billvon 3,111 #26 May 16, 2011 >Shamefully and Utterly Ridiculous. Thomas Jefferson - "shamefully and utterly ridiculous?" I think I may take his word over yours on Washington's beliefs. Nothing personal. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dmcoco84 5 #27 May 16, 2011 Quote With the current level of our population as well as the worlds population in our current world... its a fantasy that is not going to happen. So.. welcome to the 21st century and not the 18th. Respectfully... If you truly believe this, you continue to show your ignorance. If tomorrow we let in a billion (non-terrorist) immigrants... Though we have not lived under the Constitution, since Andrew Jackson. Now... Democracy, does have problems with population. That's the Irony. We are not a Democracy, yet many are praising "Democracy" in the Middle East and are calling for it here. "What Does Democracy Look Like?" "This Is What Democracy Looks Like!" Democracy fails with increased populations... it leads to Mob Rule. For, whoever is the best "organized" rules. Democracy leads to tyranny... over the minority. We are/were... a Jeffersonian, Democratic Republic. For someone who has often talked about the Koch brothers... and looking at others who talk about the same; I'm sure you also feel that "Revolutions start with the Youth!" Yes, they do. And I am, apart of that, "Youth." However, revolutions are not glorious, they are ugly... and they rarely end with the individuals with whom they began. I am 100% against Democracy. Psst... I bet I've read more books on history than you. Psst... I read both sides too. Like the, "The Godless Constitution" Note on Sources: BECAUSE WE HAVE intended this book to reach a general audience, and also because the material we have cited is for the most part familiar to historians and political scientists, we have dispensed with the usual scholarly apparatus of footnotes. http://www.amazon.com/Godless-Constitution-Against-Religious-Correctness/dp/039331524X#reader_039331524X WOW! You Professors, are so much smarter than me. I should just listen to you because you are so intelligent and have a PHD. Right!? Right!? One of the George Washington books I am holding... has 50 pages of footnotes. I specifically like those that come from original sources, like his Diary. Which resides in the Library of Congress. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dmcoco84 5 #28 May 16, 2011 "Shrug" .... To each their own... I prefer Washington's words, for Washington. And equally, I'd stick to Jefferson's words... for Jefferson. But with both, utilizing original sources. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #29 May 16, 2011 QuoteA true testament to the wall of separation the Constitution builds between government and religion. Would that be the wall of separation that has Congress opening every session with a prayer?Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #30 May 16, 2011 Bravo... you read.... it is truely sad that so many of your fellow travellers do not. As for revolutionaries.. again... this is not surprising that you and your fellow travellers in the varied fringe right militias do seem to hate America so. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dmcoco84 5 #31 May 16, 2011 QuoteBravo... you read.... it is truely sad that so many of your fellow travellers do not. Yes, it is truly sad that so many... Americans... do not read. Fellow Travelers? What are you even insinuating...? And people have claimed, I, don't have a clear message... What are you talking about? With everything I have learned, about the multitude of things occurring in the colonies over decades before the DOI... we need to be teaching American History, EVERY YEAR!!!!! QuoteAs for revolutionaries.. again... this is not surprising that you and your fellow travellers in the varied fringe right militias do seem to hate America so. And which fringe right militias would you be talking about? Perhaps the Hutaree Militia? - Formed and began training in 2008 - Hutaree = Christian Warrior - FBI calls them a radical extremist group - Enemies: Government and Law Enforcement - They plan to kill law enforcement officers in several ways: (After routine traffic stops, at their homes, ambush them in rural communities, make false 911 calls to draw police to a location and then when they show up... Kill Them!) - After killing police, they want to ambush the funeral motorcade with WMD - After all of that... they plan to wage war, using IEDs, ambushes and other fighting positions to do so. Do you wish to kill Law Enforcement officers, Amazon? I would assume not... But ya know what... you are right, that sounds exactly like the militia that Benjamin Franklin was apart of. Full of Honor, Integrity, Character, Merit... and regard for Human Life. So, what do you think of the Earth Liberation Front? ("Fringe Left" - using your distinctions) They were bombing oil pipe lines in Canada. Hutaree... ALF... ELF... all threats to man's freedom. Destroyers of life, liberty and of private property. Not in line with the principles and values of our Founders nor any common sense American. So... your grouping of a "fringe right militia" and an individual desiring limited government and adherence to the Constitution... like myself. Is sad and shameful. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tkhayes 348 #32 May 16, 2011 QuoteClearly showing... you know very little about George Washington. clearly showing... you know very little about the Constitution. George Washington was a President, not the father of the country, not the supreme court, not the writer of the Constitution, not the senate, nor the Congress. One man does not a country make. He might have been a great figurehead, but his religious beliefs have fuck all to do with how the country should be run today. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dmcoco84 5 #33 May 16, 2011 QuoteGeorge Washington was a President, not the father of the country Mmm... but he was almost our King. QuoteHe might have been a great figurehead, but his religious beliefs have fuck all to do with how the country should be run today. Ya sure about that? QuoteGeorge Washington was a President Have you read, "Washington's Farewell Address 1796"? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dmcoco84 5 #34 May 16, 2011 And No Trump Either! Sweeeet! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #35 May 16, 2011 QuoteQuoteGeorge Washington was a President, not the father of the country Mmm... but he was almost our King. QuoteHe might have been a great figurehead, but his religious beliefs have fuck all to do with how the country should be run today. Ya sure about that? QuoteGeorge Washington was a President Have you read, "Washington's Farewell Address 1796"? Still livin in the 18th century??? You and your fellow travellers do seem to be just hunky-dory with Koch as your KING.. why dat??? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tkhayes 348 #36 May 16, 2011 QuoteMmm... but he was almost our King. not relevant to your argument (or mine for that matter) QuoteYa sure about that? yes I am QuoteHave you read, "Washington's Farewell Address 1796"? no, have you read anything by Sagan? Did you read "God is not Great"? George washington had influence in his day - I could give a shit what his beliefs were in this day and age. I am trying to survive today. Again, if you want religion in government - move to Afghanistan. If you want to live in 1776 - well good luck with that. You would have to first give up your computer, phone, car, job, grown your own cotton and slaughter some animal for dinner......have at it..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #37 May 17, 2011 QuoteAgain, if you want religion in government - move to Afghanistan. So, since there are Congressional chaplains and they open the sessions with prayer, where are YOU moving to in order to get away from all this religion in government?Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tkhayes 348 #38 May 17, 2011 I'm not moving - it's illegal and unconstitutional. I will stay, and use the powers of the Constitutional document applied in today's context and law to fight the use of religion in politics... In case you did not know, I actually know how to write a letter and have a coherent argument to make my point. I love to call my Congressmen and Senators and let them know when they are screwing up. I like to show up and 'town-hall' meetings and let them know what is wrong. What are YOU doing? what are YOU going to do? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dmcoco84 5 #39 May 17, 2011 Why do you write pointless comments like this, that only lead to pointless comments like his response... Sigh. Of everything written, that, is what you pick out...? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dmcoco84 5 #40 May 17, 2011 QuoteYou and your fellow travellers do seem to be just hunky-dory with Koch as your KING.. why dat??? You know me... Gotta get that daily dose of Koch Cock! We'll talk about it soon. I keep my word! P.S. You forgot to mention: TRICKLE. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #41 May 17, 2011 QuoteQuoteMmm... but he was almost our King. not relevant to your argument (or mine for that matter) QuoteYa sure about that? yes I am QuoteHave you read, "Washington's Farewell Address 1796"? no, have you read anything by Sagan? Did you read "God is not Great"? George washington had influence in his day - I could give a shit what his beliefs were in this day and age. I am trying to survive today. Again, if you want religion in government - move to Afghanistan. If you want to live in 1776 - well good luck with that. You would have to first give up your computer, phone, car, job, grown your own cotton and slaughter some animal for dinner......have at it..... I would take the 1176 country , as opposed to where those like you would like to take it today"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dmcoco84 5 #42 May 17, 2011 QuoteSagan Nope... been focusing on American and French History. QuoteGod Is Not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything Definitely not... the Godless Constitution was enough. Especially considering you can have God without religion, so after a book that says God is pointless in respect to our Republic, well, another book that says religion is poison, is at the moment quite unnecessary to read. Is there something of significance from it you feel I should know. I can't imagine there is... Though, I