High School Student Stands Up Against Prayer at Public School and Is Ostracized, Demeaned and Threatened

[jaybird18c 25]

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>I can't figure out for the life of me why the atheist cares at all about this

Same reason you'd scream bloody murder if Richard Dawkins gave a talk at your child's graduation about how the evidence doesn't support the existence of God.

I would love for Richard Dawkins to come to my kid's private Christian school. Within their classical model of instruction, they're taught logic and critical thinking skills. Some of our kids could put on a clinic with Richard in a debate.

[mnealtx 0]

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Santa Fe, referencing Rosenberger: "We have held, for example, that an individual's contribution to a government-created forum was not government speech."

Way to cut and paste something that doesn't pertain to the circumstances of the event.

Actually, it does - of course, you have to read the decision HONESTLY to realize that, though, so I understand how you missed it.

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You might have been more accurate to cut and paste from the same ruling:

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The delivery of a message such as the invocation here--on school property, at school-sponsored events, over the school's public address system, by a speaker representing the student body, under the supervision of school faculty, and pursuant to a school policy that explicitly and implicitly encourages public prayer--is not properly characterized as "private" speech

You *do* realize that in the case in this thread, there was *NO* "school policy that explicitly and implicitly encourages public prayer" , right?

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An invocation at a graduation ceremony is not protected by the first amendment.

Yes, actually, it is. Better do some more reading, skippy.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[jakee 1,595]

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my kid's private Christian school. Within their classical model of instruction, they're taught logic and critical thinking skills.

Figures. Teach them to recognise the enemy and they'll know how to avoid them.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[rushmc 23]

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I believe deep down each one of them, in their suppression of the truth in unrighteousness, hates Jesus Christ (even if they deny it).

Yes, but you also believe you have invisible friends, so your beliefs are really quite meaningless and irrelevant.

Which is no different than your stated belief that an exhaled gas caused global climate change

So what is your point?

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[jaybird18c 25]

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my kid's private Christian school. Within their classical model of instruction, they're taught logic and critical thinking skills.

Figures. Teach them to recognise the enemy and they'll know how to avoid them.

Would you not be open for Ken Ham or even Ben Stein to lecture at your kid's school (if you have kids)? Or do you "teach them to recognize the enemy?" Wouldn't it be good for them to really know both sides of the issues and have the critical thinking skills to decide for themselves which is correct?

[david3 0]

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my kid's private Christian school. Within their classical model of instruction, they're taught logic and critical thinking skills.

Figures. Teach them to recognise the enemy and they'll know how to avoid them.

Would you not be open for Ken Ham or even Ben Stein to lecture at your kid's school (if you have kids)? Or do you "teach them to recognize the enemy?" Wouldn't it be good for them to really know both sides of the issues and have the critical thinking skills to decide for themselves which is correct?

So if your children used that logic and critical thinking to reject Christianity despite the religious indoctrination they are receiving will their schooling have succeeded or failed?

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[DiverMike 5]

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An invocation at a graduation ceremony is not protected by the first amendment.

Yes, actually, it is. Better do some more reading, skippy.

My mistake - I thought I was debating with someone who acknowledges supreme court decisions. You can't yell "fire" in a crowded building and call it free speach. You can't lead a prayer as part of a Public High school commencement and call it free speach. You are boring me with your lack of knowledge. I quit.

For the same reason I jump off a perfectly good diving board.

[jaybird18c 25]

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So if your children used that logic and critical thinking to reject Christianity despite the religious indoctrination they are receiving will their schooling have succeeded or failed?
.

It's not up to my kid's school, me, or anyone else but God to establish faith and belief in my children. It is my job, in which the school is a partner, to present them with what we believe to be true and to culture an environment to that end. However, they could in fact decide for themselves to reject the faith. I hope not and i think it's much less likely given that they've been brought up with the benefits of being part of a covenant family...but it is possible.

[Butters 0]

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So if your children used that logic and critical thinking to reject Christianity despite the religious indoctrination they are receiving will their schooling have succeeded or failed?
.

It's not up to my kid's school, me, or anyone else but God to establish faith and belief in my children. It is my job, in which the school is a partner, to present them with what we believe to be true and to culture an environment to that end. However, they could in fact decide for themselves to reject the faith. I hope not and i think it's much less likely given that they've been brought up with the benefits of being part of a covenant family...but it is possible.

In other words, we hope not because we've done as much as we can do to indoctrinate them with our beliefs ...

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

[jaybird18c 25]

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In other words, we hope not because we've done as much as we can do to indoctrinate them with our beliefs ...

You don't teach your kids your beliefs and right from wrong and why?

How loving is that?

[Butters 0]

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In other words, we hope not because we've done as much as we can do to indoctrinate them with our beliefs ...

You don't teach your kids your beliefs and right from wrong and why?

How loving is that?

There is a difference between teaching and indoctrinating ...

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

[rushmc 23]

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In other words, we hope not because we've done as much as we can do to indoctrinate them with our beliefs ...

You don't teach your kids your beliefs and right from wrong and why?

How loving is that?

There is a difference between teaching and indoctrinating ...

So, if I am following this correctly, if regected, it is teaching. If followed or acepted, it it indoctrination?

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[mnealtx 0]

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My mistake - I thought I was debating with someone who acknowledges supreme court decisions.

I wish I could say the same - unfortunately, your argument clearly proves the exact opposite.

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You can't yell "fire" in a crowded building and call it free speach.

Agreed.

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You can't lead a prayer as part of a Public High school commencement and call it free speach.

Wrong again...yeah, you definitely didn't read the decision.

Santa Fe: In Jones v. Clear Creek Independent School Dist., 977 F.2d 963 (1992), that court held that student-led prayer that was approved by a vote of the students and was nonsectarian and nonproselytizing was permissible at high school graduation ceremonies.

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I quit.

That's probably best - saves you from *further* embarassment.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[mnealtx 0]

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There is a difference between teaching and indoctrinating ...

That would be anything you don't agree with = 'indoctrination', evidently.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[david3 0]

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You don't teach your kids your beliefs and right from wrong and why?

How loving is that?

There is a difference between teaching and indoctrinating ...

[rushmc 23]

I did not get that from him either

I simple replied to the last post in the thread at the time.

But to follow up, what part of the my post do you consider inacurate?

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[Butters 0]

Putting forth theories as facts before teaching critical thinking skills is one sign of indoctrination.

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

[rushmc 23]

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Blah, blah, blah ... what good Christians you are.

Hmm

So you do think that if someone has been exposed to the information and they chose to become followers they have been failed in teaching process and therfore have been indoctrinated?

I am seriously asking

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[david3 0]

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I did not get that from him either

I simple replied to the last post in the thread at the time.

But to follow up, what part of the my post do you consider inacurate?

This part.

"if regected, it is teaching. If followed or acepted, it it indoctrination"

[rehmwa 2]

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There is a difference between teaching and indoctrinating ...

indoctrination isn't a bad word, but people take it that way, and some 'indoctrination' is pretty loathsome, but not in terms of raising kids to the parent's values...

it's called doing what parents feel is best based on their own personal experiences - the trouble is when there is unsolicited outside influence that the parent isn't allowed to regulate - jayb got to choose his kid's environment so no issue. public schools thumb their noses at the parent's beliefs and indoctrinate according to the great commandments of socialization and NEA funding priorities.

I have no issue with a very religious family trying to pass those values onto their children. Ditto for atheists trying to do the same from their faith and indoctrinate their kids.

As an agnostic, I try to expose my child to all beliefs so she can decide on her own (of course, colored by my personal level of skeptism) hoping she'll choose to follow suit - isn't that also indoctrinating her to my agnostic values?

and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that

edit: see you Friday

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[rushmc 23]

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I did not get that from him either

I simple replied to the last post in the thread at the time.

But to follow up, what part of the my post do you consider inacurate?

This part.

"if regected, it is teaching. If followed or acepted, it it indoctrination"

So, if someone chose to follow, they could be, in your estimation, taught or indoctrinated?

How would some one determine which is which?

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[rehmwa 2]

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So, if someone chose to follow, they could be, in your estimation, taught or indoctrinated?

How would some one determine which is which?

if we want to choose to use the word "indoctrination" in it's most negative sense then:

"indoctrination" is the teaching to children beliefs that are counter to the wishes of their parents (who are responsible for that alone)
how's that?

any other definition is just - indoctrination is teach people something I don't believe in
which sucks as a definition

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Butters 0]

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Blah, blah, blah ... what good Christians you are.

Hmm

So you do think that if someone has been exposed to the information and they chose to become followers they have been failed in teaching process and therfore have been indoctrinated?

Am seriously asking

Revised my previous post to reflect my thoughts. I think you've failed in the teaching process when you pose one theory as right and the competing theories as wrong instead of teaching the theories as theories and allowing the individual to make their own decision.

PS: At what age would you allow your child to deny your religion and refrain from participating in it?

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

[rushmc 23]

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So, if someone chose to follow, they could be, in your estimation, taught or indoctrinated?

How would some one determine which is which?

if we want to choose to use the word "indoctrination" in it's most negative sense then:

"indoctrination" is the teaching to children beliefs that are counter to the wishes of their parents (who are responsible for that alone)
how's that?

any other definition is just - indoctrination is teach people something I don't believe in
which sucks as a definition

I could go with this

But I was not the one who used the word here

I find it curious how some anti religion relious nuts are just as passonate in their beliefs but po po the beliefs of others. And then tell them if their children turn out to be followers then they were failed some how

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[david3 0]

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I did not get that from him either

I simple replied to the last post in the thread at the time.

But to follow up, what part of the my post do you consider inacurate?

This part.

"if regected, it is teaching. If followed or acepted, it it indoctrination"

So, if someone chose to follow, they could be, in your estimation, taught or indoctrinated?

How would some one determine which is which?

I’m not trying to be flip but there are many sites online that will give you definitions for the terms teaching and indoctrination. I don’t believe any of them offer anything like "if regected, it is teaching. If followed or acepted, it it indoctrination".

You asked “if I am following this correctly”. I didn’t think you were.