DanG 1 #51 May 16, 2011 You can stick your fingers in your ears and ignore reality all you want. It doesn't change reality. Is it assault and battery when a boxer punches another boxer during a fight? If not, why not? - Dan G Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #52 May 16, 2011 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuotethose who do the questioning know that actionable info will really never be gained during the process. The questions asked are those the interrogators know the answer too What they are after is cooperation. like, we know you're a witch - now cooperate and confess... Is this what alternet told you? even the most stupid can work out waterboarding is torture... Boy, that alternet world is a scary place I guess"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamdancer 0 #53 May 16, 2011 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuotethose who do the questioning know that actionable info will really never be gained during the process. The questions asked are those the interrogators know the answer too What they are after is cooperation. like, we know you're a witch - now cooperate and confess... Is this what alternet told you? even the most stupid can work out waterboarding is torture... Boy, that alternet world is a scary place I guess idiots who can't work out that waterboarding is torture are scary. tell us that you're not an idiot...stay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #54 May 16, 2011 QuoteYou can stick your fingers in your ears and ignore reality all you want. It doesn't change reality. Is it assault and battery when a boxer punches another boxer during a fight? If not, why not? Two men, are agreeing to do this. Our culture alows this. If one attacks another on the street and punches are exchanged it is something different. Your anology is not comparable here Again, the premise of your agrument is false Waterboarding is not torture I hear and see just fine You just dont agree with it"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #55 May 16, 2011 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuotethose who do the questioning know that actionable info will really never be gained during the process. The questions asked are those the interrogators know the answer too What they are after is cooperation. like, we know you're a witch - now cooperate and confess... Is this what alternet told you? even the most stupid can work out waterboarding is torture... Boy, that alternet world is a scary place I guess idiots who can't work out that waterboarding is torture are scary. tell us that you're not an idiot... As viewed by an atlernet boy I have no idea what you think or what you think I am. Nor do I care really But I dont believe you have the ablility to form your own opinions. your posts here prove that on nearly a daily basis"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,112 #56 May 16, 2011 Quote Waterboarding is not torture Yes it is. The difference is that when SEALS are TORTURED they entered into it voluntarily, and can call it off immediately. Your defense of the indefensible is ridiculous, absurd, and exactly what we all expect of you.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamdancer 0 #57 May 16, 2011 QuoteThe Washington debate over the simulated-drowning technique may be new, but the practice is not. It predates the Inquisition and has been used, off and on, around the world ever since. Its use was first documented in the 14th century, according to Ed Peters, a historian at the University of Pennsylvania. It was known variously as "water torture," the "water cure" or tormenta de toca — a phrase that refers to the thin piece of cloth placed over the victim's mouth. At the time, using water to induce confessions was "a normal incident of law," Peters says, and people viewed it more or less as we view a cross-examination today. If anything, Peters says, the Inquisitors "were more careful about it" than others of their time. "They were professionals," Peters says, noting that a doctor's presence was required during interrogations. Not that it made the experience any more pleasant for the victim, of course. Leaves No Marks "The patient strangled and gasped and suffocated and, at intervals, the toca was withdrawn and he was adjured to tell the truth. The severity of the infliction was measured by the number of jars [of water] consumed, sometimes reaching to six or eight," writes Henry Charles Lea in A History of the Inquisition of Spain. "The thing you could not do in torture was injure the body or cause death," Peters says. That was — and still is — what makes waterboarding such an attractive interrogation technique, he says: It causes great physical and mental suffering, yet leaves no marks on the body. http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=15886834stay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #58 May 16, 2011 QuoteQuote Waterboarding is not torture Yes it is. The difference is that when SEALS are TORTURED they entered into it voluntarily, and can call it off immediately. Your defense of the indefensible is ridiculous, absurd, and exactly what we all expect of you. It is very hard for you to understand anyone who is consistant and honest in their stands and opinions isnt it John And it is very easy to know why that is"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DanG 1 #59 May 16, 2011 QuoteTwo men, are agreeing to do this. Our culture alows this. If one attacks another on the street and punches are exchanged it is something different. The exact, fucking EXACT same situation exists for a soldier at SERE school. To claim otherwise is to ignore reality. - Dan G Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamdancer 0 #60 May 16, 2011 QuoteThe “water cure”: Here’s a description by 1st Lt. Grover Flint, 35th U.S. Infantry, of a typical field interrogation in the occupied Philippines: A man is thrown down on his back and three or four men sit or stand on his arms and legs and hold him down, and either a gun barrel or a rifle barrel or a carbine barrel or a stick … is simply thrust into his jaws … as a gag. In the case of very old men I have seen their teeth fall out — I mean when it was done a little roughly. He is simply held down, and then water is poured onto his face, down his throat and nose …, and that is kept up until the man gives some sign of giving in or becomes unconscious.… A man suffers tremendously; there is no doubt about that. His suffering must be like that of a man who is drowning, but who can not drown.2 Soldiers and officers called this technique “the water cure,” after a type of alternative health care, popular in the 1800s, in which applying cold water to the body was considered therapeutic. By using this term to name an excruciating torture, the soldiers were making what ethicist Jonathan Glover calls a “cold joke” — a humorless witticism that distances the torturer from his own action by making nonsense of the victim’s suffering. http://alarob.wordpress.com/2009/04/23/a-brief-history-of-waterboarding/stay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamdancer 0 #61 May 16, 2011 QuoteTo claim otherwise is to ignore reality. and another name for those who ignore reality?stay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #62 May 16, 2011 QuoteQuoteTwo men, are agreeing to do this. Our culture alows this. If one attacks another on the street and punches are exchanged it is something different. The exact, fucking EXACT same situation exists for a soldier at SERE school. To claim otherwise is to ignore reality. No, it is not"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #63 May 16, 2011 QuoteQuoteTo claim otherwise is to ignore reality. and another name for those who ignore reality? dreamdancer"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,112 #64 May 16, 2011 QuoteQuoteQuote Waterboarding is not torture Yes it is. The difference is that when SEALS are TORTURED they entered into it voluntarily, and can call it off immediately. Your defense of the indefensible is ridiculous, absurd, and exactly what we all expect of you. It is very hard for you to understand anyone who is consistant and honest in their stands and opinions isnt it John And it is very easy to know why that is The only consistency you exhibit is in poor spelling and absence of logic.