was interested in reading Hitch-22 after seeing an interview with him, but I would definitely not purchase it: see about hitting the library once I finish the many books on my shelf currently. QuoteGeorge washington had influence in his day - I could give a shit what his beliefs were in this day and age. I am trying to survive today. "Those who don't learn from history, are doomed to repeat it." QuoteAgain, if you want religion in government - move to Afghanistan. Ignorant... QuoteIf you want to live in 1776 - well good luck with that. You would have to first give up your computer, phone, car, job, grown your own cotton and slaughter some animal for dinner......have at it..... Very Ignorant... Why 1776? I would at least want to live in 1789ish... after the adoption of the Constitution. Much better than the Articles of Confederation. And even if I had a flying car... the (Second) Constitution, still works. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #43 May 17, 2011 QuoteI'm not moving - it's illegal and unconstitutional. As shown by the LONG history of Congressional chaplains, your OPINION of the situation is in error. QuoteI will stay, and use the powers of the Constitutional document applied in today's context and law to fight the use of religion in politics... Good luck with that - let us know when you find people being forced to church against their wills. QuoteIn case you did not know, I actually know how to write a letter and have a coherent argument to make my point. Haven't seen much evidence of coherent arguments - when are you planning on coming up with one?Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tkhayes 348 #44 May 17, 2011 *** Yes there is, Chapter Two, Tantum religio potuit suadere malorum. (To such heights of evil are men driven by religion.) - Lucretius, De Rerum Naturas But of course, the book is filled with reasons why religion is bunk. You might try reading it and then making some objective decisions on your own. I, afterall, read the Bible too, attended Bible studies, went to church, and participated actively in Christianity until i realized is was all crap. Then I read some other works like this and found even better reasons to be an atheist than even just the ones that I had originally came up with on my own. But if you only want to read the Bible and keep your scope of the world to JUST the Bible, well then i guess you are welcome to your narrow-minded view of things,- it is your right. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tkhayes 348 #45 May 17, 2011 Quote"Those who don't learn from history, are doomed to repeat it." absolutely. The Crusades (Christian) - Bad The Dark Ages - (also mostly Christian) - Bad The Spanish Inquisition (Catholic/Christian) - Bad The Puritans burning witches (Christian) - Bad The Puritans slaughtering natives (Christian) - Bad Women's rights oppressed for centuries (Lots of religions) - Bad The Holocaust (Anti-Semetic) - Bad The Taliban (Islamic) - Bad 9/11 - (Islam vs Christianity vs Islam) - Bad There are plenty of others, I have just listed a few. Perhaps you could enlighten us on some of the fantastic BENEFITS of religion in government over the past few centuries......something other than your own personal experience with 'God' QuoteIgnorant... QuoteVery Ignorant... fantastically concise argument - wow......way to make your point so valid! congrats! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tkhayes 348 #46 May 17, 2011 Quotelet us know when you find people being forced to church against their wills. Every time I go to a City Council meeting, they call the meeting to order, and then they stand for a Christian prayer. If I want to participate in that meeting - I have to 'go to church' as you say, to attend that meeting. Point- set-match QuoteHaven't seen much evidence of coherent arguments - when are you planning on coming up with one? I just did. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #47 May 17, 2011 QuoteQuotelet us know when you find people being forced to church against their wills. Every time I go to a City Council meeting, they call the meeting to order, and then they stand for a Christian prayer. If I want to participate in that meeting - I have to 'go to church' as you say, to attend that meeting. Point- set-match More like a double fault. By your own admission: "IF (emphasis mine) I want to participate in that meeting" - you are not forced to go to the meeting, and a prayer is not church.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DanG 1 #48 May 17, 2011 You just made TK's argument for him. I'll paraphrase: "If you want to participate in your local government, you must participate in a religious ritual." How is that okay? - Dan G Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #50 May 17, 2011 QuoteYou just made TK's argument for him. Nope, sure didn't. I'm unsurprised (although disappointed) that you show the same understanding of the establishment clause as he does, though - that is to say, none. QuoteI'll paraphrase: "If you want to participate in your local government, you must participate in a religious ritual." Participate in a religious ritual? I must have missed where they forced TK to give the prayer.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
