, 2011 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuote Both parties have in recent months been guilty of fiscal recklessness. Right now, though, the blame falls clearly on the Republicans. Independent voters should take note. =============================== Poll this morning showed 43% of voters approving of Obama's position and 21% approving of the GOP position. link? CBS news poll, (link), talking about Obama's handling of the situation, not opinion for/against the debt ceiling raise. You'll note how careful he was to NOT mention that 48% DISAPPROVE of Obama's handling. . Didn't mention how many DISAPPROVE of the Republican handling either.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mdrejhon 8 #148 July 20, 2011 QuoteDidn't mention how many DISAPPROVE of the Republican handling either.Did they let people vote on disapproving BOTH parties' handling? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 3,096 #149 July 20, 2011 >Didn't mention how many DISAPPROVE of the Republican handling either. Sure, 68% disapprove of the job Republicans are doing on the deficit. But doesn't that mean that 68% of people approve of the job they're NOT doing? Think about it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 Next Page 6 of 6 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. 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popsjumper 2 #133 July 18, 2011 Quote LOL! Andy, the mouse thing wasn't meant as a dig at you or a reference to lack of spine, etc. OK...I can let me hackles down now. Quote As far as the mice writing in a candidate.., when was the last time a write in won a presidential election? Uh.....gimme a minute.... My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #134 July 18, 2011 QuoteAll these economic problems are a sideshow distraction to keep your mind off what is really coming around the sun in the not to distant future. I can certainly agree with that! We are just about to get hit by a bus and we don't even see it coming.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,096 #135 July 18, 2011 >I will remember this statement because i do not believe the economy >will return "as it always has".. Towards the end of the Bush presidency, we were clearly entering a recession - but right wing posters here denied it with all their might. "It's a bad day to be crying the R word!" one poster here proclaimed. Now that Obama is in office, right wing posters post doom and gloom daily to try to justify their attacks on Obama. Every time there is a sign the economy is starting to recover they deny it and repeat the doom and gloom message, hoping that the recession lasts long enough to fuel their attacks on Obama. But have no fear. Someday there will be a republican president again, and at that point you can go back to proclaiming how great the economy is, and attacking anyone who says that it has problems. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #136 July 18, 2011 Quote >I will remember this statement because i do not believe the economy >will return "as it always has".. Towards the end of the Bush presidency, we were clearly entering a recession - but right wing posters here denied it with all their might. "It's a bad day to be crying the R word!" one poster here proclaimed. Now that Obama is in office, right wing posters post doom and gloom daily to try to justify their attacks on Obama. Every time there is a sign the economy is starting to recover they deny it and repeat the doom and gloom message, hoping that the recession lasts long enough to fuel their attacks on Obama. But have no fear. Someday there will be a republican president again, and at that point you can go back to proclaiming how great the economy is, and attacking anyone who says that it has problems. That's right, the recession started when Democrats took over the house after the 2006 elections. I can tell you, I sold every paper investment I had at that time and bought gold. Smartest thing I ever did because I knew they would destroy the economy. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,096 #137 July 18, 2011 >That's right, the recession started when Democrats took over the >house after the 2006 elections. Hmm . . . ==================== Gawain Apr 30, 2008, 6:17 PM Post #1 of 116 (683 views) Must be a Tough Day to be Crying the "R" word... With all the liberal psyching into a "recession"...which means there have been two-consecutive-quarters of contraction in the GDP...we haven't even had one yet. Now, was the 1Q08 a roaring expansion? At 0.6%, certainly not. Consumer spending was up 1% and energy and food prices are clear issues that need to be monitored carefully. Either way, it must be tough to be a liberal who's been crying "R" for a while...the doom and gloom is near... ===================== Does this mean that you're now a . . . . doom and gloom liberal? O the humanity! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
