High School Student Stands Up Against Prayer at Public School and Is Ostracized, Demeaned and Threatened

[BrokenR1 0]

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Your posting certainly doesn't show it, since I provided proof that prayer *is*, in fact, allowed in schools under certain circumstances, of which a graduation ceremony is one.

Never said what I learned from you.

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School attendance and school funding having nothing to do the 'mandate' or 'sponsorship' of a prayer led by a student - you're moving the goalposts.

Also never said prayer was mandated nor sponsored, but I did say the location was. You assume too much. I was replying to a specific question and have never moved nor changed what I said. All posts remain unedited.

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Rap is to music what etch-a-sketch is to art.

[mnealtx 0]

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Also never said prayer was mandated nor sponsored, but I did say the location was.

Makes no difference. Again, from ed.gov:

Santa Fe, 530 U.S. at 302 (explaining that "not every message" that is "authorized by a government policy and take place on government property at government-sponsored school-related events" is "the government's own").

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I was replying to a specific question and have never moved nor changed what I said. All posts remain unedited.

And still wrong - unless you're claiming that atheism is itself a religion. Failing that, there's no right not to be offended - sorry.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[BrokenR1 0]

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I was replying to a specific question and have never moved nor changed what I said. All posts remain unedited.

And still wrong - unless you're claiming that atheism is itself a religion. Failing that, there's no right not to be offended - sorry.

Still wrong about what?

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Rap is to music what etch-a-sketch is to art.

[BrokenR1 0]

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Also never said prayer was mandated nor sponsored, but I did say the location was.

Makes no difference. Again, from ed.gov:

Santa Fe, 530 U.S. at 302 (explaining that "not every message" that is "authorized by a government policy and take place on government property at government-sponsored school-related events" is "the government's own").

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I was replying to a specific question and have never moved nor changed what I said. All posts remain unedited.

And still wrong - unless you're claiming that atheism is itself a religion. Failing that, there's no right not to be offended - sorry.

Since you added to your post. What exactly are you arguing? Have you even read what I posted or to what I was replying? What does Atheism as a religion have to do with anything? And finally with your double negative you are correct in that there is no right not to be offended.

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Rap is to music what etch-a-sketch is to art.

[mnealtx 0]

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I was replying to a specific question and have never moved nor changed what I said. All posts remain unedited.

And still wrong - unless you're claiming that atheism is itself a religion. Failing that, there's no right not to be offended - sorry.

Still wrong about what?

The Supreme Court has held that "there is a crucial difference between government speech endorsing religion, which the Establishment Clause forbids, and private speech endorsing religion, which the Free Speech and Free Exercise Clauses protect." (Mergens, 1990) and that "an individual's contribution to a government-created forum was not government speech." (Rosenberger, 1995)

Thus, the claims of government mandate or government sponsorship of a location as a bar against religious speech is a failed argument. Additionally, religious speech is protected by the First Amendment - there is no basis to a claim that you are allowed to be 'free of religion'.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[BrokenR1 0]

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I was replying to a specific question and have never moved nor changed what I said. All posts remain unedited.

And still wrong - unless you're claiming that atheism is itself a religion. Failing that, there's no right not to be offended - sorry.

Still wrong about what?

The Supreme Court has held that "there is a crucial difference between government speech endorsing religion, which the Establishment Clause forbids, and private speech endorsing religion, which the Free Speech and Free Exercise Clauses protect." (Mergens, 1990) and that "an individual's contribution to a government-created forum was not government speech." (Rosenberger, 1995)

Thus, the claims of government mandate or government sponsorship of a location as a bar against religious speech is a failed argument. Additionally, religious speech is protected by the First Amendment - there is no basis to a claim that you are allowed to be 'free of religion'.

Have you still not read what I posted or the question it was to?

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Rap is to music what etch-a-sketch is to art.

[dreamdancer 0]

...Damon Fowler, an atheist student at Bastrop High School in Louisiana, was about to graduate. His public school was planning to have a prayer as part of the graduation ceremony: as they traditionally did, as so many public schools around the country do every year...

stay away from moving propellers - they bite
blue skies from thai sky adventures
good solid response-provoking keyboarding

[mnealtx 0]

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Have you still not read what I posted or the question it was to?

Yes, I did, and the information I provided was relevant to that reply.

I'll restate:

1. Government mandate and government sponsorship of a venue has no bearing on the application of separation, as shown by Rosenberger and supported by Mergens.

BTW - since you're claiming that the 'government mandate' and 'government sponsorship' comments were made to a specific question, perhaps you can give us the name and location of the government restaurant that the praying family was forced to eat at?

2. The only place you can claim a right be 'free of religion' is on your own private property, just as the only place the religious can claim a right to be 'free of atheism' is on THEIR own private property.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[mnealtx 0]

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...Damon Fowler, an atheist student at Bastrop High School in Louisiana, was about to graduate. His public school was planning to have a prayer as part of the graduation ceremony: as they traditionally did, as so many public schools around the country do every year...

And then the school canceled the prayer, as stated in your own link.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[Andy9o8 2]

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High School Student Stands Up Against Prayer at Public School

Good for him.

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Is Ostracized, Demeaned and Threatened

The people who did that are fucking assholes.

So are their apologists.

[mnealtx 0]

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High School Student Stands Up Against Prayer at Public School

Good for him.

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Is Ostracized, Demeaned and Threatened

The people who did that are fucking assholes.

So are their apologists.

As are the people that ostracize, demean and threaten the religious - and their apologists.

Edit to add link: The Bastrop Police Department and Morehouse Parish Sheriff's Office said they had not received any complaints by the student about the alleged threats.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[dreamdancer 0]

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...Damon Fowler, an atheist student at Bastrop High School in Louisiana, was about to graduate. His public school was planning to have a prayer as part of the graduation ceremony: as they traditionally did, as so many public schools around the country do every year...

And then the school canceled the prayer, as stated in your own link.

but still managed to get it in through the back door and in the meantime the student in the right was ostracised, demeaned and threatened. which presumably you agree with as you haven't stated otherwise...

stay away from moving propellers - they bite
blue skies from thai sky adventures
good solid response-provoking keyboarding

[mnealtx 0]

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...Damon Fowler, an atheist student at Bastrop High School in Louisiana, was about to graduate. His public school was planning to have a prayer as part of the graduation ceremony: as they traditionally did, as so many public schools around the country do every year...

And then the school canceled the prayer, as stated in your own link.

but still managed to get it in through the back door

Nope, sorry - that was by the student, which is allowed as shown upthread.

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and in the meantime the student in the right was ostracised, demeaned and threatened.

Funny how none of those threats were reported to the police or sheriff.

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which presumably you agree with as you haven't stated otherwise...

Wow, that's about a 3rd grade argument, there...a sad slip from your normal 5th grade level.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[BrokenR1 0]

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Yes, I did, and the information I provided was relevant to that reply.

No it was not.

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I'll restate:

1. Government mandate and government sponsorship of a venue has no bearing on the application of separation, as shown by Rosenberger and supported by Mergens.

That's nice, it's also irrelevant to my post no matter how many times you try to bring it up.

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BTW - since you're claiming that the 'government mandate' and 'government sponsorship' comments were made to a specific question, perhaps you can give us the name and location of the government restaurant that the praying family was forced to eat at?

Well since your reading comprehension sucks I'll try to help you out. A private setting would be your home. A public setting would be a restaraunt. A government mandated and sponsored place would be school. I said there was a difference between the three types of places. If you were to pray at home chances are that nobody will have a problem with it. If you pray at school then yes it can be offensive. Finally if you pray at a restaraunt as he asked then you arrive at my answer of possibly.

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2. The only place you can claim a right be 'free of religion' is on your own private property, just as the only place the religious can claim a right to be 'free of atheism' is on THEIR own private property.

That's also nice, and just as irrelevant to my post. I never made a claim to be 'free of religion' nor said anything about atheism yet you bring it up. Here I'll even include my whole post and the one it was responding to.

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I thought student lead prayers was allowed?

As a side note: and maybe this is directed more to dreamdancer, Is it offensive to an atheist if a family out to dinner prayed over their meal in a public setting. Not loud but possibly audible to a nearby table? Should that speech be considered unlawful and not protected under our constitution?

May thought is, if burning the American Flag which I think is repugnant, but considered free speech and protected under the law. I find the discussion of prayer being offensive to some, somehow needs to be quenched and therefore not considered free speech nor protected in public settings.

Offensive? Possibly. But there's a difference between doing it in a private or even public setting and doing it somewhere that is not only government mandated but sponsored as well. I do not have a problem with your freedom of religion if you allow me the freedom from it.

I'll bold the last sentence to help you find it. When I start having a problem with your religion is when you can not keep it to yourself and feel the need to intrude upon others.

So where exactly am I incorrect? In that I said Possibly, or in that I have a problem with people that have no respect?

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Rap is to music what etch-a-sketch is to art.

[mnealtx 0]

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BTW - since you're claiming that the 'government mandate' and 'government sponsorship' comments were made to a specific question, perhaps you can give us the name and location of the government restaurant that the praying family was forced to eat at?

Well since your reading comprehension sucks I'll try to help you out. A private setting would be your home. A public setting would be a restaraunt. A government mandated and sponsored place would be school. I said there was a difference between the three types of places. If you were to pray at home chances are that nobody will have a problem with it. If you pray at school then yes it can be offensive. Finally if you pray at a restaraunt as he asked then you arrive at my answer of possibly.

Well, since we're discussing reading comprehension and all, here's his exact question: "Is it offensive to an atheist if a family out to dinner prayed over their meal in a public setting."

He didn't mention a school or a home, only a restaurant - so where's this place that is "not only government mandated but sponsored as well", if you were only speaking to his question?

Myth....busted.

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So where exactly am I incorrect? In that I said Possibly, or in that I have a problem with people that have no respect?

In where you think that your desire to be 'free of religion' trumps the Constitutionally protected speech of the person praying at the table next to you.

That's a lack of respect to THEIR right to free speech, btw.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[BrokenR1 0]

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Well, since we're discussing reading comprehension and all, here's his exact question: "Is it offensive to an atheist if a family out to dinner prayed over their meal in a public setting."

He didn't mention a school or a home, only a restaurant - so where's this place that is "not only government mandated but sponsored as well", if you were only speaking to his question?

Myth....busted.

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So where exactly am I incorrect? In that I said Possibly, or in that I have a problem with people that have no respect?

In where you think that your desire to be 'free of religion' trumps the Constitutionally protected speech of the person praying at the table next to you.

That's a lack of respect to THEIR right to free speech, btw.

Yes he mentioned Aethism, I did not. I answered his statement with my opinion then elaborated by bringing up possible differences based on where it was conducted as well. My statement can be true for anyone of any religion or not of any religion. You're still running in circles.

Nowhere did I say my desire trumps someone else's protected speech. Please at least come up with a valid argument to troll with. At least then it could be thought provoking in some way.

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Rap is to music what etch-a-sketch is to art.

[dreamdancer 0]

...the meantime the student in the right was ostracised, demeaned and threatened. which presumably you agree with as you haven't stated otherwise...

stay away from moving propellers - they bite
blue skies from thai sky adventures
good solid response-provoking keyboarding

[mnealtx 0]

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Yes he mentioned Aethism, I did not. I answered his statement with my opinion then elaborated by bringing up possible differences based on where it was conducted as well. My statement can be true for anyone of any religion or not of any religion. You're still running in circles.

Yes, because so MANY devout christians talk about 'freedom from religion' - how silly of me to think that you were non-religious for stating that you should be allowed to be free of it.

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Nowhere did I say my desire trumps someone else's protected speech.

Really? Saying that people who pray where you can hear them are disrespectful isn't making the claim that your opinion is more important than their rights?

Really?

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Please at least come up with a valid argument to troll with.

Funny, I was about to say that, myself.

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At least then it could be through provoking in some way.

Too bad yours wasn't.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[dreamdancer 0]

...in the meantime the student in the right was ostracised, demeaned and threatened. which presumably you agree with as you haven't stated otherwise...

stay away from moving propellers - they bite
blue skies from thai sky adventures
good solid response-provoking keyboarding

[BrokenR1 0]

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Yes he mentioned Aethism, I did not. I answered his statement with my opinion then elaborated by bringing up possible differences based on where it was conducted as well. My statement can be true for anyone of any religion or not of any religion. You're still running in circles.

Yes, because so MANY devout christians talk about 'freedom from religion' - how silly of me to think that you were non-religious for stating that you should be allowed to be free of it.

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Nowhere did I say my desire trumps someone else's protected speech.

Really? Saying that people who pray where you can hear them are disrespectful isn't making the claim that your opinion is more important than their rights?

Really?

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Please at least come up with a valid argument to troll with.

Funny, I was about to say that, myself.

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At least then it could be through provoking in some way.

Too bad yours wasn't.

Your arguments are weak but at least it gives me something to read until my day is over.

You can't show me where I claim my opinion is more important than any other persons rights?

You were about to say that?

Really?

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Rap is to music what etch-a-sketch is to art.

[mnealtx 0]

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Your arguments are weak but at least it gives me something to read until my day is over.

Yours are non-existent but, as you said, it gives me something to read until the day is over.

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You can't show me where I claim my opinion is more important than any other persons rights?

"When I start having a problem with your religion is when you can not keep it to yourself and feel the need to intrude upon others."

Looks like the family praying in the restaurant is intruding on your 'free from religion' zone. You *are* still claiming that's all you're talking about, right?

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[dreamdancer 0]

there is no family praying in a restaurant. there is this...

...in the meantime the student in the right was ostracised, demeaned and threatened. which presumably you agree with as you haven't stated otherwise...

stay away from moving propellers - they bite
blue skies from thai sky adventures
good solid response-provoking keyboarding

[BrokenR1 0]

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Yours are non-existent but, as you said, it gives me something to read until the day is over.

For once you actually got something right. I'm not making any arguments. With you it would be pointless. I'm chalking it up to trolling but it could be something else...

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"When I start having a problem with your religion is when you can not keep it to yourself and feel the need to intrude upon others."

Looks like the family praying in the restaurant is intruding on your 'free from religion' zone. You *are* still claiming that's all you're talking about, right?

Nope, didn't say anything about a 'free from religion' zone. Do you have anybody else around you that can just read you this thread? You may find it useful to understand what other people are saying.

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Rap is to music what etch-a-sketch is to art.

[mnealtx 0]

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Nope, didn't say anything about a 'free from religion' zone.

"I do not have a problem with your freedom of religion if you allow me the freedom from it."

"When I start having a problem with your religion is when you can not keep it to yourself and feel the need to intrude upon others."

Certainly sounds like you have a problem with people expressing their religion around you - maybe you should talk with your first sergeant about it. I would say talk to your chaplain, but there's that whole religion 'intruding on others' bit that you mentioned.

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Do you have anybody else around you that can just read you this thread? You may find it useful to understand what other people are saying.

My coworker tried...he collapsed laughing after your first couple posts.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[BrokenR1 0]

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Nope, didn't say anything about a 'free from religion' zone.

"I do not have a problem with your freedom of religion if you allow me the freedom from it."

"When I start having a problem with your religion is when you can not keep it to yourself and feel the need to intrude upon others."

Certainly sounds like you have a problem with people expressing their religion around you - maybe you should talk with your first sergeant about it. I would say talk to your chaplain, but there's that whole religion 'intruding on others' bit that you mentioned.

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Do you have anybody else around you that can just read you this thread? You may find it useful to understand what other people are saying.

My coworker tried...he collapsed laughing after your first couple posts.

Again with the assuming, kinda old isn't it? Did I say I was in the military? Did I say I have a problem with someone in a restaurant praying? Did I say if I do not like something that means others have no right to do it?

Your coworker collapsed laughing. Did you make yet another assumption about what he was laughing about?

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Rap is to music what etch-a-sketch is to art.