If the Top 25 Hedge Fund Managers Paid Taxes Like You and Me, We'd Cut 44 Billion of the National Deficit

[livendive 8]

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Also note the insignificance of $44 billion when deficits are, oh, one thousand three hundred billion dollars.

If you were in the market for a new AAD, would $44 help out? 44 *cents* might be insignificant, but $44B is 3.5% of $1.3T...a small but significant dent.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[dreamdancer 0]

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We need a flat tax but the liberals want to rob the rich so we won't have it...

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how about a flat tax of 90% on anyone with wealth over $1,000,000

You both realize that both these ideas are idiotic, right?

you cut out my

stay away from moving propellers - they bite
blue skies from thai sky adventures
good solid response-provoking keyboarding

[Bolas 5]

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Also note the insignificance of $44 billion when deficits are, oh, one thousand three hundred billion dollars.

If you were in the market for a new AAD, would $44 help out? 44 *cents* might be insignificant, but $44B is 3.5% of $1.3T...a small but significant dent.

Blues,
Dave

But unless the attitudes change that extra $44B in revenue would likely be used to justify $60B or more worth of new programs or expansions of existing ones.

Hell, congress tried to spend the leftover and paid back TARP money.

There has to be a mindset change to paying down the debt and big budget cuts BEFORE they raise taxes.

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[rehmwa 2]

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There has to be a mindset change to paying down the debt and big budget cuts BEFORE they raise taxes.

this is the most obvious thing 'they' purposely ignore

+10


in fact, they think the only evidence of that mindset change = raising taxes (but only on those people they hate, not the others)

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[livendive 8]

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There has to be a mindset change to paying down the debt and big budget cuts BEFORE they raise taxes.

I disagree, because like communism, it sounds kinda nice on paper but will not work in real life. It's a disingenious "you first" argument from the GOP, to be followed by "Meh, your sacred cow was good enough, let our's live". Remember, these are the same people who don't consider a tax break "spending", but do consider the removal of that break a tax "hike".

There needs to be some serious concessions on both sides of the deficit, and it ought to hurt the the rich, poor, and middle class somewhat equally. Massively simplify the tax code, primarily by eliminating loopholes that allow corporations/individuals to declare their income to be tax exempt. Also reduce welfare benefits substantially (again, to individuals AND industry). Cut defense spending to, say, the combined total of our 5 biggest national security threats, and road construction to only those highways that are necessary for trade between major economic hubs...let the states handle smaller stuff. Stop paying the poor to have more babies, stop giving tax breaks to those who pay them for having more babies. We've been screwing up our economy since World War 1, and it's been spiralling out of control for the last 30 years. It's time to admit our mistakes, face the reality of the situation, take a second job, eat some top ramen, and fix this. To say "let the poor tighten their belts first" is simply unrealistic, and unfair. All of us have been eating at this buffet, and we all need to do our share of the dishes to cover the tab.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[rehmwa 2]

Vote Livendive '12

"yeah, what he said"


(you're in sync here - increasing revenue by eliminating special breaks and simplifying the tax code, making EVERYONE pay taxes - are all in the same category - "Tax to pay for necessities and not for social reconstruction" (which I think is the real message of the whole "cut spending" crowd)

the rest of that was cutting - dramatically

you got my vote

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Bolas 5]

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I disagree, because like communism, it sounds kinda nice on paper but will not work in real life. It's a disingenious "you first" argument from the GOP, to be followed by "Meh, your sacred cow was good enough, let our's live". Remember, these are the same people who don't consider a tax break "spending", but do consider the removal of that break a tax "hike".

And Congress currently looks at any additional income as justification to spend even more.

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To say "let the poor tighten their belts first" is simply unrealistic, and unfair.

Who said anything about targeting one group? We all need to be effected by both the cuts AND the tax increases that follow.

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All of us have been eating at this buffet, and we all need to do our share of the dishes to cover the tab.

Blues,
Dave

True but also need to make sure some aren't still ordering more. Some "dining and dashing" is bound to happen, but at least they won't be exacerbating the problem.

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[billvon 3,119]

>There needs to be some serious concessions on both sides of the deficit

Absolutely. We have to raise taxes AND decrease spending significantly if we are to have any hope of dealing with our current deficit.

>To say "let the poor tighten their belts first" is simply unrealistic, and
>unfair.

Also agreed.

> All of us have been eating at this buffet, and we all need to do our share
>of the dishes to cover the tab.

Yep. The poor get an awful lot of services; the rich get the infrastructure support that let them get rich in the first place. Raising every tax bracket by a percentage wouldn't hit the very poor unfairly (they are paying next to nothing as it is) while letting us get out of this hole.

[airdvr 210]

Too many pigs not enough tits

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[billvon 3,119]

>Too many pigs not enough tits

Solution: fewer pigs, more tits. (And I dare you to argue with that!)

[airdvr 210]

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>Too many pigs not enough tits

Solution: fewer pigs

FIFY

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[rehmwa 2]

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>There needs to be some serious concessions on both sides of the deficit

Absolutely. We have to raise taxes AND decrease spending significantly if we are to have any hope of dealing with our current deficit.

that's great in your ideal world, but Bolas has it right.
Currently, raising 1M$ in taxes will just create 1.5M$ in more spending programs. THAT is what needs to be fixed first.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[shah269 0]

My favorite argument thus far regarding increasing taxes on the top 5% is that these "talented" individuals will leave the country......yeah right!
We have the lowest taxes on the planet with the highest security.
Unlike say Russia where if you were worth a few million you could be killed at any given time here you can life the high life paying well under 30% taxes on your income and even less if your income comes from selling stocks.
Sorry boys, you can get into a pissing match all you want but both sides know exactly who butters their bread and I'll give you a little hint, it's not the average Joe or Jane. It's the guy willing ready and able to write a check for $100k for a political cause.
And now that companies can write unlimited checks for anyone....well....how can I say this?
The rich will get richer, the poor will die off and the middle class? Well all I have to say is thank god I know how to speak Spanish!
And before you get ready to spin.
The federal government has about 2.5 million people on its pay roll. As of January the federal government cut their pay increases and potential for promotion for the next 2 to 5 years to save the tax break for the top 5%.
So who do you think will grow the economy and help out of this mess? 2.5 million middle class federal employees? Or the top 5%?
Think about it.

Life through good thoughts, good words, and good deeds is necessary to ensure happiness and to keep chaos at bay.

The only thing that falls from the sky is birdshit and fools!

[kallend 2,150]

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There has to be a mindset change to paying down the debt and big budget cuts BEFORE they raise taxes.

I disagree, because like communism, it sounds kinda nice on paper but will not work in real life. It's a disingenious "you first" argument from the GOP, to be followed by "Meh, your sacred cow was good enough, let our's live". Remember, these are the same people who don't consider a tax break "spending", but do consider the removal of that break a tax "hike".

There needs to be some serious concessions on both sides of the deficit, and it ought to hurt the the rich, poor, and middle class somewhat equally. Massively simplify the tax code, primarily by eliminating loopholes that allow corporations/individuals to declare their income to be tax exempt. Also reduce welfare benefits substantially (again, to individuals AND industry). Cut defense spending to, say, the combined total of our 5 biggest national security threats, and road construction to only those highways that are necessary for trade between major economic hubs...let the states handle smaller stuff. Stop paying the poor to have more babies, stop giving tax breaks to those who pay them for having more babies. We've been screwing up our economy since World War 1, and it's been spiralling out of control for the last 30 years. It's time to admit our mistakes, face the reality of the situation, take a second job, eat some top ramen, and fix this. To say "let the poor tighten their belts first" is simply unrealistic, and unfair. All of us have been eating at this buffet, and we all need to do our share of the dishes to cover the tab.

Blues,
Dave

When they finish cleaning all the crap out of the budget I'll be willing to discuss giving up more of my income. Not before. .

So are you one of the top 25 hedge fund managers that this thread is about? Or are you one of the middle class that's getting screwed by the super wealthy having preferential tax treatment?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[mnealtx 0]

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My favorite argument thus far regarding increasing taxes on the top 5% is that these "talented" individuals will leave the country......yeah right!

They did in England, Maryland and New Jersey.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[weekender 0]

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There has to be a mindset change to paying down the debt and big budget cuts BEFORE they raise taxes.

I disagree, because like communism, it sounds kinda nice on paper but will not work in real life. It's a disingenious "you first" argument from the GOP, to be followed by "Meh, your sacred cow was good enough, let our's live". Remember, these are the same people who don't consider a tax break "spending", but do consider the removal of that break a tax "hike".

There needs to be some serious concessions on both sides of the deficit, and it ought to hurt the the rich, poor, and middle class somewhat equally. Massively simplify the tax code, primarily by eliminating loopholes that allow corporations/individuals to declare their income to be tax exempt. Also reduce welfare benefits substantially (again, to individuals AND industry). Cut defense spending to, say, the combined total of our 5 biggest national security threats, and road construction to only those highways that are necessary for trade between major economic hubs...let the states handle smaller stuff. Stop paying the poor to have more babies, stop giving tax breaks to those who pay them for having more babies. We've been screwing up our economy since World War 1, and it's been spiralling out of control for the last 30 years. It's time to admit our mistakes, face the reality of the situation, take a second job, eat some top ramen, and fix this. To say "let the poor tighten their belts first" is simply unrealistic, and unfair. All of us have been eating at this buffet, and we all need to do our share of the dishes to cover the tab.

Blues,
Dave

When they finish cleaning all the crap out of the budget I'll be willing to discuss giving up more of my income. Not before. .

So are you one of the top 25 hedge fund managers that this thread is about? Or are you one of the middle class that's getting screwed by the super wealthy having preferential tax treatment?

You dont have to be a hedgfrund manager to benefit from the tax treatment. what about all the employees that work there? What about all the people who benefit from their employement? people who own business's that those employees grace? or the banks that provide research and execution for the fund. Not to mention all the back office people that clear the trades. mail room guys, door man, coffee guy.... list goes on.

None of them are rich and all benefit from the hedgefund industries growth.

"The point is, I'm weird, but I never felt weird."
John Frusciante

[livendive 8]

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>There needs to be some serious concessions on both sides of the deficit

Absolutely. We have to raise taxes AND decrease spending significantly if we are to have any hope of dealing with our current deficit.

that's great in your ideal world, but Bolas has it right.
Currently, raising 1M$ in taxes will just create 1.5M$ in more spending programs. THAT is what needs to be fixed first.

The concern that you and Bolas are stating is that an increase in taxes will not be followed by a decrease in spending. I wholeheartedly agree. What Billvon and I are *also* saying is that a decrease in spending will not be followed by an increase in taxes. Our government has two seperate but related problems:

1) not generating enough revenue to cover its...
2) excessive spending.

Our politicians have aligned themselves in approximately equal proportions against one problem or the other, and neither of those groups of politicians should be trusted to change their tune, as it will cost them votes. Remember when Bush Sr's "no new taxes" policy got a closer look at the post-Reagan books? "Ooops, uh, what I really meant was..." So, given that we can't trust either of these groups to make significant spending cuts or tax reforms without substantial concessions from the other, the only logical choice is to make them both happen at the same time. If Obama is offering 6:1 cuts to tax "increases", a respectable House should take that in good faith. However, I would also like to see substantial legislation put in place governing how the income:expenditures should relate to each other in the future. In fact, I think this might be a good time to consider a constitutional amendment related to management of the public debt.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[billvon 3,119]

>Currently, raising 1M$ in taxes will just create 1.5M$ in more spending programs.

Well, that wouldn't be raising taxes and decreasing spending, now, would it?

[billvon 3,119]

>FIFY

Never thought I'd see the day on Speaker's Corner where people opposed more tits.

[rehmwa 2]

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The concern that you and Bolas are stating is that an increase in taxes will not be followed by a decrease in spending.

my concern is much worse - an increase in taxes is always followed by a BIGGER increase in spending than the additional revenue taken in

not flat, never a decrease in spending


so we need to fix that problem first - then I'm all for doing both actions to dig us out of the hole, and taxing EVERYBODY, and taking away all the subsidies, penalties, loopholes, etc

taxes should pay for the minimum required, and hot have any social experimentation involved either - minimum taxes (but enough to pay down our debt over time) and minimum expenses - not the max/max of today's world

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[billvon 3,119]

>so we need to fix that problem first

And this, ladies and gentlemen, is why neither side will ever be willing to fix the problem.

[rehmwa 2]

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>Currently, raising 1M$ in taxes will just create 1.5M$ in more spending programs.

Well, that wouldn't be raising taxes and decreasing spending, now, would it?

As I said in the part you didn't quote - I agree you, except I don't trust our current spending habits to fulfill both sides of the deal.

so - they've demonstrated they are willing to always increase taxes, they need to demonstrate the other side of the coin (and, yes, it is a 'you first' position) else handing congress more tax revenue is like handing a drowning man a bag of lead

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[rehmwa 2]

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>so we need to fix that problem first

And this, ladies and gentlemen, is why neither side will ever be willing to fix the problem.

what problem? they know how to increase taxes, but it's worthless to increase revenue X amount if it always results in a spending increase of X+


and still - which 'sides' are you talking about? Let 'them' put a budget out that has spending levels at a much REDUCED level than the last few years, AND a tax increase for everyone and we have something. But all we hear is tax these guys, or those guys, more - but without any reductions in expenses....

The budget problem can only be fixed with less spending and more revenue. HOWEVER, today's issue is that the 'revenue' aspect of the solution creates a bigger spending problem than it fixes. Fix that, then we can bring both solutions to bear effectively.

or, just keep digging

Bolas has it right:

1 - reduce spending - drastically simplify the list of what we spend on. and then take that list and cut it more

2 - increase revenue - by simplifying the tax code - no more freebies for the 42% that don't pay anything - no more freebies for the super rich that bought themselves sweet tax arrangements to get off so easy. no penalties, not subsidies, nothing. keep it simple and take away everyone's breaks.

see, I agree with billvon too. but to get there we need assurances

more tits for everyone

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Bolas 5]

If such a single bill or budget were created that cut spending and raised taxes within it, I'd be for that.

Is that even possible?

The first step by all (politicians and the voters) needs to be a mindest change from spend to pay down.

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[rehmwa 2]

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If such a single bill or budget were created that cut spending and raised taxes within it, I'd be for that.

Is that even possible?

The first step by all (politicians and the voters) needs to be a mindest change from spend to pay down.

I don't see why this is such a bone of contention by these guys - seems pretty obvious.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants