High School Student Stands Up Against Prayer at Public School and Is Ostracized, Demeaned and Threatened

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Well, prayer in school has been around for hundreds of years, including at sporting events. Just go with the flow. That's all I'm saying.

Tradition has never been an indication of whether something is the right thing to do.

[Coreece 190]

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so you'd belittle the virgin mary

Certainly not! Just the Roman Pagan goddess worship of her. I'd use the book from which they base their faith to argue my case.

So you would belittle others beliefs because they are not your beliefs.

No, I would explain how many of their beliefs are not found in scripture and in fact, are the opposite.

This can all be discussed cordially over tea and crumpets...

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... so your intolerant and a hypocrite

No, you're

Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are...

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This can all be discussed cordially over tea and crumpets...

Mmm, tea and crumpets. Now we're talking.

[Southern_Man 0]

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May thought is, if burning the American Flag which I think is repugnant, but considered free speech and protected under the law. I find the discussion of prayer being offensive to some, somehow needs to be quenched and therefore not considered free speech nor protected in public settings.

You seem to be conflating government sponsored (i.e. established) with protected.

"What if there were no hypothetical questions?"

[Andy9o8 2]

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Yeah we need more lawsuits.

+1

[dreamdancer 0]

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This can all be discussed cordially over tea and crumpets...

Mmm, tea and crumpets. Now we're talking.

yummy...

stay away from moving propellers - they bite
blue skies from thai sky adventures
good solid response-provoking keyboarding

[billvon 3,118]

>Well, prayer in school has been around for hundreds of years, including at
>sporting events. Just go with the flow.

Well, so was slavery, women as property, theocratic governments, segregated schools, laws against interracial marrage etc. Heck, some of them still exist. But fortunately most of the world didn't equate "being around for hundreds of years" with "so it's OK."

I bet even most conservatives would be irate if someone told them "you shouldn't bring your black girlfriend to the dance. That's just not the way it's done around here; you should go with the flow."

[BillyVance 35]

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>Well, prayer in school has been around for hundreds of years, including at
>sporting events. Just go with the flow.

Well, so was slavery, women as property, theocratic governments, segregated schools, laws against interracial marrage etc. Heck, some of them still exist. But fortunately most of the world didn't equate "being around for hundreds of years" with "so it's OK."

I bet even most conservatives would be irate if someone told them "you shouldn't bring your black girlfriend to the dance. That's just not the way it's done around here; you should go with the flow."

I understand your point. However, saying something like that in regards to the black girlfriend, that's just racist. Somebody will argue freedom of speech on that, even if it is tasteless. On the other end, prayer to the god of your choice isn't a bad thing.

However, in all fairness, Christians are not the only worshippers out there. We have Jews, Buddhists, Muslims, Hindi, what have you. One prayer doesn't fit all. And of course, you have the non-believers... The best fit would be a moment of silence so everyone can say what they want to say, silently. The atheists can just mind their own business.

"Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban

[billvon 3,118]

>However, saying something like that in regards to the black girlfriend, that's just racist.

Well, but it wouldn't have been back in the 1950's - that's my point. The reason you can't get away with saying "no blacks at dances" today is that people back in the 1950's and 1960's did NOT just go with the flow; they made a big huge stinking deal about it, even when 99% of the people in a town didn't want to see those negroes at proper white events. Overall I'm glad they did.

>However, in all fairness, Christians are not the only worshippers out there.
>We have Jews, Buddhists, Muslims, Hindi, what have you. One prayer
>doesn't fit all. And of course, you have the non-believers... The best fit
>would be a moment of silence so everyone can say what they want to say,
>silently. The atheists can just mind their own business.

That would be a great solution.

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The best fit would be a moment of silence so everyone can say what they want to say, silently. The atheists can just mind their own business.

Sorry to nitpick here, Billy, but I'm curious as to why the need to tack on that last sentence. Why are the atheists not included in the "everyone" who can silently do whatever they want with the moment of silence?

I know there are some obnoxious atheists who would even be ticked off about a moment of silence, but I don't think they represent the majority. (And BTW, a lot of Buddhists are atheists too.)

[BillyVance 35]

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The best fit would be a moment of silence so everyone can say what they want to say, silently. The atheists can just mind their own business.