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DanG 1 #65 May 16, 2011 As usual, a stunningly well thought out reply. Why is it not? - Dan G Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #66 May 16, 2011 Quote Quote Quote Quote Waterboarding is not torture Yes it is. The difference is that when SEALS are TORTURED they entered into it voluntarily, and can call it off immediately. Your defense of the indefensible is ridiculous, absurd, and exactly what we all expect of you. It is very hard for you to understand anyone who is consistant and honest in their stands and opinions isnt it John And it is very easy to know why that is The only consistency you exhibit is in poor spelling and absence of logic. Professional to the end"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,550 #67 May 16, 2011 It sounds like you saw a show about whether there is a cultural component to torture, with a definite point of view imparted (i.e. there are times when it's not torture). Do you automatically believe the show? If so, why? If an action stands on its own, and the circumstances don't matter, then why is there a difference between sex and rape? Wendy P.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #68 May 16, 2011 QuoteAs usual, a stunningly well thought out reply. Why is it not? Explained that you do not agree by the way Thanks for at least an honest exchange We do not agree but you stayed respectful more than kallend and dreamy boy can say"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #69 May 16, 2011 QuoteIt sounds like you saw a show about whether there is a cultural component to torture, with a definite point of view imparted (i.e. there are times when it's not torture). Do you automatically believe the show? If so, why? If an action stands on its own, and the circumstances don't matter, then why is there a difference between sex and rape? Wendy P. no, you assume way too damed much Wendy This guy came from our inteligence agency He was just explaining the huge misconceptions about the process"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DanG 1 #70 May 16, 2011 Your explanation was that context didn't matter, but then you finally agreed that context does matter, at least when it comes to boxing. My question is why context doesn't matter when we're talking about waterboarding, but it does matter when we're talking about boxing? Or sex/rape as Wendy pointed out? - Dan G Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,550 #71 May 16, 2011 Do you think he had any interest in defending a point of view, or was everything he said guaranteed to be factual? Wendy P.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #72 May 16, 2011 QuoteYour explanation was that context didn't matter, but then you finally agreed that context does matter, at least when it comes to boxing. My question is why context doesn't matter when we're talking about waterboarding, but it does matter when we're talking about boxing? Or sex/rape as Wendy pointed out? First off Do you think those men going through SEAR want to be water boarded? Or is it part of the process they acept In boxing, they enter into it as an action they wish to preform more than once Many hope the same for sex There is a difference Subtle or otherwise They are not the same IMO"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #73 May 16, 2011 Quote Quote Quote It is still a viable option. Torture: induce extreme physical pain. Enhanced Interrogation: induce extreme fear, harassment, sleep deprivation, etc. IMHO. As a Christian, you should know that waterboarding is torture. The church used it, along with the worst of the worst techniques, to force nonbelievers to submit to their delusion. Sadly, when the insane have control, bad things happen. http://www.exposingchristianity.com/Inquisition.html http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=15886834 True, those who have been through this technique say the is not so painful as it is terrifying. So, could it be considered more of an act terror? And if so, would that not make the interrogators terrorist? If an American is fine with America using "Enhanced Interrogation" on prisoners then they should be fine with it when it is done to American prisoner by our enemies. The nature of war is to kill people and break things. I think we should do whatever it takes to win. I believe the enemy will do the same. If the enemy tortures or kills one of ours then I believe we should capture one of theirs and torture them to confess who did it. Then we should go kill the perpetrator. Why do you make this so complicated? We should avoid war and resort to conflict only as a last resort. Once it starts, the enemy should be convinced never to start it with us again. So we can put you down with the total war.. where no captives should be taken... kill everyone and the hell with all conventions.. for our side when they do it to our people as well. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,550 #74 May 16, 2011 Do the men who become prisoners of war accept the process? Does a man being questioned at a police station accept the process, even if it includes being roughed up? Does that make it OK? Context isn't everything, Marc, but power, and the ability to say NO and have it matter, means a lot. SEALs can say NO. Boxers can say NO. Women in consensual relationships can say NO. Beating victims, rape victims, and prisoners of war cannot say NO. And saying that torture (which waterboarding was defined as before) is part of establishing dominance is bullshit. The subjects are prisoners of war. They're not in charge of anything. Wendy P.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #75 May 16, 2011 QuoteDo you think he had any interest in defending a point of view, or was everything he said guaranteed to be factual? Wendy P. Most likely he does have an interest in defending a point of view what difference does that make? You and I are doing the same thing are we not? He did not change my mind on waterboarding but his insite did add to my understanding of why and how it works He even talked about starting out with tummy slapping! Ever had that done to you? I have Not fun It that torture? Look One of the big "arguments" is that how can you be sure the info is good? You never can for sure, you just have to take the lead and see where it takes you And the process he talked about makes more sense than just doing the waterboarding it is a process It incluse lack of sleep and other things Agian If we do it to our own during training it is not torture, but we do it to gain info it is? Sorry, that boat dont float"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
