Working for free? The new slavery?

[kallend 2,150]

Quote

Well, let's look at taxes. If you start at Jan. 1, in effect, the average American works until May until he or she gets to keep earnings.

Everyone who pays taxes works for nothing. .

Really? I get to drive on public roads, sent my kids to public schools, get police and fire protection, defense of the country, ATC services, use of a public airport, access to a justice system, parks, museums, benefits from an infrastructure that supports economic activity, etc...

If you get absolutely nothing then I suspect you must be working very hard to manage that. Either that or you're yet another whiner.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Bolas 5]

Quote

>Barter is totally different. Were the DZO to expect you to pay for that rating . . .

?? I gave you an example where you work (i.e. jump with evaluators, help in classroom instruction, help train advanced students) for free in hopes of someday getting a paying job; the DZO may also be hoping you work for them.

The example Shah gave was of someone who works (i.e. helps with day to day business, gets to know how the company works) for free in hopes of someday getting a paying job; the company may also be hoping for a new employee.

Why does the kind of job make a difference?

In your hypothetical DZ situation above, does the person have to pay for their slot when jumping with evaluators? Do they pay for the evaluators slots and/or coaching on those jumps?

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[billvon 3,119]

>In your hypothetical DZ situation above, does the person have to pay for their slot
>when jumping with evaluators?

Nope, no more than an intern has to pay for parking, using the elevator or getting food at meetings.

(Unless, of course, you know of a place that uses unpaid interns, charges them for parking, charges them for use of the elevators and excludes them from meeting food.)

[Bolas 5]

Quote

>In your hypothetical DZ situation above, does the person have to pay for their slot
>when jumping with evaluators?

Nope, no more than an intern has to pay for parking, using the elevator or getting food at meetings.

(Unless, of course, you know of a place that uses unpaid interns, charges them for parking, charges them for use of the elevators and excludes them from meeting food.)

Considering that's not where the company makes it money it's entirely different as they are not providing the intern anything thst they don't provide to their employees they actually pay.

Dropzones sell slots on airplanes to customers. Every slot they give to an "intern" in exchange for services is a direct cost to them as that's one less they could sell or use for a tandem/student jump.

Most DZs that i have seen that let people work off their training, gear, etc. set an ammount a task or per hour rate that in lieu of direct pay, pays off their "debt."

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[billvon 3,119]

>Considering that's not where the company makes it money it's entirely different as
>they are not providing the intern anything thst they don't provide to their employees
>they actually pay.

That works as well - DZ's provide working AFF-JM's with "free" jumps, too. So in that way the two cases are similar as well.

>Dropzones sell slots on airplanes to customers. Every slot they give to an "intern" in
>exchange for services is a direct cost to them as that's one less they could sell or use
>for a tandem/student jump.

Yep. And they give their interns parking spots and food they could be either a) saving money by not offering or b) giving to someone else who works there.

Now, you're going to argue "but I LIKE jumping so it's like getting paid!" That's great! Getting jumps but not getting paid might be a great deal for you. And getting experience (or contacts, or training, or even free food and a parking space in the city, might be worth it to other people.

Or not, in which case they should get a different job. Their choice.

[Bolas 5]

Quote

Now, you're going to argue "but I LIKE jumping so it's like getting paid!" That's great! Getting jumps but not getting paid might be a great deal for you. And getting experience (or contacts, or training, or even free food and a parking space in the city, might be worth it to other people.

Or not, in which case they should get a different job. Their choice.

I was not going to mention that as if one likes the job is not really relavant accept when it comes to the employers ability to take advantage of them, especially in always popular fields.

Company A: "Work for us for free. You'll get some experience, maybe be able to network and we may hire you or you may be able to get another job."

Company B: "We'll train you and provide the items you need to do the job if you don't already have them. While training you will do (task list). Once fully trained you will work for (x hours/x assignments) at (y rate) until your training/items debt is paid off.

Company A is an internship. Company B is more alkin to an apprenticeship, which is the model most DZs offering labor for training/jumps/items exchange which is far more fair to the worker.

I do agree that if one does not think it's fair they can not do the internship, but in some fields it may be only way to get into them. This is something someone should factor into their decision on what career they want hopefully before pursuing the required education.

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[shah269 0]

The job of any Project Manager is to bring the project in on time and under budget.
One of the main constraints to this are finite time and personnel.

However with the ability to offer the hungry masses a "free internship" and giving the false hope that maybe these masses will network and maybe one day land a job that paid as a Project Manager personnel and personnel costs are no longer relevant.

And please don't think that this only applies to kids who have just graduated. More and more I'm seeing and hiring about offers of people who have MBA's and years of experience being offered these "amazing gigs with no pay" at world renowned non for profit organizations or worse...fortune 500 companies.