Sorry to nitpick here, Billy, but I'm curious as to why the need to tack on that last sentence. Why are the atheists not included in the "everyone" who can silently do whatever they want with the moment of silence?

I know there are some obnoxious atheists who would even be ticked off about a moment of silence, but I don't think they represent the majority. (And BTW, a lot of Buddhists are atheists too.)

Oh, they could do whatever they wanted, silently of course, in a way as not to draw attention to themselves. Read a book, check messages on cell phones, or just stare at whatever.

Oh by the way, cultures vary from region to region. My wife, who grew up in Connecticut, told me that at her high school graduation in 1988, they did not have a prayer. My high school in Alabama in 1986 did. My area is in the bible belt.

"Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban

[KidWicked 0]

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Oh, they could do whatever they wanted, silently of course, in a way as not to draw attention to themselves.

Or what?

Coreece: "You sound like some skinheads I know, but your prejudice is with Christians, not niggers..."

[Shotgun 1]

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Sorry to nitpick here, Billy, but I'm curious as to why the need to tack on that last sentence. Why are the atheists not included in the "everyone" who can silently do whatever they want with the moment of silence?

Oh, they could do whatever they wanted, silently of course, in a way as not to draw attention to themselves. Read a book, check messages on cell phones, or just stare at whatever.

Read a book? Not draw attention to themselves? Mind their own business? Seriously? I guess I find your perception of atheists to be rather odd and negative. I could be wrong, but I think most of us are capable of enjoying a moment of quiet reflection or meditation. (Of course, if your perception is mostly from Speakers Corner, I guess I can understand.)

[BillyVance 35]

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Sorry to nitpick here, Billy, but I'm curious as to why the need to tack on that last sentence. Why are the atheists not included in the "everyone" who can silently do whatever they want with the moment of silence?

Oh, they could do whatever they wanted, silently of course, in a way as not to draw attention to themselves. Read a book, check messages on cell phones, or just stare at whatever.

Read a book? Not draw attention to themselves? Mind their own business? Seriously? I guess I find your perception of atheists to be rather odd and negative. I could be wrong, but I think most of us are capable of enjoying a moment of quiet reflection or meditation. (Of course, if your perception is mostly from Speakers Corner, I guess I can understand.)

Okay, there was a certain amount of sarcasm in there, unintended...

I'll rephrase...

I do support a moment of silence at graduation. You can pray, or use the time to reflect on the positive influences in your life that helped get you to this day.

"Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban

[Andrewwhyte 1]

If the Christians could be depended upon to not interject their ideas that would be fine, but my experience is they are incapable of not doing just what the Christian girl did at the cerimony in question.
FUCK I HATE IT WHEN THE ADVERTIZING IS SPREAD ACROSS MY SCREEN SO I CAN'T SEE WHAT I'M TYPING. FUCK YOU CHOICE HOTELLS! FUCK YOU1

[BrokenR1 0]

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I thought student lead prayers was allowed?

As a side note: and maybe this is directed more to dreamdancer, Is it offensive to an atheist if a family out to dinner prayed over their meal in a public setting. Not loud but possibly audible to a nearby table? Should that speech be considered unlawful and not protected under our constitution?

May thought is, if burning the American Flag which I think is repugnant, but considered free speech and protected under the law. I find the discussion of prayer being offensive to some, somehow needs to be quenched and therefore not considered free speech nor protected in public settings.

Offensive? Possibly. But there's a difference between doing it in a private or even public setting and doing it somewhere that is not only government mandated but sponsored as well. I do not have a problem with your freedom of religion if you allow me the freedom from it.

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Rap is to music what etch-a-sketch is to art.

[mnealtx 0]

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I thought student lead prayers was allowed?

As a side note: and maybe this is directed more to dreamdancer, Is it offensive to an atheist if a family out to dinner prayed over their meal in a public setting. Not loud but possibly audible to a nearby table? Should that speech be considered unlawful and not protected under our constitution?

May thought is, if burning the American Flag which I think is repugnant, but considered free speech and protected under the law. I find the discussion of prayer being offensive to some, somehow needs to be quenched and therefore not considered free speech nor protected in public settings.

