How free is your state?

[quade 4]

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Try running a business sometime and you will see just how little freedom even a small business has.

So then, you admit this IS about corporate freedom rather than the freedom of individuals.

Thank you for finally doing that.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[christelsabine 1]

Hi Mike,

you're fine ...?

dudeist skydiver # 3105

[mnealtx 0]

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Hi Mike,

you're fine ...?

Right as rain, thanks - everything ok up there?

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[GeorgiaDon 379]

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Seems there is a relationship between political party affiliation and freedom.
http://www.gallup.com/poll/114016/state-states-political-party-affiliation.aspx

When a group defines "freedom" essentially as being "good for corporations" then that shouldn't come as much of a surprise.

There is definitely a hefty fiscal conservative bias to the rankings, which isn't surprising considering the source. Basically there seems to be an assumption that any government spending on anything is bad. For example, almost every one of the 30 "least free" states are criticized for spending too much on education, and also for requiring curriculum review and standardized testing for home-schooling. It seems clear that according to their metrics paying taxes to support public schools is a loss of freedom, but the increase in career opportunities and earning potential that follow from access to affordable decent education, for children from lower and middle income families that can't afford private school tuition, simply doesn't count. In their world view "freedom" simply means freedom from taxes, not freedom of career opportunities or social mobility. If you aren't already rich enough to afford $50,000/yr tuition at a private university (with room and board on top of that), well I guess changing bed pans at an assisted living facility is good enough for you! One could argue (and I would) that as a society we are better off when the most talented people can end up as engineers, doctors, accountants, etc, instead of limiting the pool of potential future professionals to the offspring of wealthy families, but in the calculus of the linked study there is no value assigned to such "benefits to society".

Similarly, they ding states for expenditures on public health, hospitals, and even water treatment facilities. Perhaps this isn't surprising for an organization with a history of opposing limits to arsenic in drinking water, and mandatory rest periods for long-distance truckers. Basically, any regulation that imposes a burden on industry is to be opposed, regardless of the adverse consequences to the general public.

On the other hand, the standards they applied seem to be quite socially liberal, marking states down for opposing same-sex unions and for draconian marijuana and "victimless crime" laws. Also they oppose elections for judges and are proponents of revising forfeiture laws to put the burden of proof on the government. Those are all positions I can agree with.

Overall I'm not sure there is a clear-cut correlation between "free" and "not free" and R and D states. Several Southern states (for example Louisiana) are ranked very poorly despite being solidly Republican, and some fairly solid Democratic states (eg Oregon) are ranked at the high end of the "free" scale. There does seem to be an inverse correlation with average income, and it seems to me there may also be a loose correlation with the degree of urbanization. Basically states with large urban populations need a system of services and regulations to manage large numbers of people living in close association (so they are less free), whereas states that have large rural populations, where there is need for regulation and services as your actions as an individual (using your back yard as a toilet for example) are less likely to affect your neighbors.

Don

_____________________________________
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

[Belgian_Draft 0]

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Try running a business sometime and you will see just how little freedom even a small business has.

So then, you admit this IS about corporate freedom rather than the freedom of individuals.

Thank you for finally doing that.

I made no such admission and you damn well know it.
Now....back to my question. Name one...JUST ONE...right or freedom a corp can take from you without your consent. JUST ONE!
Why is it you have such difficulty understanding the simple difference between rights, freedom, benefits, and privelages? It isn't that hard!

HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

[Belgian_Draft 0]

I'll clue you in on something....
The report is a comparison of how much the government intrudes upon people to make their own decisions, keep the money they earn, make their own way in life, associate with whom they choose, etc. In other words, make their own decisions and choices.
It is not about what the government can do for you, provide for you, or how easy it is to collect welfare.

HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

[GeorgiaDon 379]

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Name one...JUST ONE...right or freedom a corp can take from you without your consent. JUST ONE!
Why is it you have such difficulty understanding the simple difference between rights, freedom, benefits, and privelages? It isn't that hard!

Is clean air/water a right, a freedom, a benefit, or a privilege? Why do manufacturing industries, the auto industry, etc consistently oppose environmental regulations? Why am I forced to breath/drink their waste even if I choose not to buy their products?

Don

_____________________________________
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

[Belgian_Draft 0]

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Name one...JUST ONE...right or freedom a corp can take from you without your consent. JUST ONE!
Why is it you have such difficulty understanding the simple difference between rights, freedom, benefits, and privelages? It isn't that hard!

Is clean air/water a right, a freedom, a benefit, or a privilege? Why do manufacturing industries, the auto industry, etc consistently oppose environmental regulations? Why am I forced to breath/drink their waste even if I choose not to buy their products?

Don

Clean air/water is a right.
Whether you choose to live where industry fouls the air and water is up to you. If you choose to live in such an area then you have consented to give up that right. Nobody forces you. With the history of industry and he environment, it would be ridiculous to live anywhere near a factory and expect to never have problems with air/water quality.

HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

[quade 4]

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Clean air/water is a right.
Whether you choose to live where industry fouls the air and water is up to you. If you choose to live in such an area then you have consented to give up that right. Nobody forces you. With the history of industry and he environment, it would be ridiculous to live anywhere near a factory and expect to never have problems with air/water quality.

Hogwash. It's certainly not true of anyone without the wherewithal to be able to move such as children who have no choice but to live where their parents do. It's also not true of anyone that lived in the community before the company moved in and fucked up the air and water.

But keep trying to justify companies doing whatever the F they want to and them having more rights than actual people. It's hilarious.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Belgian_Draft 0]

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Clean air/water is a right.
Whether you choose to live where industry fouls the air and water is up to you. If you choose to live in such an area then you have consented to give up that right. Nobody forces you. With the history of industry and he environment, it would be ridiculous to live anywhere near a factory and expect to never have problems with air/water quality.

Hogwash. It's certainly not true of anyone without the wherewithal to be able to move such as children who have no choice but to live where their parents do. It's also not true of anyone that lived in the community before the company moved in and fucked up the air and water.

But keep trying to justify companies doing whatever the F they want to and them having more rights than actual people. It's hilarious.

So now the squirming begins!!
I'm not justifying corps doing anything they want. I never mentioned anything remotely close to that.
If you would just admit that you opened your XL mouth before reading the report....
If you would have confined your comments to something relevent to the report....
If you knew anything about what you are trying to discuss....
You wouldn't have to squirm around like you are.

HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

[GeorgiaDon 379]

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Name one...JUST ONE...right or freedom a corp can take from you without your consent. JUST ONE!
Why is it you have such difficulty understanding the simple difference between rights, freedom, benefits, and privelages? It isn't that hard!

Is clean air/water a right, a freedom, a benefit, or a privilege? Why do manufacturing industries, the auto industry, etc consistently oppose environmental regulations? Why am I forced to breath/drink their waste even if I choose not to buy their products?

Don

Clean air/water is a right.
Whether you choose to live where industry fouls the air and water is up to you. If you choose to live in such an area then you have consented to give up that right. Nobody forces you. With the history of industry and he environment, it would be ridiculous to live anywhere near a factory and expect to never have problems with air/water quality.

Seriously? You are saying that industry has a "right" to pollute that trumps my right to live where I wish to and enjoy my right to clean air/water? Whatever happened to "freedom of association" and the "pursuit of happiness", which for me might entail living on a patch of land I happen to have bought and built a house on before some industry decided to save a few dollars by dumping their waste into my neighborhood? Why should their "rights" (and I dispute that anyone has a right to expose others to harm by fouling their air/water) take precedence over mine? Also, perhaps you are aware that air and water pollution does not stay local; there is not a place on Earth, not even the Antarctic, that was not touched by DDT and its metabolites, or by lead from gas (and the auto industry fought tooth and nail against the ban on leaded gasoline, despite overwhelming evidence of serious adverse health effects). Are you seriously suggesting that by continuing to live on Planet Earth I am agreeing to be harmed by these corporations?

Don

_____________________________________
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

[Belgian_Draft 0]

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You are saying that industry has a "right" to pollute that trumps my right to live where I wish to and enjoy my right to clean air/water?

Nope, not at all.

HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

[kelpdiver 2]

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But, I still consider my country to be much more free. I do not need hundreds of weapons to feel safe in my home.

Yes, I can see how being denied guns, free speech, or freedom of religion would seem to be much more free. (err, actually, I suspect I meant the opposite)

[Gravitymaster 0]

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But, I still consider my country to be much more free. I do not need hundreds of weapons to feel safe in my home.

That's likely, only because you are white and German. Others of different religious and cultural backgrounds don't feel so safe. Especially with over 50,000 skinheads and other hate groups which exist in Germany today. They don't share your same sense of security.

[quade 4]

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You wouldn't have to squirm around like you are.

Who's "squirming"?

Not me. I stand by everything I've written in this thread and haven't had to resort to petty name calling and ridiculous claims like you have.

You only make yourself look silly by making such claims too.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[quade 4]

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Especially with over 50,000 skinheads and other hate groups which exist in Germany today.

Because, you know, we don't have any hate groups in the US.