Now with this availability to this "free" labor pool....any project can come in under beget. Once the project is done, let the free worker go. You never signed a contract nor promised them a darn thing other than "experience"

And I as the project manager will not only get a nice pay increase but will be further secure in my job for I have demonstrated value to the company.

You the free worker....if you are smart you will have realized that you were just used. If you are very smart and very lucky you may have made a contact or two but odds are those will not pan out. Why should the other person hire you, you have just demonstrated you are willing to work for free. And if not you than someone else will.

Welcome to the new normal. Your earning potential has significantly decreased, your taxes have gone up and well....good luck with that.

Life through good thoughts, good words, and good deeds is necessary to ensure happiness and to keep chaos at bay.

The only thing that falls from the sky is birdshit and fools!

[billvon 3,119]

>I do agree that if one does not think it's fair they can not do the internship, but in
>some fields it may be only way to get into them. This is something someone should
>factor into their decision on what career they want hopefully before pursuing the
>required education.

Agreed there.

[Belgian_Draft 0]

I'm still waiting for the documentation of your claim that working for free is illegal.

HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

[quade 4]

Quote

I'm still waiting for the documentation of your claim that working for free is illegal.

It depends on how one defines the terms.

It is illegal to use interns in leu of actual workers, at least in terms of the labor law definitions.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with volunteers where no quid pro quo is expected by either party, but use of the word intern does imply a quid pro quo and it's illegal to abuse that.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Belgian_Draft 0]

Quote

Quote

I'm still waiting for the documentation of your claim that working for free is illegal.

It depends on how one defines the terms.

It is illegal to use interns in leu of actual workers, at least in terms of the labor law definitions.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with volunteers where no quid pro quo is expected by either party, but use of the word intern does imply a qui pro quo and it's illegal to abuse that.

Right. Working without pay is only prohibited under a narrow set of circumstances and is intended to prevent unpaid interns from being deceived into doing work others are being paid to do.
That is a long, long way from shah's claim that working for free is illegal.

HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

[popsjumper 2]

Funny story:

As a young man, I was job hunting for anything and everything.
I came across and ad for a Paint and Body shop needing a masker...which I had done before. I went there and filled out an application.

The manager, said that I needed to prove myself by actually masking a car. I did so.

After finishing, he said I was too slow and he wouldn't hire me. (which was BS and I recognized his game)

So, I went out and started removing the tape and paper. He comes out and tried to stop me. After the fight was over, I finished the peeling and left after telling the next guy who showed up about the problem.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[Belgian_Draft 0]

Quote

Funny story:

As a young man, I was job hunting for anything and everything.
I came across and ad for a Paint and Body shop needing a masker...which I had done before. I went there and filled out an application.

The manager, said that I needed to prove myself by actually masking a car. I did so.

After finishing, he said I was too slow and he wouldn't hire me. (which was BS and I recognized his game)

So, I went out and started removing the tape and paper. He comes out and tried to stop me. After the fight was over, I finished the peeling and left after telling the next guy who showed up about the problem.

Bravo!

HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

[SivaGanesha 2]

Quote

From a purely financial / program manager point of view I would love this!

The manager in such situations needs to be careful. They can find themselves in a position where they have little leverage to actually insist that work get done.

I was a manager recently and the CEO insisted that I hire two people into unpaid positions. Neither arrangement worked out--they were just using us to pad their resumes, as I warned the CEO.

One was a summer student doing an internship. Fine, that type of arrangement CAN work--but in this case the guy not only had done PAID internships in the past, but he had another concurrent internship the SAME summer that was a paid internship. Guess which company got all of his energy? I'll give you a clue: it was the folks who were signing his paychecks.

The other was an older worker who was between jobs. He was just using us to pad his resume until he found paid work--which he did about a month into his "gig" with us. Then, of course, we were history. I'd invested a lot of my own time that month getting him up to speed and had nothing to show for that effort. Indeed--I think it damaged us, perhaps fatally, being an early stage startup.

The arrangement CAN work if you give them non-critical work, that doesn't take up much of the paid staff's time, that is used as a test of their abilities as much as anything. Eventually you have to them on the payroll, though, if it works out. Having unpaid staff doing mission critical work while they interview for paid positions is just playing with fire IMHO.

"It's hard to have fun at 4-way unless your whole team gets down to the ground safely to do it again!"--Northern California Skydiving League re USPA Safety Day, March 8, 2014

[quade 4]

Quote

I was a manager recently and the CEO insisted that I hire two people into unpaid positions. Neither arrangement worked out--they were just using us to pad their resumes, as I warned the CEO.

There used to be a saying that went something like, you get what you pay for.

The boss attempting to get free labor by abusing the "intern" concept is just as shady as the guys you say were only trying to "pad their resumés."

Further, in this day and age, why should any worker at any level show any loyalty to any company whether or not they're paid or not? Certainly companies don't return the favor and will cut a long time worker in an instant if the company thinks they can save a couple of dollars doing so.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Bolas 5]

Quote

Quote

I was a manager recently and the CEO insisted that I hire two people into unpaid positions. Neither arrangement worked out--they were just using us to pad their resumes, as I warned the CEO.

There used to be a saying that went something like, you get what you pay for.

The boss attempting to get free labor by abusing the "intern" concept is just as shady as the guys you say were only trying to "pad their resumés."

Further, in this day and age, why should any worker at any level show any loyalty to any company whether or not they're paid or not? Certainly companies don't return the favor and will cut a long time worker in an instant if the company thinks they can save a couple of dollars in the short term doing so.

Companies do surveys of employee satisfaction but generally they are just compared to the results of other companies and if found comparable...

A few years back they told us in a meeting that they were changing health plans because it was "out of touch" with what others were offering. When asked to clarify it was far better than what others offered.

Doesn't sound like a bad thing and could be used to recuit and retain...

You can't expect excellence and only provide mediocrity...

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[lawrocket 3]

>>>
I get to drive on public roads - fuel taxes. The more you use fuel the more taxes you pay to for it

>>>sent my kids to public schools - property taxes

>>>get police and fire protection - property taxes

>>>defense of the country - income taxes

>>>ATC services - income taxes, and taxes for landings, etc.

>>>use of a public airport - municipal taxes, county, state and federal taxes

>>>access to a justice system - county and state, mainly. Some federal. But you pay a filing fee for all of it unless you are a defendant who, if convicted, will pay court costs.

>>>parks - municipal - paid by local taxes. Unless federal, in which case you pay entry fees.

>>>museums - most have admission charges

>>benefits from an infrastructure that supports economic activity - yes, much private and public, but even these are degrading because there is no landmark for the "Mayor Daley Maintenance." Nope - new roads and buldings are named for the politician that funded it.

I'm mentioning, of course, all the taxes we pay. Ironically, most of these taxes are local and plenty are use taxes.

No, whining is not beneath me. Complaining is not beneath me. When something sucks I say it sucks.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[SivaGanesha 2]

Quote

Further, in this day and age, why should any worker at any level show any loyalty to any company whether or not they're paid or not?

It always takes time and energy to find a new job--and that time is never (directly) compensated. If an employee is being paid at or above market level wages, and is otherwise happy, there is no reason for them to make that investment of time and energy to find a new job.

Another way of putting it is that in today's day and age you win employee loyalty by keeping them happy on a day-to-day basis--not by making promises that won't be delivered (or, more likely, broken) until years in the future.

"It's hard to have fun at 4-way unless your whole team gets down to the ground safely to do it again!"--Northern California Skydiving League re USPA Safety Day, March 8, 2014

[Andy9o8 2]

Quote

When something sucks I say it sucks.

Internship are for students. Otherwise, it's just working for free. And that sucks.

[Belgian_Draft 0]

Quote

Further, in this day and age, why should any worker at any level show any loyalty to any company whether or not they're paid or not? Certainly companies don't return the favor and will cut a long time worker in an instant if the company thinks they can save a couple of dollars doing so.

Some companies actually do give a damn about their workers.
Lincoln

HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

[ManagingPrime 0]

Its free choice. The individuals making the decision have considered the cost benefit, if they had not they would be to stupid to even have their free services accepted.

For the last month I've been working 40+ hours a week in the local rigging loft. This "free" work will shortly result in my riggers ticket. Not only will I have my riggers ticket I will have more experience and all-round gear knowlede than many senior riggers who attended a rigging course to obtain their ticket.

I'm happy to be working for "free" as it's given me the oprotunity to make a career change. If it had not been for the oprotunity I would be in some bank office doing corporate schmuck work that I could no longer tolerate.

[Andy9o8 2]

Quote

Its free choice.

Which is beside the point. Step back from the canvas, and squint.

[ManagingPrime 0]

Quote

Quote

Its free choice.

Which is beside the point. Step back from the canvas, and squint.

I see the arguments being made... I just don't see the point of them. Is the argument that there are some cases where the "employer" is ethically wrong and additonally causing some harm to the economy as a whole? Ok. I don't see any solutions proposed. I'm assuming some might see a solution in additional laws and regulations or more stringent enforcement of laws already on the books. Fine... As long as that would not interfere with a free work for experience like my own which is quite beneficial to all parties involved.

[Belgian_Draft 0]

Quote

Quote

Its free choice.

Which is beside the point. Step back from the canvas, and squint.

Beside what point?

HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

[quade 4]

Quote

Quote

Quote

Its free choice.

Which is beside the point. Step back from the canvas, and squint.

Beside what point?

Google George Seurat.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver