High School Student Stands Up Against Prayer at Public School and Is Ostracized, Demeaned and Threatened

[jaybird18c 25]

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And you can't pretend that ludicrous beliefs have anything to do with anything that could be considered actual thought.

Funny.

[Coreece 190]

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i would be extremely suspicious of anyone who hasn't worked out that father xmas doesn't actually exist for instance...

Well, actually there was a father xmas. It's just that overtime people began to make him what they wanted him to be and not who he actually was...

But just to humor you, it's interesting how the idea of Santa Claus typically fades away at around the age of 7, but the idea of God typically lasts a life time...

Comparing the creator of this magnificent organiztion of life to santa claus or the tooth fairy is simply a ridiculous attempt to conceal defeat.

Just face it, there is nothing you can do. The idea of God is inherrant in all human beings and it will never change.

The only way to alter that manifestation is to supress that truth and indoctrinate children to believe they are stupid, ingnorant, uneducated delusional morons if they trust in such an instinct.

Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are...

[billvon 3,114]

>High School Student Stands Up Against Prayer at Public School and
>Is Ostracized, Demeaned and Threatened

Imagine how comforted he'd be to know about this forum where _everyone_ is ostracized, demeaned and threatened. Perhaps he'd feel like he wasn't alone.

[jaybird18c 25]

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Yes. On the one hand we have the presupposition that evidence is useful, on the other hand we have the presupposition that everything we think we know about the universe is flat wrong, except the stuff written by a bunch quasi nomadic tribesmen who'd only just figured out that a golden statue of a cow didn't really have magical powers.

Actually, I was thinking along the lines that either your presuppositions lead you to believe that the rock layers are evidence of millions of years or it is evidence of a global flood and a much shorter timeframe.

[jaybird18c 25]

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>High School Student Stands Up Against Prayer at Public School and
>Is Ostracized, Demeaned and Threatened

Imagine how comforted he'd be to know about this forum where _everyone_ is ostracized, demeaned and threatened. Perhaps he'd feel like he wasn't alone.

Also...funny.

[dreamdancer 0]

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The idea of God is inherrant in all human beings

uhhh, no...

stay away from moving propellers - they bite
blue skies from thai sky adventures
good solid response-provoking keyboarding

[Coreece 190]

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The idea of God is inherrant in all human beings

uhhh, no...

Well then, I would question the critical thinking skills of such an individual.

I mean if the thought never crossed your mind, I would suspect there is something inherently wrong.

Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are...

[jaybird18c 25]

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I mean if the thought never crossed your mind, I would suspect there is something inherently wrong.

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"For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools,"

Romans 1:18-22

They want to do what they want to do. The second they admit that there's a Lawgiver...they are subject to His law. That cramps their style.

[billvon 3,114]

>I mean if the thought never crossed your mind, I would suspect there is
>something inherently wrong.

Agreed there. Of course, by the same argument, murder, theft, incest and drug abuse is inherent to all human beings. But I think we'd also agree that just because people have on occasion thought about those issues doesn't make them any more acceptable.

[Shotgun 1]

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They want to do what they want to do. The second they admit that there's a Lawgiver...they are subject to His law. That cramps their style.

Well, it might be nice to just do whatever we want to do, if it didn't cause any problems. But, even for us godless heathens, there are earthly consequences for our actions, so the "doing whatever I damn well please" generally doesn't work for very long.

And you say "admit" as if you think we believe in a god but just won't admit it, which is pretty silly.

[jaybird18c 25]

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Well, it might be nice to just do whatever we want to do, if it didn't cause any problems. But, even for us godless heathens, there are earthly consequences for our actions, so the "doing whatever I damn well please" generally doesn't work for very long.

And you say "admit" as if you think we believe in a god but just won't admit it, which is pretty silly.

I was an atheist for years mainly because I didn't want to be accountable for my actions. Not just because I didn't want to be accountable to our laws. My conscience nagged at me because I knew that ultimately, I would be held accountable to God for my actions. I didn't want to believe that. It didn't fit my lifestyle at the time.

[billvon 3,114]

>They want to do what they want to do. The second they admit that there's
>a Lawgiver...they are subject to His law. That cramps their style.

The flip side of that is if there are really people who cannot behave morally until there's an eternal punishment involved - are they really more moral than someone who does not fear such punishment, and instead behaves morally because they believe it's the right thing to do?

[kallend 2,147]

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Yes. On the one hand we have the presupposition that evidence is useful, on the other hand we have the presupposition that everything we think we know about the universe is flat wrong, except the stuff written by a bunch quasi nomadic tribesmen who'd only just figured out that a golden statue of a cow didn't really have magical powers.

Actually, I was thinking along the lines that either your presuppositions lead you to believe that the rock layers are evidence of millions of years or it is evidence of a global flood and a much shorter timeframe.

The evidence, viewed objectively rather than through the lens of a neolithic myth, is that the Earth is indeed billions of years old.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Shotgun 1]

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I was an atheist for years mainly because I didn't want to be accountable for my actions. Not just because I didn't want to be accountable to our laws. My conscience nagged at me because I knew that ultimately, I would be held accountable to God for my actions. I didn't want to believe that. It didn't fit my lifestyle at the time.

You believed in God, so you were not an atheist. Maybe you called yourself an atheist, but you were not one.

And I'm not only talking about our laws as consequences. If I treat people like crap, I end up with crappy people in my life. If I abuse alcohol or other drugs, I end up with poor health and other problems. Etc., etc., etc. It doesn't matter whether we want to be accountable for our actions; we will be accountable for them one way or another, regardless of whatever religious beliefs we have.

I never made a choice to be an atheist; I am simply incapable of believing in any of the gods I have heard of.

[jaybird18c 25]

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The flip side of that is if there are really people who cannot behave morally until there's an eternal punishment involved - are they really more moral than someone who does not fear such punishment, and instead behaves morally because they believe it's the right thing to do?

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The flip side of that is if there are really people who cannot behave morally until there's an eternal punishment involved - are they really more moral than someone who does not fear such punishment, and instead behaves morally because they believe it's the right thing to do?

The religious person is not more moral than the non-religious person. In and of themselves, there is no difference. We all suffer from the same fallen conition. I know atheists who appear to live more moral lives than some Christians. On the other hand, the Christian (in Christ) is seen as righteous before God because of what Christ has done in their place. Because of the transformation in their lives, the Christian then makes his/her best effort to be moral. Not works unto salvation but evidence of regeneration. It's all in the motive. The born again (not just professing) Christian is motivated to be moral because he/she has been changed by God and wants to see His will done. The non-Christian who acts morally does so for other reasons. Even those acts, however, can be very moral (from our perspective) (e.g. Oprah building schools in Africa or Madonna adopting foreign babies). Romans 2:14-16

[billvon 3,114]

>The religious person is not more moral than the non-religious person. In
>and of themselves, there is no difference.

I agree.

>I know atheists who appear to live more moral lives than some Christians.

I also agree, and would add that I know atheists and non-Christians who actually DO live more moral lives than some Christians (and vice versa.)

>Because of the transformation in their lives, the Christian then makes
>his/her best effort to be moral.

In many cases, people do indeed do that - and that's great; that's an example of religion working for people. Unfortunately, some do not. As you point out, religion (or the lack thereof) does not guarantee moral behavior.

[jaybird18c 25]

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The evidence, viewed objectively rather than through the lens of a neolithic myth, is that the Earth is indeed billions of years old.

You are correct in that we view what we see through a different lense. That is a good description. Both conclusions are based on presuppositions which cannot be "proved" scientifically. However, I can say with confidence "In the beginning, God." You, on the other hand must say everything came from nothing on it's own, blew up, and became an organized everything...by blind chance....over billions of years, of course.

[jaybird18c 25]

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>The religious person is not more moral than the non-religious person. In
>and of themselves, there is no difference.

I agree.

>I know atheists who appear to live more moral lives than some Christians.

I also agree, and would add that I know atheists and non-Christians who actually DO live more moral lives than some Christians (and vice versa.)

>Because of the transformation in their lives, the Christian then makes
>his/her best effort to be moral.

In many cases, people do indeed do that - and that's great; that's an example of religion working for people. Unfortunately, some do not. As you point out, religion (or the lack thereof) does not guarantee moral behavior.

Billvon....I think we agree. I love it when that happens!

[jakee 1,594]

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Yes. On the one hand we have the presupposition that evidence is useful, on the other hand we have the presupposition that everything we think we know about the universe is flat wrong, except the stuff written by a bunch quasi nomadic tribesmen who'd only just figured out that a golden statue of a cow didn't really have magical powers.

Actually, I was thinking along the lines that either your presuppositions lead you to believe that the rock layers are evidence of millions of years or it is evidence of a global flood and a much shorter timeframe.

Again, the only presuppositons involved there are that either the evidence is useful, or that everything we think we know about the universe is flat wrong, except the stuff written by a bunch quasi nomadic tribesmen who'd only just figured out that a golden statue of a cow didn't really have magical powers.

Any honest appraisal of the evidence will lead you in one direction only. Of course your people put honesty a very distant second to propaganda in these matters.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[Coreece 190]

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or that everything we think we know about the universe is flat wrong

Well, in the words of the great winsor..."everything you think you know is wrong.

Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are...

[dreamdancer 0]

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The idea of God is inherrant in all human beings

uhhh, no...

Well then, I would question the critical thinking skills of such an individual.

I mean if the thought never crossed your mind, I would suspect there is something inherently wrong.

the idea of life after death, spirits, mother nature, pantheons of supernatural beings possibly - but not 'God' which is a very modern (you could even posit an 'evolved') concept. and one which by and large has to be forced onto people as is the case here...

stay away from moving propellers - they bite
blue skies from thai sky adventures
good solid response-provoking keyboarding

[jakee 1,594]

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The idea of God is inherrant in all human beings

uhhh, no...

Well then, I would question the critical thinking skills of such an individual.

I mean if the thought never crossed your mind, I would suspect there is something inherently wrong.

That is some terrible, terrible reasoning. You'd have to be blind, deaf and dumb to even have a chance of not being told about someone's idea of god. You might as well say that the idea of Batman is inherant in all americans.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[rehmwa 2]

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the idea of life after death, spirits, mother nature, pantheons of supernatural beings possibly - ..

roses by any other names

These are just other words for the God myth - I like how anti's also call on the great "Karma" right after they profess disbelief. Even they can't be consistent in their beliefs

I give the same credence to any of those concepts as well - can't prove it, doesn't matter, hope it works for those that lean on them. probably not for me though

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[rehmwa 2]

Batman IS real - I've seen it in the movies

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[jaybird18c 25]

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Again, the only presuppositons involved there are that either the evidence is useful, or that everything we think we know about the universe is flat wrong, except the stuff written by a bunch quasi nomadic tribesmen who'd only just figured out that a golden statue of a cow didn't really have magical powers.

Any honest appraisal of the evidence will lead you in one direction only. Of course your people put honesty a very distant second to propaganda in these matters.

An unbiased appraisal of the evidence could lead one in the direction of a global flood without the use of the bible. You just seem closed to examining all possibilities. You've drank the purple coolade served by your liberal professors in college...who also drank the purple coolade long ago. Have you seen the movie by Ben Stein called "Expelled?" He's not a Christian, obviously, and it shows the incredible bias in the scientific community in this regard. It seems to have moved from real science (observable/testable/falsifiable) to dogmatic belief in speculative/historical observation. Gathering "evidence" to fit your presuppositions. Didn't used to be that way.