How free is your state?

[quade 4]

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. . . redirect the conversation . . .

Hey, if YOU want to go back to the misperception a number of people had about the nature of the "study" and link in the original post, I'm perfectly fine with discussing how wrong they are about that.

Yeah, let's go back to that - still waiting on you to explain how discussions of taxation on *personal* income, and laws regarding gun control, same sex marriage and cigarette taxes are really talking about business freedom.

I'll give you maybe a 1 out of 4.

Personal income, ok, maybe that IS a personal issue, but it has nothing to do with limiting a person's freedom. You live in a society, you HAVE to pay for it somehow. We can quibble all day about how it's paid, but ultimately a person is going to have to pay some sort of tax to keep the government going.

All the rest; gun control, same-sex marriage and cigarette taxes are corporate issues. Yes, even same sex marriage since that impacts the bottom line of businesses that have to pay for increased benefits to married employes.

If you don't think gun control is a business issue, you're only fooling yourself. Likewise with cigarette taxes.

EVERY business knows, or certainly ought to know, that anything that stands even remotely in the way of their customers and their check out machines is a business issue.

Again, this entire "study" was concocted by Mercatus. They wrap it in the word "freedom" in an insincere attempt to get the uneducated rubes to support it. It's no more about "freedom" than the President's Day or Fourth of July sale is at Walmart.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[champu 1]

Hmm, maybe if I put the thread back through the sieve again...

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Hey cool, I put this thread through a sieve and I found this...

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There is definitely a hefty fiscal conservative bias to the rankings, which isn't surprising considering the source. Basically there seems to be an assumption that any government spending on anything is bad. For example, almost every one of the 30 "least free" states are criticized for spending too much on education, and also for requiring curriculum review and standardized testing for home-schooling. It seems clear that according to their metrics paying taxes to support public schools is a loss of freedom, but the increase in career opportunities and earning potential that follow from access to affordable decent education, for children from lower and middle income families that can't afford private school tuition, simply doesn't count. In their world view "freedom" simply means freedom from taxes, not freedom of career opportunities or social mobility. If you aren't already rich enough to afford $50,000/yr tuition at a private university (with room and board on top of that), well I guess changing bed pans at an assisted living facility is good enough for you! One could argue (and I would) that as a society we are better off when the most talented people can end up as engineers, doctors, accountants, etc, instead of limiting the pool of potential future professionals to the offspring of wealthy families, but in the calculus of the linked study there is no value assigned to such "benefits to society".

Similarly, they ding states for expenditures on public health, hospitals, and even water treatment facilities. Perhaps this isn't surprising for an organization with a history of opposing limits to arsenic in drinking water, and mandatory rest periods for long-distance truckers. Basically, any regulation that imposes a burden on industry is to be opposed, regardless of the adverse consequences to the general public.

On the other hand, the standards they applied seem to be quite socially liberal, marking states down for opposing same-sex unions and for draconian marijuana and "victimless crime" laws. Also they oppose elections for judges and are proponents of revising forfeiture laws to put the burden of proof on the government. Those are all positions I can agree with.

Overall I'm not sure there is a clear-cut correlation between "free" and "not free" and R and D states. Several Southern states (for example Louisiana) are ranked very poorly despite being solidly Republican, and some fairly solid Democratic states (eg Oregon) are ranked at the high end of the "free" scale. There does seem to be an inverse correlation with average income, and it seems to me there may also be a loose correlation with the degree of urbanization. Basically states with large urban populations need a system of services and regulations to manage large numbers of people living in close association (so they are less free), whereas states that have large rural populations, where there is need for regulation and services as your actions as an individual (using your back yard as a toilet for example) are less likely to affect your neighbors.

Don

[kelpdiver 2]

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If you don't think gun control is a business issue, you're only fooling yourself. Likewise with cigarette taxes.

Help us out here, then. Are you still clinging to some notion that gun sales are BIG BUSINESS? Gun control has no bearing on commerce.

As for tobacco taxes, that money is spent on various goodie social programs, like child care, that have nothing to do with smoking. It's a big deal for government spending, but again is more of a nuisance to vendors. For smokers, otoh, it's a pretty substantial and highly regressive tax.

[mnealtx 0]

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All the rest; gun control, same-sex marriage and cigarette taxes are corporate issues.

Strictness of gun control is a corporate issue and not an individual freedom issue? Prove it.

Cig taxes that are are assessed by the state and go to the state is a corporate issue and not an individual freedom issue (sin taxes)? Prove it.

***Yes, even same sex marriage since that impacts the bottom line of businesses that have to pay for increased benefits to married employes.

[wmw999 2,584]

Sorry, I think it's a lost cause.
That was a really good post, though.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[kallend 2,146]

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Sorry, I think it's a lost cause.
That was a really good post, though.

Wendy P.

Yeah, but it STILL looks like a pantomime horse.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[champu 1]

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Sorry, I think it's a lost cause.
That was a really good post, though.

Wendy P.

Yeah, but it STILL looks like a pantomime horse.

I'll admit that when I first saw his avatar years back I thought it was a pantomime horse wearing overalls.

[JohnRich 4]

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What kind of snake is it in your avatar?

It's a rattle snake. At one point early in US history it was an iconic animal representing the colonies. This particular representation appears on the Gadsden Flag, sometimes known as the "Don't Tread On Me" flag. It surprises me that you wouldn't know that.

It surprises me that since you're following this thread that you missed where I mentioned exactly this topic in message #67, yesterday. So that proves that I did know it. And even if I hadn't said it yesterday, just because it wasn't mentioned wouldn't mean that I didn't know it.

The snake used to represent the colonies was usually depicted in segments, with the segments labeled with the colony abbreviations, not whole like yours.

So why have you chosen the "Don't tread on me" symbol as your avatar?

[JohnRich 4]

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It's the type of snake and why it was used that he appears to be unclear on. Otherwise, why would he have previously said "slimy" and asked the question about the type of snake? Well, in all fairness, I doubt JR is so poor a sportsman not to have noticed the coils and tail.

You missed that previous message of again, where I explained why I called it "slimy". You really should pay more attention to this thread, since it has come to be all about you. I used the word "slimy" to illustrate how negative comments can be invented from someone's avatar, just as you used another persons mule avatar to call him a jackass (message #67 again). Amazon missed that point too, but you usually do better than her.

Yes, it appears to be a rattlesnake from the coils on the tip of the tail, but the skin pattern is unlike any rattlesnake I've seen. And once again, it was about nitpicking your avatar, since you wanted to argue about asses, mules, donkeys or horses for Belgian_draft's avatar. If you're going to open the door for that kind of thing about others, you need to be prepared to answer the same for yourself.

[quade 4]

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The snake used to represent the colonies was usually depicted in segments, with the segments labeled with the colony abbreviations, not whole like yours.

Actually JR what you're referring to is the the Franklin wood cut that said "Join or Die."

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So why have you chosen the "Don't tread on me" symbol as your avatar?

I've mentioned this before. I like Gadsden, the Revolutionary war hero whose flag it actually was, and I've used it in various settings as my icon for about a decade. Well before the Tea Party people decided the flag stood for something else.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[mnealtx 0]

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Well before the Tea Party people decided the flag stood for something else.

Yeah, about that... from foundingfathers.info

"The snake symbol came in handy ten years later, when Americans were again uniting against a common enemy.

In 1765 the common enemy was the Stamp Act. The British decided that they needed more control over the colonies, and more importantly, they needed more money from the colonies. The Crown was loaded with debt from the French and Indian War. "

History doesn't seem to support your claim of usurpation.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[GeorgiaDon 379]

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Post: Hmm, maybe if I put the thread back through the sieve again...

In Reply To
Hey cool, I put this thread through a sieve and I found this...

Thanks for noticing. As Wendy commented, though, trying to have a thoughtful discussion about anything around here seems to be a lost cause. Most people seem much more interested in 3rd grade level pissing matches. No wonder Nerdgirl, GeorgeRussia, and so many others have stopped playing.

Don

_____________________________________
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

[quade 4]

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History doesn't seem to support your claim of usurpation.

Well, first, I'm so glad to see you were sincere in your complaints about the thread going away from its original topic, but since YOU want to continue down this road, I expect no further complaints from you if I continue to explain why you're flat out wrong.

The Stamp Act was simply one of several things the colonies disagreed with. They also disagreed about the supposed religious authority that granted George royal status and rule. They also disagreed over tea taxes and any one of a number of other commerce related issues.

Franklin had at one point thought that the symbol of the colonies ought to be the rattle snake; a tenacious and formidable indigenous species. I think at one point he also lobbied for the turkey.

The roots of the Gadsden Flag are indeed the "Join or Die" Franklin wood cut. However the overdriving concept being one of unity. Not the divided snake as suggested by JR.

The Tea Party, on the other hand, has very consciously used the flag as a divisive tool and promoted an "Us or Them" attitude.

I personally believe the US is stronger with all 50 states working together and attempting to find common ground rather than a group of militants wandering around attempting to divide it and threatening "Second Amendment solutions."

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[mnealtx 0]

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History doesn't seem to support your claim of usurpation.

Well, first, I'm so glad to see you were sincere in your complaints about the thread going away from its original topic, but since YOU want to continue down this road, I expect no further complaints from you if I continue to explain why you're flat out wrong.

MOST kids quit using the 'look what you made me do' defense around third grade. You may also wish to note that you're the one that made the point and connection yet again.

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The Tea Party, on the other hand, has very consciously used the flag as a divisive tool and promoted an "Us or Them" attitude.

Twaddle.

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I personally believe the US is stronger with all 50 states working together and attempting to find common ground rather than a group of militants wandering around attempting to divide it and threatening "Second Amendment solutions."

Must have missed the arrests of all those militants and the murders they committed - care to share your info, or will you just admit that you're blowing smoke?

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[quade 4]

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You may also wish to note that you're the one that made the point and connection yet again.

Nope, JR did, twice and you followed up. I notice you didn't complain about him derailing the conversation again either and it certainly appeared as if you were more than a willing participant. Nobody dragged you into it, but you certainly seem to have participated with verve in your efforts to "get" me.

Nice try, but a swing and a miss.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[mnealtx 0]

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You may also wish to note that you're the one that made the point and connection yet again.

Nope, JR did, twice and you followed up.

You may want to re-read the thread - neither John nor I made comment about the TP hijacking the Gadsden flag, that was all you.

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I notice you didn't complain about him derailing the conversation again either and it certainly appeared as if you were more than a willing participant.

He was responding to your posts from before my re-entry into the thread.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[quade 4]

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He was responding to your posts from before my re-entry into the thread.

Uh huh, then why not complain about him? Why only me?

You seem rather disingenuous in your efforts to get the thread back on track and you continue to do so with every post you make.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[JohnRich 4]

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[The roots of the Gadsden Flag are indeed the "Join or Die" Franklin wood cut. However the overdriving concept being one of unity. Not the divided snake as suggested by JR.

I didn't say that the concept wasn't "unity", I simply pointed out that the snake was represented in segments, rather than whole, like in your avatar.

http://scd5patriots.org/yahoo_site_admin/assets/images/join_or_die.86155547_std.jpg

[quade 4]

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[The roots of the Gadsden Flag are indeed the "Join or Die" Franklin wood cut. However the overdriving concept being one of unity. Not the divided snake as suggested by JR.

I didn't say that the concept wasn't "unity", I simply pointed out that the snake was represented in segments, rather than whole, like in your avatar.

http://scd5patriots.org/yahoo_site_admin/assets/images/join_or_die.86155547_std.jpg

And again, that's the Franklin wood cut, not the flag.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[mnealtx 0]

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He was responding to your posts from before my re-entry into the thread.

Uh huh, then why not complain about him? Why only me?

You seem rather disingenuous in your efforts to get the thread back on track and you continue to do so with every post you make.

Actually, Paul, it was the lame attempt to connect comment on your avatar to disrespect of the founding fathers that I called you out on.

You'll also notice that I said nothing about your avatar, but your (continued) attempt for the stealth slam against the Tea Party.

Feel free to get the conversation back on track - 103 and 104 seem like good places to start, once you're done with your 'it's not fair' schtick.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[Amazon 7]

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It's the type of snake and why it was used that he appears to be unclear on. Otherwise, why would he have previously said "slimy" and asked the question about the type of snake? Well, in all fairness, I doubt JR is so poor a sportsman not to have noticed the coils and tail.

You missed that previous message of again, where I explained why I called it "slimy". You really should pay more attention to this thread, since it has come to be all about you. I used the word "slimy" to illustrate how negative comments can be invented from someone's avatar, just as you used another persons mule avatar to call him a jackass (message #67 again). Amazon missed that point too, but you usually do better than her.

Yes, it appears to be a rattlesnake from the coils on the tip of the tail, but the skin pattern is unlike any rattlesnake I've seen. And once again, it was about nitpicking your avatar, since you wanted to argue about asses, mules, donkeys or horses for Belgian_draft's avatar. If you're going to open the door for that kind of thing about others, you need to be prepared to answer the same for yourself.

Backpeddlin some more I see.. I did not miss your reference.. to something that isn't... I have never picked up a single snake... that was slimy.... but GAWD.. dont get all butt hurt over it when someone calls you on it.

Wah wah wah.. whinge whinge whinge...I still love that favorite quote John.... its something you boys seem obsessed with ... since it gets yalls aattention.