A Good Read on Wind Energy

[rushmc 23]

One key takeaway in my opinion

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Campbell Dunford, director of the Renewable Energy Foundation (REF), says that Germany – which has the largest number of wind turbines in Europe – “is building five new coal power stations, which it does not otherwise need, purely to provide covering power for the fluctuations from their wind farms. I am not sure [wind] has been a great success for them.” Mr Dunford claims that Germany’s CO2 emissions have actually risen since it increased its use of wind power. Though the wind itself might, in RUK’s words, be “free,” the cost of backup capacity is likely to be astronomical.

I hope that we never get any where near 30% of our energy provided by wind

We can not afford it


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/7823681/Does-money-grow-in-wind-farms.html

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[rushmc 23]

From the same link

And it is true here as well

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Does money grow in wind farms?
Wind turbines are a poor way to harness energy - but a very good way to generate public subsidies, says Andrew Gilligan.

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[wmw999 2,589]

A large part of the goal of wind power is really to minimize coal plant emissions. If that's the case, then even if you have a coal-fired plant sitting idle some of the time because wind is generating the power that's being used, that might be a good thing. An idle plant isn't generating as many emissions. It's not the most financially efficient, but maximum financial efficiency isn't always the goal either.

Now whether coal generates pollution is a different question.

But saying that wind is useless because it's not consistent enough is like saying that you shouldn't take advantage of salary bonuses because they're not consistent enough.

And maximum financial efficiency isn't always the goal. If it were, we wouldn't have worker safety laws, and people would all drive the same make of car, adjusted solely for size of expected load and terrain.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[rushmc 23]

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A large part of the goal of wind power is really to minimize coal plant emissions. If that's the case, then even if you have a coal-fired plant sitting idle some of the time because wind is generating the power that's being used, that might be a good thing. An idle plant isn't generating as many emissions. It's not the most financially efficient, but maximum financial efficiency isn't always the goal either.

Now whether coal generates pollution is a different question.

But saying that wind is useless because it's not consistent enough is like saying that you shouldn't take advantage of salary bonuses because they're not consistent enough.

And maximum financial efficiency isn't always the goal. If it were, we wouldn't have worker safety laws, and people would all drive the same make of car, adjusted solely for size of expected load and terrain.

Wendy P.

Your points are all valid
What is missing is the balance

And coal plants at idol still need to keep the heat up because spinning reserves are required! Not needed, required. Therefore, at a few minutes notice they need to be up to speed. Does not cut much

And, as stated about the turbines in the line , in nearly every case each coal plants number one user of its electricity, it itself

Not nearly as simple as you put it

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[billvon 3,120]

>Therefore, at a few minutes notice they need to be up to speed.

This sort of demand is best handled by peakers. (Methane, oil, hydro, pumped storage and solar are all good peakers.)

[rushmc 23]

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>Therefore, at a few minutes notice they need to be up to speed.

This sort of demand is best handled by peakers. (Methane, oil, hydro, pumped storage and solar are all good peakers.)

Not really

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[kallend 2,150]

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>Therefore, at a few minutes notice they need to be up to speed.

This sort of demand is best handled by peakers. (Methane, oil, hydro, pumped storage and solar are all good peakers.)

Not really

of course, your salary is paid by a coal fired utility, right, so you're paid to make such absurd claims.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Calvin19 0]

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>Therefore, at a few minutes notice they need to be up to speed.

This sort of demand is best handled by peakers. (Methane, oil, hydro, pumped storage and solar are all good peakers.)

Not really

agreed, peakers are relatively inefficient, and are really only there for the 'peaks' in grid load.

As a strong supporter of wind/solar/thermal/tidal/nuclear I have to be realistic. A massive wind farm that suddenly loses it's airmass movement will have a HUGE transfer of load. Most peakers could not keep up. It takes a while to heat, equalize, and spin up a big turbine in a fossil plant.

Edit-to distinguish the difference between a peaker and a coal plant at idle. A peaker picks up load need within seconds, what the inertia of a big plant cant get or if it cannot pump enough juice out. (coal plants should be universally fitted with scrubbers, and mostly closed down IMO).

[rushmc 23]

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>Therefore, at a few minutes notice they need to be up to speed.

This sort of demand is best handled by peakers. (Methane, oil, hydro, pumped storage and solar are all good peakers.)

Not really

of course, your salary is paid by a coal fired utility, right, so you're paid to make such absurd claims.

No
Not really

I am not paid to be a dick head


Can you say the same?

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[rushmc 23]

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>Therefore, at a few minutes notice they need to be up to speed.

This sort of demand is best handled by peakers. (Methane, oil, hydro, pumped storage and solar are all good peakers.)

Not really

agreed, peakers are relatively inefficient, and are really only there for the 'peaks' in grid load.

As a strong supporter of wind/solar/thermal/tidal/nuclear I have to be realistic. A massive wind farm that suddenly loses it's airmass movement will have a HUGE transfer of load. Most peakers could not keep up. It takes a while to heat, equalize, and spin up a big turbine in a fossil plant.

Edit-to distinguish the difference between a peaker and a coal plant at idle. A peaker picks up load need within seconds, what the inertia of a big plant cant get or if it cannot pump enough juice out. (coal plants should be universally fitted with scrubbers, and mostly closed down IMO).

The company I work for is spending billions retrofitting coal plants all over the fleet. NOX, SOX , and particulate scrubbers , you name it are being added. (Every year)

Way ahead of the requirements of today and still looking forward.

We will not see coal fired plants reduced in our lifetime or the next generation
Work should continue to keep making them cleaner

But that is not fast enough for the enviro wackos so they push the evil oil and coal and company mantra to try and push their life style beliefs on others

That is what is sad.

And I am still waiting for the obit stating that being down wind of a coal plant killed a person

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[kallend 2,150]

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I am not paid to be a dick head

OK, so you're an amateur who does it for free.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[rushmc 23]

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I am not paid to be a dick head

OK, so you're an amateur who does it for free.

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[rushmc 23]

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I am not paid to be a dick head

OK, so you're an amateur who does it for free.

Isn’t it interesting to note that some people, who are thinking, self motivated individuals, can do things on their own? And then there are those who have to paid and be told what to do and who they are?

I think the latter are called professionals

Or is that professors?


I get so confused

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[kallend 2,150]

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I get so confused

We all know that. We read your posts.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[shah269 0]

There is no one answer.
Unlike say hybrid cars where you have to "carry" parasitic weight with respect to an electric engine that is not spinning or a internal combustion engine which is just sitting while the electric engine is on, a diversified energy stream is the best possible solution to our current energy crisis.

Much as in investing you really don't want to have all of your investments in one stock. Each of our potential energy supplies have strengths and weaknesses. Yes we may not be independent of hydrocarbons any time soon but the investment in wind, solar and hydro in limited and studied systems is a great step forward towards further diversification of our energy needs.

And as with most initial investments there is a period of great hype, we are not past that, a slump in stock price, we are there now, and slowly a stabilization of the asset and a state of continued growth and steady dividends.

Our only problem? We are human and as such are prone to inserting our own "gut feelings" into such decisions. My suggestion? Sit down relax, and innovate new methods of harvesting and storing energy.

Life through good thoughts, good words, and good deeds is necessary to ensure happiness and to keep chaos at bay.

The only thing that falls from the sky is birdshit and fools!

[Calvin19 0]

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There is no one answer./////
Our only problem? We are human and as such are prone to inserting our own "gut feelings" into such decisions. My suggestion? Sit down relax, and innovate new methods of harvesting and storing energy.

Agreed.