City Demands Keys to All Commercial Properties

[JohnRich 4]

News:

Government demands keys to your kingdom

CEDAR FALLS, Iowa – The government of a Midwest college town is now requiring the city's businesses and apartment buildings to post their keys outside, so authorities can enter the properties "in case of emergency."

According to the Cedar Falls City Council, the plan to require property owners to post keys in designated lockboxes – that city officials can open with a master key – is a justified way to allow the fire department and other authorities access without breaking down doors, especially in cases of false alarms.

To many Cedar Falls citizens, however, giving the city keys to their businesses and homes is a gross violation of the Fourth Amendment's private property rights and a plan fraught with potential for abuse...

Full story: http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=310877

[quade 4]

Well, JR, I think you've posted something that just about everyone here can agree is a bad idea.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[skydiver30960 0]

So, for those not familiar, what they're describing is a Knox Box. This is a special, nearly bomb-proof box that a home or business owner would affix to the outside of the building, the interior of which is just large enough to hold a small number of keys. The idea is just what is mentioned here: that in a fire or medical emergency, firefighters (usually) or EMS providers (much less frequently) could use their proprietary key to open the Knox Box and get the keys to the property rather than spend the time forcing doors or climbing through windows.

As a (former, and hopefully someday once again) volunteer firefighter, I'm really familiar with Knox Boxes. They are immensely helpful to firefighters and EMS providers, which means it could save YOUR life. The potential for abuse of the system is extremely low.

If I owned a business, would I install a Knox Box? Yes, absolutely.

Once I own a home, will I install a Knox Box? Yes, if the circumstances of the structure mean anything more than a broken window to replace if access is needed by emergency personnel.

Am I in favor of a city REQUIRING their use? ...not such an easy sale.

Definitely a case of doing the wrong thing for the right reasons.

Elvisio "Knox Box Rocks!" Rodriguez

ETA: for the record I voted Bad Idea; based on the thread's intent, rather than the validity of the Knox Box itself.

[DougH 270]

Sorry I seriously doubt they are as secure as you say.

I could easily take a sledge hammer and knock those boxes off a building unless they are welded to a steel beam. Then I can pocket the sucker and take it some where else to break into at my own pace. A drill press or bandsaw would open that up like butter.

My bigger issue is that a key can open a lock, and crelock it later on, with no indication that entry occured. If the cops or fire fighters need in my place I when I am not there I don't care if they kick in the door. After my deductible the insurance will cover it.

Maybe my opinion would be different if had steel doors with quality locks and I was worried that they would have trouble getting in, but in my case it wouldn't take much to bust one of my doors down.

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[billvon 3,085]

>Sorry I seriously doubt they are as secure as you say.

They're not 100% secure. But if they are more secure than the doors they do not make the building _less_ secure.

>I could easily take a sledge hammer and knock those boxes off a building unless they
>are welded to a steel beam.

I could also take a sledge hammer and open any door in the place - unless, again, the owner goes to extreme measures to keep his door closed. (In which case, the need for firefighter access is even more pressing.)

[AggieDave 6]

Wow. You know, if there really is an emergency, I have a size 12EE that works like a champ.

What a bad idea!

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[skydiver30960 0]

Quote

Wow. You know, if there really is an emergency, I have a size 12EE that works like a champ.

What a bad idea!

But how many broken doors will a business owner tolerate due to a false fire alarm? Or constantly fielding "wellness" calls to check on grandma when the nearest family is hundreds of miles away and she isn't answering her phone? It's a sad fact that firefighters spend much more time responding to false alarms than they do real fires. If we kicked in a door or broke a window for every false alarm, it'd be a nightmare.

Dude, I totally agree with you WRT making them MANDATORY. But in your line of work don't you see firefighters using these things ALL the time?

ETA: I guess maybe it's a regional thing. But I would stress that this is far from "new" technology. These things are all over the place in the jurisdictions I've run fire and rescue in, and I've never heard of a theft coming down to a violated Knox Box. I talked to my partner who used to be a career firefighter and he said the same thing. Again, I highly recommend their use, but would not recommend mandating their use.

Elvisio "they're everywhere" Rodriguez

[DougH 270]

Quote

>Sorry I seriously doubt they are as secure as you say.

They're not 100% secure. But if they are more secure than the doors they do not make the building _less_ secure.

>I could easily take a sledge hammer and knock those boxes off a building unless they
>are welded to a steel beam.

I could also take a sledge hammer and open any door in the place - unless, again, the owner goes to extreme measures to keep his door closed. (In which case, the need for firefighter access is even more pressing.)

Of course you can take a sledge hammer to the door, that isn't my issue.

My issue is undetected entrance.

Hard to miss a smashed door frame or a busted window.

But how do you tell that your house was unlocked, entered, and then relocked if you had a key floating around out there. If you had an alarm or video monitoring you would know.

It is a moot point, the fire department should learn how to bump a lock. They can save money on the stupid boxes, and save door frames and homeowners deductible $$$!

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[TriGirl 336]

Quote

My issue is undetected entrance.

If you had an alarm or video monitoring you would know.

Maybe that's an idea for a new design. Lock boxes used by many realtors (as I understand them) keep a log of who uses them and when by way of a particular code. Not sure how it logs "who" uses it, if the same code is given out to other realtors, but that's why it's an idea for a NEW design. Each fire station & police station could have its own special code that works on all boxes (instead of a skeleton key), so at least the source of the code used to open the box can be tracked.

And yeah, I think it would be a good idea as an option. I think it would keep the liability down for the city rescue workers, too. If your store doesn't have a box, you can't sue the city for not saving more of your business' property in case of fire.

See the upside, and always wear your parachute! -- Christopher Titus

Shut Up & Jump!

[Gravitymaster 0]

Now that they have the key to your home, the next step is for a police officer to "observe" or "hear" something that gives him probable cause to search your home without getting one of those pesky warrants.

[firemedic 7]

My issue is undetected entrance.

Hard to miss a smashed door frame or a busted window.

But how do you tell that your house was unlocked, entered, and then relocked if you had a key floating around out there. If you had an alarm or video monitoring you would know.

The missing/busted up Knox Box and the Damage to the wall where it was secured would probably be a pretty good indication.

[billvon 3,085]

>the fire department should learn how to bump a lock. They can save money on the
>stupid boxes, and save door frames and homeowners deductible $$$!

I agree that there should be a way for firefighters to (relatively easily) open doors in an emergency. I think we're just talking about details - how to do it in a way that doesn't allow easy access to other people.

[mnealtx 0]

Quote

My issue is undetected entrance.

Quote

It is a moot point, the fire department should learn how to bump a lock.

You're sort of contradicting yourself here, aren't you?

A lock the firefighter can bump is a lock that the local criminal can bump.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[airtwardo 7]

Quote

Now that they have the key to your home, the next step is for a police officer to "observe" or "hear" something that gives him probable cause to search your home without getting one of those pesky warrants.

If it's describing the type of situation regarding apartments that the FD uses where I grew up...the knox box key is to allow entrance to the gated apartment complex...NOT any individual apartments.

There was a loss of life once when the FD couldn't get equipment through the security gate in a timely manner...I don't think the box would, should or could contain keys to every apartment is a given complex.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[rehmwa 2]

Quote

...the knox box key is to allow entrance to the apartment complex...NOT any individual apartments.

this seems ok, but I still don't see why that can't be the decision of the property owner(s) vs some local gov entity

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[airtwardo 7]

Quote

Quote

...the knox box key is to allow entrance to the apartment complex...NOT any individual apartments.

this seems ok, but I still don't see why that can't be the decision of the property owner(s) vs some local gov entity

Again, I don't know the specifics of the plan in the article...but where I grew up the FD charges the commercial business per call, and the rate is greatly reduced if the box is present...as well as the property owner receiving an insurance break on the premium. It's not a required thing by law, but most adhere to the request, especially after the loss of life incident I mentioned earlier.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[AggieDave 6]

Quote

Quote

Wow. You know, if there really is an emergency, I have a size 12EE that works like a champ.

What a bad idea!

But how many broken doors will a business owner tolerate due to a false fire alarm? Or constantly fielding "wellness" calls to check on grandma when the nearest family is hundreds of miles away and she isn't answering her phone?

We have no master key boxes and we get hundreds of those calls each month. Do you know how many of those times we kick down a door? Almost never, there has to be some sort of further information for an exigent circumstance.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[Gravitymaster 0]

Quote

Quote

Now that they have the key to your home, the next step is for a police officer to "observe" or "hear" something that gives him probable cause to search your home without getting one of those pesky warrants.

If it's describing the type of situation regarding apartments that the FD uses where I grew up...the knox box key is to allow entrance to the gated apartment complex...NOT any individual apartments.

There was a loss of life once when the FD couldn't get equipment through the security gate in a timely manner...I don't think the box would, should or could contain keys to every apartment is a given complex.

If you read the article, it seems the problem many of the residents of the town have is they feel it gives city officials access to their homes. If it was just a way for the Fire Department or the Police to enter the building in the event of an emergency, then what happens in the very likely event that the fire or emergency is in someones apartment? They would still have to break down the door.

Quote

"What gives you guys the right?" asked resident Judd Saul at a May 23 public hearing on the plan. "This opens a big can of worms into the intrusion of our private property and our rights."

"Apparently this box is going to be universal, and that's going to have everyone's apartment keys," posited an unidentified citizen.

This seems to be the big concern, not just simple access to the building.

[Tink1717 2]

We've had Knox Box rules here in Baltimore County for years. No controversy or issues other than a few business owners complaining about cost of installation. I guess they figure the waiver of the false alarm fee in exchange for use of the Knox Box is a good deal.

Skydivers don't knock on Death's door. They ring the bell and runaway... It really pisses him off.
-The World Famous Tink. (I never heard of you either!!)
AA #2069 ASA#33 POPS#8808 Swooo 1717

[JohnRich 4]

Quote

I agree that there should be a way for firefighters to (relatively easily) open doors in an emergency. I think we're just talking about details - how to do it in a way that doesn't allow easy access to other people.

They already have it - it's called a "Halligan".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halligan_bar

[airtwardo 7]

If you read the article, it seems the problem many of the residents of the town have is they feel it gives city officials access to their homes. If it was just a way for the Fire Department or the Police to enter the building in the event of an emergency, then what happens in the very likely event that the fire or emergency is in someones apartment? They would still have to break down the door.

That's correct.

Kicking the door of one apartment is preferable to kicking the gate or security door for the building...then all there residents lose one level of protection until the door/gate is replaced.

If you think having a knox box with a gate key significantly compromises your safety and security, then carry a gun...or two!

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[Anvilbrother 0]

Firefighter/EMT/Former Reserve Sheriff

Its not the dire emergency situations where these come into play. If your house is on fire, or if you called in saying your possibly having a heart attack and then pass out and cant open the door, we are just going to get in however we need to. A knox box would help us get there faster and less damage tho.

Its the Alarms, smoke scares, false calls where these come into play. I can count dozens of times where we broke into a commercial or well to do structure for these reasons and found out that we were not needed and basically just came out and damaged someones property.

As far as people saying its a bad idea to put keys of structures outside them in a little box. I can guarantee you that its alot harder to get into the knox than it is just to kick a back door in, or break a window.

As far as making it a requirement, it all kind of follows the states Life Safety Code which is usually 200-300 pages long listing out requirements for those who build businesses and homes. Anything from the door frame sizes to what kind of wall coverings you can have, mandating the use of sprinkler systems are in there, and its all geared to making the structure safer and making it easier on responders to save lives.

Postes r made from an iPad or iPhone. Spelling and gramhair mistakes guaranteed move along,

[popsjumper 2]

Quote

I agree that there should be a way for firefighters to (relatively easily) open doors in an emergency.

They, and the police, already have one...it's called a battering ram.
(Or, in Dave's case, a 12EE)

Lock boxes - BAD IDEA
(time to move your home and business to some other city)

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[billvon 3,085]

>They, and the police, already have one...it's called a battering ram.

If that works for all cases, then great.

[mnealtx 0]

Quote

Lock boxes - BAD IDEA
(time to move your home and business to some other city)

As a way to get into an access gate or building (note that the article talks about apartment buildings and commercial properties, not individual homes), I don't think it's a bad idea...but I'm curious if there's any information readily available about the Knox boxes being defeated in any crimes - might have to do a quick google on that.

Edit to add: Haven't found anything on a Knox box being defeated in a crime, but found a testimonial on the Knox website where it took firefighters over 2 hours to break into one - they finally got it open using a rescue saw.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706