BTW, I now define "freedom" in terms of being able to legally drive as fast as you fuckin' can.

Germany wins!

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Gravitymaster 0]

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Especially with over 50,000 skinheads and other hate groups which exist in Germany today.

Because, you know, we don't have any hate groups in the US.

BTW, I now define "freedom" in terms of being able to legally drive as fast as you fuckin' can.

Germany wins!

Exactly, and those who fear hate groups in the U.S. can go to bed at night with a weapon to protect themselves. Not so in Germany.

[quade 4]

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Especially with over 50,000 skinheads and other hate groups which exist in Germany today.

Because, you know, we don't have any hate groups in the US.

BTW, I now define "freedom" in terms of being able to legally drive as fast as you fuckin' can.

Germany wins!

Exactly, and those who fear hate groups in the U.S. can go to bed at night with a weapon to protect themselves. Not so in Germany.

Which, of course, goes back to my original point in responding to this thread. It all depends on how you define your terms and the original post's link had it defined in terms most people wouldn't actually associate with "freedom" but rather "business."

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Belgian_Draft 0]

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You wouldn't have to squirm around like you are.

Who's "squirming"?

Not me. I stand by everything I've written in this thread and haven't had to resort to petty name calling and ridiculous claims like you have.

You only make yourself look silly by making such claims too.

You're squirming.
You started when you said the report was all about corporations screwing over the little guy...which it isn't. If you had actually read it you would have seen that, but instead you start shooting off your mouth...as usual.
Then, when you realized how goat-fuck stupid your initial assumption was, you accused me of admitting you were right...which I didn't.
Some way for a mod to behave.

HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

[quade 4]

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You started when you said the report was all about corporations screwing over the little guy...which it isn't.

I'm fairly certain that's not what I said. I'm fairly certain I said;

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Of course, they pick and choose what counts as "freedom." I think if you really look at their criteria it's not so much about personal freedom as businesses being free from regulation, for instance they include "mandated family leave" as one of the criteria that counts against a state, when they could just have easily counted it "for" the individual.

Regulating business, in and of itself, doesn't mean a person is more or less free.

It's you that have shot off your mouth before reading.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[mnealtx 0]

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Which, of course, goes back to my original point in responding to this thread. It all depends on how you define your terms and the original post's link had it defined in terms most people wouldn't actually associate with "freedom" but rather "business."

Yes, of course, because things like 'taxation as a percentage of PERSONAL income' really means "business tax".

Wasn't aware that evaluation of gun control law, same sex marriage and cigarette taxes were associated with business, either - thanks for pointing that out for us.

You *really* should have read the report - or even glanced at section pages.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[Belgian_Draft 0]

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You started when you said the report was all about corporations screwing over the little guy...which it isn't.

I'm fairly certain that's not what I said. I'm fairly certain I said;

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Of course, they pick and choose what counts as "freedom." I think if you really look at their criteria it's not so much about personal freedom as businesses being free from regulation, for instance they include "mandated family leave" as one of the criteria that counts against a state, when they could just have easily counted it "for" the individual.

Regulating business, in and of itself, doesn't mean a person is more or less free.

It's you that have shot off your mouth before reading.

Thank you for making my point for me. You just restated your position that the report is about business and corps....it isn't. It is about individual rights.
I'll bet you still haven't read it.

HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

[quade 4]

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Which, of course, goes back to my original point in responding to this thread. It all depends on how you define your terms and the original post's link had it defined in terms most people wouldn't actually associate with "freedom" but rather "business."

Yes, of course, because things like 'taxation as a percentage of PERSONAL income' really means "business tax".

Wasn't aware that evaluation of gun control law, same sex marriage and cigarette taxes were associated with business, either - thanks for pointing that out for us.

You *really* should have read the report - or even glanced at section pages.

I refer you to post #12 of this thread wherein I detail where I formed my opinion . . . of course, that also required me to do more reading than either you or our jackass iconed friend seem to have done.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Belgian_Draft 0]

Ain't it something how quade can backpedal so fast he trips over his own lips?

HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

[quade 4]

Quote

Ain't it something how quade can backpedal so fast he trips over his own lips?

Again, I'm not back pedaling. I continue to stand by everything I've written in this thread. Your continued attempts to suggest otherwise are simply ridiculous.

It is you, my jackassed iconed friend that shot YOUR mouth off before closely scrutinizing the originally linked web site and drew your conclusions a scant 4 minutes after the original post.

Now, I'm sure you're a speed reader and are able to digest in detail quite a bit of information in a very short amount of time, but in this case, the posting history simply doesn't support that.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver