david3 0
High School Student Stands Up Against Prayer at Public School and Is Ostracized, Demeaned and Threatened
By
dreamdancer, in Speakers Corner
Recommended Posts
Butters 0
QuoteQuoteBlah, blah, blah ... what good Christians you are.
Given your past comments on religion, if you expected a different conclusion to be drawn from your post you're living in a fantasy world.
I'm living in a fantasy? I'm not the one who believes the fairy tales told in the Bible ...
"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch
billvon 3,116
.thumb.jpg.4bb795e2eaf21b8b300039a5e1ec7f92.jpg)
>I would love for Richard Dawkins to come to my kid's private Christian school.
>Within their classical model of instruction, they're taught logic and critical thinking
>skills. Some of our kids could put on a clinic with Richard in a debate.
Well, we have a solution to this problem, then. When the student saying the prayer paused during the graduation ceremony, this atheist should have stood up and said "Christianity is a flawed and inaccurate religion, believed only by the weak-willed - and I will now demonstrate why this is true." After the atheist put the student in a clinic (or at least attempted to for 15 minutes) everyone would have been satisfied.
>Within their classical model of instruction, they're taught logic and critical thinking
>skills. Some of our kids could put on a clinic with Richard in a debate.
Well, we have a solution to this problem, then. When the student saying the prayer paused during the graduation ceremony, this atheist should have stood up and said "Christianity is a flawed and inaccurate religion, believed only by the weak-willed - and I will now demonstrate why this is true." After the atheist put the student in a clinic (or at least attempted to for 15 minutes) everyone would have been satisfied.
rushmc 23
QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteSo, if someone chose to follow, they could be, in your estimation, taught or indoctrinated?
How would some one determine which is which?
if we want to choose to use the word "indoctrination" in it's most negative sense then:
"indoctrination" is the teaching to children beliefs that are counter to the wishes of their parents (who are responsible for that alone)
how's that?
any other definition is just - indoctrination is teach people something I don't believe in
which sucks as a definition
I could go with this
But I was not the one who used the word here
I find it curious how some anti religion relious nuts are just as passonate in their beliefs but po po the beliefs of others.
We "po po" the beliefs of others because we're sick and tired of others beliefs affecting our lives.
Which is no different that your beliefs IMO. And it is a negative for this country at this point too IMOQuoteAnd then tell them if their children turn out to be followers then they were failed some how
Where did anyone state that?
It is an implication I see in the comments here. But I am just asking to clarify it for myself
"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln
rushmc 23
QuoteQuote
I could go with this
But I was not the one who used the word here
I find it curious how some anti religion relious nuts are just as passonate in their beliefs but po po the beliefs of others. And then tell them if their children turn out to be followers then they were failed some how
I hope you are not referring to me because I don’t believe I have done that.
.
No, not to you or anyone specifically
There are many here in gereral that the comments could be pointed at however
"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln
rehmwa 2
QuoteQuote
PS: At what age would you allow your child to deny your religion and refrain from participating in it?
When they move out
It is my house
See, I think that's a good answer - children are the responsibility of their parents and parents should get to choose nearly everything - especially stupid subjective stuff like religion.
Once the kids are adults, then they should take care of themselves and get to make their own decisions.
...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants
rushmc 23
QuoteQuoteQuote
PS: At what age would you allow your child to deny your religion and refrain from participating in it?
When they move out
It is my house
See, I think that's a good answer - children are the responsibility of their parents and parents should get to choose nearly everything - especially stupid subjective stuff like religion.
Once the kids are adults, then they should take care of themselves and get to make their own decisions.
Yes
"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln
rehmwa 2
QuoteWell, we have a solution to this problem, then. When the student saying the prayer paused during the graduation ceremony, this atheist should have stood up and said "Christianity is a flawed and inaccurate religion, believed only
I think turning any event into a Speaker's Corner debate would be funny. But not really very respectful. Instead, the atheist could have studied harder and become valedictorian and earned a spot on the podium to espouse their favorite, pointless, subjective belief to a captive audience.
Get good grades? you get to speak up. Get bad grades? be quiet and sit through it, you had your chance. Seriously. You should hear some of the junk that immature but very self serious high school grads choose to speak at commencements>>>>>
I mean, I don't want to hear some snotty kid speak up about "now being an adult and having to SAVE THE PLANET FROM GLOBAL WARMING" but I don't expect equal time to call out her brain washing. It's her moment. EXACT same thing. Let the kids have their moments.
...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants
SkyDekker 1,465
QuoteQuoteQuote
PS: At what age would you allow your child to deny your religion and refrain from participating in it?
When they move out
It is my house
See, I think that's a good answer - children are the responsibility of their parents and parents should get to choose nearly everything - especially stupid subjective stuff like religion.
Once the kids are adults, then they should take care of themselves and get to make their own decisions.
I don't.
Trying to force a certain belief system on him makes no sense in my opinion. I much rather discuss the difference in our beliefs with him, then telling him he has to believe something specific because he lives in my house.
david3 0
QuoteQuoteWell, we have a solution to this problem, then. When the student saying the prayer paused during the graduation ceremony, this atheist should have stood up and said "Christianity is a flawed and inaccurate religion, believed only
I think turning any event into a Speaker's Corner debate would be funny. But not really very respectful. Instead, the atheist could have studied harder and become valedictorian and earned a spot on the podium to espouse their favorite, pointless, subjective belief to a captive audience.
Get good grades? you get to speak up. Get bad grades? be quiet and sit through it, you had your chance. Seriously. You should hear some of the junk that immature but very self serious high school grads choose to speak at commencements>>>>>
I mean, I don't want to hear some snotty kid speak up about "now being an adult and having to SAVE THE PLANET FROM GLOBAL WARMING" but I don't expect equal time to call out her brain washing. It's her moment. EXACT same thing. Let the kids have their moments.
If the school would allow for it. That is my question. If it had been a Muslim would they have allowed a Muslim (Hindu, Wiccan, etc.) prayer?
.
rushmc 23
QuoteQuoteQuoteQuote
PS: At what age would you allow your child to deny your religion and refrain from participating in it?
When they move out
It is my house
See, I think that's a good answer - children are the responsibility of their parents and parents should get to choose nearly everything - especially stupid subjective stuff like religion.
Once the kids are adults, then they should take care of themselves and get to make their own decisions.
I don't.
Trying to force a certain belief system on him makes no sense in my opinion. I much rather discuss the difference in our beliefs with him, then telling him he has to believe something specific because he lives in my house.
So you are the one who supports indoctrination
"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln
rehmwa 2
QuoteI don't.
Trying to force a certain belief system on him makes no sense in my opinion. I much rather discuss the difference in our beliefs with him, then telling him he has to believe something specific because he lives in my house.
actually, you are just stating your personal belief - so you are following your belief in YOUR house - based on what "makes sense" to you
You cross the line if you go into Rush's house and try to force that process on his kids, just as much if he does it to you
...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants
david3 0
QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuote
PS: At what age would you allow your child to deny your religion and refrain from participating in it?
When they move out
It is my house
See, I think that's a good answer - children are the responsibility of their parents and parents should get to choose nearly everything - especially stupid subjective stuff like religion.
Once the kids are adults, then they should take care of themselves and get to make their own decisions.
I don't.
Trying to force a certain belief system on him makes no sense in my opinion. I much rather discuss the difference in our beliefs with him, then telling him he has to believe something specific because he lives in my house.
So you are the one who supports indoctrination
How so?
rushmc 23
I miss read his post
He had then instead of than
He had then instead of than
"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln
champu 1
QuoteQuoteThere is a difference between teaching and indoctrinating ...
So, if I am following this correctly, if rejected, it is teaching. If followed or accepted, it it indoctrination?
No, teaching is presenting both a subject matter, and the critical thinking skills to examine it and understand it. Whatever they go on to believe or conclude as a result is theirs. Indoctrination is taking a product of believing something (like prayer) and subjecting someone to it while they are (or for all intents and purposes are) a captive audience (such as graduation or optional-daily-morning-prayer-time at public schools.)
Don't pretend that sticking people in a room where 95% of others all recite scripture either aloud or with their heads down mouthing the words is teaching them anything other than that they will be singled out if they don't make with the praying.
If a student is given the stage during graduation for some other reason and he or she wants to include a prayer to whoever or whatever, I don't care. If the school gives a student the stage so that they can lead a prayer then it crosses the line.
QuoteUnfortunately for discussions regarding viewpoint favoritism, maintaining faith neutrality in public situations kinda necessitates "not bringing it up" because there's simply an indefinite number of things to have faith in. It happens that this arrangement works out extremely well for atheists and agnostics because, quite frankly, we don't really have anything to talk about. If this is interpreted as active favoritism towards atheists and agnostics, I don't know that I have an answer for you that you want to hear.
If you say, "everybody shutup!" and then someone says, "hey that's not fair, the person I was trying to talk to was giving me the silent treatment; if we all have to shut up that favors them!" that's kinda silly isn't it?
SkyDekker 1,465
QuoteSo you are the one who supports indoctrination
I sometimes wonder if you and I just speak two different languages. I have no idea how you would get that out of what I wrote.
I believe that open communication is preferred over telling my son wat he needs to believe to be allowed to live in my house.
You answered the question of when your child is allowed to deny and refrain from participating in your religion with: when they move out. Hence, they have to believe what you believe, nothing else will be tolerated.
rehmwa 2
QuoteIf the school would allow for it. That is my question. If it had been a Muslim would they have allowed a Muslim (Hindu, Wiccan, etc.) prayer?
.
we don't know in this case, it's a moot position
from what I've seen, I doubt the school would halt it at all
short version - if the student decides to bring it up? no problem no matter what it is - others should respect that just like they should be afforded the same opportunity if they won the stage - even if they see it during rehearsal as well - we are not in the censorship business
if the school schedules it specifically, or instructs the student to include it with a treat of punishment? that's a line crossed
...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants
rehmwa 2
QuoteQuoteSo you are the one who supports indoctrination
How so?
you are requiring you child to follow your process and your belief system because it's your kid
I have your exact same philosophy. I consider that I am 'correctly' indoctrinating my child in that philosophy (questioning research and skepticism). I think this is the right thing for me to do.
Just I think it is none of my business how Rush raises his kids as long as they are respectful of others in public. If I have an issue with kids, I don't correct the kids, I find the parents. Because it's the parents job to raise their kids as they see fit.
...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants
kallend 2,148
QuoteQuoteQuoteI believe deep down each one of them, in their suppression of the truth in unrighteousness, hates Jesus Christ (even if they deny it).
Yes, but you also believe you have invisible friends, so your beliefs are really quite meaningless and irrelevant.
Well, you believe in invisible particles that you have never seen.
There is clear, convincing, reproducible, measurable, objective evidence for the existence of elementary particles. We even make products (like the computer you are using to read this forum) whose functioning depends on their existence and our ability to manipulate them in accordance with their known properties.
There is NO objective evidence at all, despite thousands of years of looking, for the existence of these invisible friends. None, zero, zilch, zip.
...
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
Butters 0
QuoteWe "po po" the beliefs of others because we're sick and tired of others beliefs affecting our lives.
Which is no different that your beliefs IMO. And it is a negative for this country at this point too IMO
Given your posting history it's unlikely that you would (or could) understand the difference. I can't think of any reason to continue this discussion.
"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch
rehmwa 2
QuoteThere is NO objective evidence at all, despite thousands of years of looking, for the existence of these invisible friends. None, zero, zilch, zip.
I love when pros and antis pick at 'faith' with discussions about 'evidence'. The two, by definition, have no overlapping ground. none, zero, zilch, zip
therefore, the whole tactic is completely moot - from both sides
...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants
I hope you are not referring to me because I don’t believe I have done that.
.
Share this post
Link to post
Share on other sites