Offensive? Possibly. But there's a difference between doing it in a private or even public setting and doing it somewhere that is not only government mandated but sponsored as well. I do not have a problem with your freedom of religion if you allow me the freedom from it.

I must have missed where fed.gov mandated or sponsored it - I thought the prayer was by a student, not one of the Congressional chaplains.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[kelpdiver 2]

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I must have missed where fed.gov mandated or sponsored it - I thought the prayer was by a student, not one of the Congressional chaplains.

you're dancing a bit here. It was a planned element of the ceremony. They then said they pulled it, but let a student go ahead anyway. (and reading not too deep between the lines, likely tipped her off to that course)

[mnealtx 0]

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I must have missed where fed.gov mandated or sponsored it - I thought the prayer was by a student, not one of the Congressional chaplains.

you're dancing a bit here. It was a planned element of the ceremony. They then said they pulled it, but let a student go ahead anyway. (and reading not too deep between the lines, likely tipped her off to that course)

Not dancing at all - prayers at graduation ceremonies are allowed, per the Dept of Education:

"Prayer at Graduation
School officials may not mandate or organize prayer at graduation or select speakers for such events in a manner that favors religious speech such as prayer. Where students or other private graduation speakers are selected on the basis of genuinely neutral, evenhanded criteria and retain primary control over the content of their expression, however, that expression is not attributable to the school and therefore may not be restricted because of its religious (or anti-religious) content. To avoid any mistaken perception that a school endorses student or other private speech that is not in fact attributable to the school, school officials may make appropriate, neutral disclaimers to clarify that such speech (whether religious or nonreligious) is the speaker's and not the school's."

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[BrokenR1 0]

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I must have missed where fed.gov mandated or sponsored it - I thought the prayer was by a student, not one of the Congressional chaplains.

No, I must have missed where it was a private school that was in no way paid for by the government and the kids are not required to attend.

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Rap is to music what etch-a-sketch is to art.

[mnealtx 0]

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I must have missed where fed.gov mandated or sponsored it - I thought the prayer was by a student, not one of the Congressional chaplains.

No, I must have missed where it was a private school that was in no way paid for by the government and the kids are not required to attend.

Unfortunately for your argument, prayer IS allowed under certain circumstances, and the fact that the school is public does not imply mandate or sponsorship. Maybe you should have read some of the applicable law on the subject instead of opinion pieces.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[BrokenR1 0]

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I must have missed where fed.gov mandated or sponsored it - I thought the prayer was by a student, not one of the Congressional chaplains.

No, I must have missed where it was a private school that was in no way paid for by the government and the kids are not required to attend.

Unfortunately for your argument, prayer IS allowed under certain circumstances, and the fact that the school is public does not imply mandate or sponsorship. Maybe you should have read some of the applicable law on the subject instead of opinion pieces.

So school is not mandated? How interesting. And the government is not paying for it? Sweet, free education by all standards.

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Rap is to music what etch-a-sketch is to art.

[mnealtx 0]

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I must have missed where fed.gov mandated or sponsored it - I thought the prayer was by a student, not one of the Congressional chaplains.

No, I must have missed where it was a private school that was in no way paid for by the government and the kids are not required to attend.

Unfortunately for your argument, prayer IS allowed under certain circumstances, and the fact that the school is public does not imply mandate or sponsorship. Maybe you should have read some of the applicable law on the subject instead of opinion pieces.

So school is not mandated? How interesting. And the government is not paying for it? Sweet, free education by all standards.

Make sure to set the goalposts back to 120 yards once you're done shuffling them around, thanks.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[BrokenR1 0]

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Make sure to set the goalposts back to 120 yards once you're done shuffling them around, thanks.

Well I have been learning so much from you today until this. Terribly unclear what you mean.

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Rap is to music what etch-a-sketch is to art.

[mnealtx 0]

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Make sure to set the goalposts back to 120 yards once you're done shuffling them around, thanks.

Well I have been learning so much from you today until this.

Your posting certainly doesn't show it, since I provided proof that prayer *is*, in fact, allowed in schools under certain circumstances, of which a graduation ceremony is one.

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Terribly unclear what you mean.

*sigh*

School attendance and school funding having nothing to do the 'mandate' or 'sponsorship' of a prayer led by a student - you're moving the goalposts.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706