devildog 0 #138 July 18, 2011 Quote Quote >I will remember this statement because i do not believe the economy >will return "as it always has".. Towards the end of the Bush presidency, we were clearly entering a recession - but right wing posters here denied it with all their might. "It's a bad day to be crying the R word!" one poster here proclaimed. Now that Obama is in office, right wing posters post doom and gloom daily to try to justify their attacks on Obama. Every time there is a sign the economy is starting to recover they deny it and repeat the doom and gloom message, hoping that the recession lasts long enough to fuel their attacks on Obama. But have no fear. Someday there will be a republican president again, and at that point you can go back to proclaiming how great the economy is, and attacking anyone who says that it has problems. That's right, the recession started when Democrats took over the house after the 2006 elections. I can tell you, I sold every paper investment I had at that time and bought gold. Smartest thing I ever did because I knew they would destroy the economy. I bought more stocks in the crash and they've done far better than gold could ever have dreamed. Ford was at a dollar a share, had a 52 week high of 18.97 (currently 12.70). Apple went from 80 something to 340ish. Siris was down .06 and is now 2.20 or so, etc. Besides, in Armageddon, ammo will be worth more than gold :)You stop breathing for a few minutes and everyone jumps to conclusions. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,096 #139 July 18, 2011 >Not raising the debt ceiling is a silly place to make a stand on budgetary issues. Agreed. From the Economist: ========================= America's debt Shame on them The Republicans are playing a cynical political game with hugely high economic stakes Jul 7th 2011 IN THREE weeks, if there is no political deal, the American government will go into default. Not, one must pray, on its sovereign debt. But the country will have to stop paying someone: perhaps pensioners, or government suppliers, or soldiers. That would be damaging enough at a time of economic fragility. And the longer such a default went on, the greater the risk of provoking a genuine bond crisis would become. There is no good economic reason why this should be happening. America’s net indebtedness is a perfectly affordable 65% of GDP, and throughout the past three years of recession and tepid recovery investors have been more than happy to go on lending to the federal government. The current problems, rather, are political. Under America’s elaborate separation of powers, Congress must authorise any extension of the debt ceiling, which now stands at $14.3 trillion. Back in May the government bumped up against that limit, but various accounting dodges have been used to keep funds flowing. It is now reckoned that these wheezes will be exhausted by August 2nd. The House of Representatives, under Republican control as a result of last November’s mid-term elections, has balked at passing the necessary bill. That is perfectly reasonable: until recently the Republicans had been exercising their clear electoral mandate to hold the government of Barack Obama to account, insisting that they will not permit a higher debt ceiling until agreement is reached on wrenching cuts to public spending. Until they started to play hardball in this way, Mr Obama had been deplorably insouciant about the medium-term picture, repeatedly failing in his budgets and his state-of-the-union speeches to offer any path to a sustainable deficit. Under heavy Republican pressure, he has been forced to rethink. Now, however, the Republicans are pushing things too far. Talks with the administration ground to a halt last month, despite an offer from the Democrats to cut at least $2 trillion and possibly much more out of the budget over the next ten years. Assuming that the recovery continues, that would be enough to get the deficit back to a prudent level. As The Economist went to press, Mr Obama seemed set to restart the talks. The sticking-point is not on the spending side. It is because the vast majority of Republicans, driven on by the wilder-eyed members of their party and the cacophony of conservative media, are clinging to the position that not a single cent of deficit reduction must come from a higher tax take. This is economically illiterate and disgracefully cynical. This newspaper has a strong dislike of big government; we have long argued that the main way to right America’s finances is through spending cuts. But you cannot get there without any tax rises. In Britain, for instance, the coalition government aims to tame its deficit with a 3:1 ratio of cuts to hikes. America’s tax take is at its lowest level for decades: even Ronald Reagan raised taxes when he needed to do so. And the closer you look, the more unprincipled the Republicans look. Earlier this year House Republicans produced a report noting that an 85%-15% split between spending cuts and tax rises was the average for successful fiscal consolidations, according to historical evidence. The White House is offering an 83%-17% split (hardly a huge distance) and a promise that none of the revenue increase will come from higher marginal rates, only from eliminating loopholes. If the Republicans were real tax reformers, they would seize this offer. Both parties have in recent months been guilty of fiscal recklessness. Right now, though, the blame falls clearly on the Republicans. Independent voters should take note. =============================== Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,131 #140 July 18, 2011 Quote Both parties have in recent months been guilty of fiscal recklessness. Right now, though, the blame falls clearly on the Republicans. Independent voters should take note. =============================== Poll this morning showed 43% of voters approving of Obama's position and 21% approving of the GOP position.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
devildog 0 #141 July 18, 2011 Quote Both parties have in recent months been guilty of fiscal recklessness. Right now, though, the blame falls clearly on the Republicans. Independent voters should take note. ============================== This is nonsense. The republicans have 1 portion of the govt, the house, and even that only recently. The dems have had both the Senate and the House since 06 (till 10) and for two years, they could have done whatever they wanted if they had the magic fix to everything (and the evil repubs were just stopping them). And just to quote a recent Rubio statement, "OK, so where’s the plan? Where’s the president’s plan? I’ve never seen a piece of paper with the president’s name on it that’s his plan to solve this crisis. I’ve seen press conferences. I’ve seen lectures that he’s given to the Congress. I’ve seen these press avails where the camera comes in and takes a bunch of pictures. I haven’t seen a plan. Where is the president’s plan?" Lastly, independents are taking note, and they're moving away from Obama and friends. All the polls show it.You stop breathing for a few minutes and everyone jumps to conclusions. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
devildog 0 #142 July 18, 2011 QuoteQuote Both parties have in recent months been guilty of fiscal recklessness. Right now, though, the blame falls clearly on the Republicans. Independent voters should take note. =============================== Poll this morning showed 43% of voters approving of Obama's position and 21% approving of the GOP position. link?You stop breathing for a few minutes and everyone jumps to conclusions. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #143 July 18, 2011 QuoteQuote Both parties have in recent months been guilty of fiscal recklessness. Right now, though, the blame falls clearly on the Republicans. Independent voters should take note. =============================== Poll this morning showed 43% of voters approving of Obama's position and 21% approving of the GOP position. Really?? Other than "we need to raise taxes on the wealthy" what is Obamas position? Have you seen his budget proposal? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,096 #144 July 18, 2011 >The republicans have 1 portion of the govt, the house, and even that only recently. Right. So both sides have to work together to solve this problem. McConnell and Reid have started to do just that; let's hope this continues. >And just to quote a recent Rubio statement, "OK, so where’s the plan? >Where’s the president’s plan?" =============================== Obama Plan Aims For $4 Trillion In Deficit Cuts By Liz Halloran, NPR April 13, 2011 President Obama, under increasing pressure to address the nation's burgeoning debt, on Wednesday laid out a sweeping vision to cut government deficits by more than $4 trillion in 12 years through tax increases and spending cuts phased in over time. In a speech at George Washington University in the nation's capital, Obama melded his progressive campaign rhetoric with presidential policy, rejecting Republican plans to remake Medicare and Medicare and proposing a mechanism that would trigger across-the-board spending cuts and tax increases if Congress fails to meet deficit-reduction targets. And he said he's asked Vice President Biden to meet with congressional leaders to come up with a bipartisan deficit-reduction plan by June, about the time Congress will be asked to raise the government's $14.3 trillion debt ceiling. "I know there are Republicans and Democrats in Congress who want to see a balanced approach to deficit reduction," Obama said. Obama's proposals hewed closely, but not perfectly, with recommendations made months ago by his bipartisan deficit reduction commission but never acted on. ================= Spending cuts: Cut non-security spending over the next decade in a manner recommended by his debt commission. The commission set 2012 non-security spending at 2011 levels, and by 2020, would allocate only slightly more than the 2012 amount. Obama estimates that his proposal would save an additional $200 billion over the $400 billion five-year freeze in non-security discretionary spending he proposed in his 2012 budget request. (The voters are ready for debt reduction. Is Washington) He also is calling for growth in base security spending to remain below inflation, which the White House estimates would save $400 billion over the next 12 years. That's less in savings than his debt commission achieved. ================= Tax changes: . . . expiration of the Bush-era tax cuts for the wealthy. He approved their two-year extension last December to ensure other provisions were maintained to protect the middle class, he said. But, he added, "I refuse to renew them again." He may not be faced with such a choice again because he also proposed a future in which those tax cuts would be irrelevant for everyone. He lent his support to the idea of reforming the individual tax code in a way that reduces tax breaks in order to pay for the cost of lowering tax rates and reducing the deficit. A White House fact sheet stressed that the new code would have to be "simpler, fairer and not rigged in favor of those who can afford lawyers and accountants to game it." ================== None of the above should come as surprises as they all came out of the bipartisan debt committee report. So if your question is really "what are the options?" here are a few: ======================== The Biden group, headed by Vice President Joe Biden and included House Majority Leader Eric Cantor (R., Va.), produced a plan to cut projected budget deficits by $2 trillion over ten years. It included cuts in Medicaid, raising Medicaid premiums for the wealthy, raising contributions that federal employees must make towards their pensions, cutting farm subsidies, and cuts in the budgets of most federal agencies including the military. Cantor pulled out of the negotiations over proposed tax revenue increases in the plan. Cantor has since risen as the major spokesman for the Tea Party conservatives among House Republicans. ======================= House Speaker John A Boehner (R-Ohio) teamed up with President Obama to propose what has been referred to as a “grand bargain.” It would cut projected budget deficits by double the amount proposed in the Biden group plan. Discussions on cuts in that plan included an increase in the Medicare eligibility age from 65 to 67 and a decrease in future Social Security Benefits. This plan has run into stiff opposition from conservative House Republicans over provisions in the plan to raise tax revenues, including ending oil and gas industry subsidies, raising taxes on hedge funds, and increasing taxes on higher incomes. It also generated opposition from liberal Democrats oppossed to cuts in Social Security, and to some extent the cuts to Medicare. ========================= The third plan on the table is essentially a stop gap to get us through the 2012 election. It has been proposed by Senate Republican leader Mitch McConnell (Ky.). Under this plan, Congress would grant President Obama authority to raise the debt ceiling and authorize new government borrowing by $2.5 trillion. But the President would need to do it in three installments, each time coming back to allow Congress to vote on a non-binding resolution that would express Congress’ dissaproval. In negotioations with Senate majority leader Harry M. Reid (D-Nev.), $1.5 trillion in cuts to government agency budgets have been addedd to the plan, and it would include the formation of a bipartisan committee charged with coming up with a longer term deficit reduction plan. ========================= >Lastly, independents are taking note, and they're moving away >from Obama and friends. All the polls show it. You may have inadvertently looked at a FOX report or something: ===================== July 18, 2011 7:04 AM Poll: 71% shun GOP handling of debt crisis Tucker Reals Americans are unimpressed with their political leaders' handling of the debt ceiling crisis, with a new CBS News poll showing a majority disapprove of all the involved parties' conduct, but Republicans in Congress fare the worst, with just 21 percent backing their resistance to raising taxes. President Obama earned the most generous approval ratings for his handling of the weeks-old negotiations, but still more people said they disapproved (48 percent) than approved (43 percent) of what he has done and said. ================== Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bolas 5 #145 July 18, 2011 Quote In a speech at George Washington University in the nation's capital, Obama melded his progressive campaign rhetoric with presidential policy, rejecting Republican plans to remake Medicare and Medicare and proposing a mechanism that would trigger across-the-board spending cuts and tax increases if Congress fails to meet deficit-reduction targets. I thought the Repubs were just dragging their heels, but if no actually budget plan has been given to them, they're doing what's needed. It's the Obamacare, "How are we going to pay for it" vs. "They won't pass the bill" all over again. Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #146 July 19, 2011 QuoteQuoteQuote Both parties have in recent months been guilty of fiscal recklessness. Right now, though, the blame falls clearly on the Republicans. Independent voters should take note. =============================== Poll this morning showed 43% of voters approving of Obama's position and 21% approving of the GOP position. link? CBS news poll, (link), talking about Obama's handling of the situation, not opinion for/against the debt ceiling raise. You'll note how careful he was to NOT mention that 48% DISAPPROVE of Obama's handling. Also carefully not mentioned in the article is another poll (Gallup), from 10-12 July. That's the one that says that 42% are against raising the debt ceiling vs. 22% for it.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,131 #147 July 20, 2011 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuote Both parties have in recent months been guilty of fiscal recklessness. Right now, though, the blame falls clearly on the Republicans. Independent voters should take note. =============================== Poll this morning showed 43% of voters approving of Obama's position and 21% approving of the GOP position. link? CBS news poll, (link), talking about Obama's handling of the situation, not opinion for/against the debt ceiling raise. You'll note how careful he was to NOT mention that 48% DISAPPROVE of Obama's handling. . Didn't mention how many DISAPPROVE of the Republican handling either.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mdrejhon 8 #148 July 20, 2011 QuoteDidn't mention how many DISAPPROVE of the Republican handling either.Did they let people vote on disapproving BOTH parties' handling? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,096 #149 July 20, 2011 >Didn't mention how many DISAPPROVE of the Republican handling either. Sure, 68% disapprove of the job Republicans are doing on the deficit. But doesn't that mean that 68% of people approve of the job they're NOT doing? Think about it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
