airdvr 210 #26 May 5, 2011 Quote Quote Oh yes...I'd almost forgotten that its our fault. Quote The US military logged over 60,000 civilian deaths in the Iraq war. Cite please. Not disagreeing with you just interested in knowing where that number came from. Quote I'm not sure how much blame can be placed on an 18-year old kid whose entire family has been blown up by the US wanting to get revenge on the US. While I can't be sure how much blame to place either, I can take as good a guess as you can and say...perhaps his parents, people in his neighborhood who gave aid and comfort, Saddam Hussein who indoctrinated him as a child. And, of course the US for laying waste to his neighborhood. If he wants to blame it all on the US that's his cross to bear. Quote When you kill 60,000 civilians, trying to pass the blame on to someone else as justification doesn't actually mean you were right in doing so. Doesn't necessarily mean you're wrong either. I'm very interested to now how to determine a civilian from a combatant. We sure could have used that technique in Southeast Asia.Please don't dent the planet. Destinations by Roxanne Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SpeedRacer 1 #27 May 5, 2011 No I am NOT saying AQ is justified. I am saying the killer had a specific motive. And the motive was not some la de da boyscout bullshit like "They hate our freedom!" Edited to add: It really doesn't matter if you or I think it was OK for US troops to be in Saudi Arabia. You and I are not Sunni Muslim extremists, like AQ. The fact is that Muslim Extremists were definitely NOT cool with the US troop presence in SA. That (along with US support for Israel) is one of the main reasons they attacked. They wanted to get the US out of the middle east, because THEY see us as a threat to the lives of Muslims, and to their way of life. Your opinion of the US's place over there doesn't matter, they don't see things as you do. Speed Racer -------------------------------------------------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,132 #28 May 5, 2011 >Of those 30,000 killed, how many were good and how many were just >caught in the cross fire? ?? Are they mutually exclusive? MOST of the people killed in Iraq were innocents, just "caught in the crossfire" if you will. >Al Qada and the Taliban have killed more of thier own than anyone else. No, they haven't. There have never been 100,000 Taliban members, nothing even close. (The Iraq war killed around 100,000 people total.) >Yes, those muslims that have moved to America get it. Those that are still >over there, don't. So can we assume that you do not "get" the Middle East because you haven't moved there? If so, why do you claim to understand them? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jgoose71 0 #29 May 5, 2011 Quote You really need a well-defined enemy, don't you. There isn't a well-defined enemy. It's not Muslims -- there are millions of good ones, and you cannot assume they're all guilty until proven innocent. It's not middle-easterners -- if it were, why are we trying to "make them free?" If it's al-Qaeda, well, we just took out their leader. That's a good thing. And as far as those people who might have been good, and might have been caught in the cross-fire -- well, can't they be good and have been caught in the cross-fire? And do you think that, in the middle east, you'd be considered a "good" American? Wendy P. I do not need a well defined enemy. I know who the enemy is. I know there are good ones and bad ones. What I have been trying to get across here is that in the other countries where there are bad ones, the good ones need to stand up to them. Until that happens, we will have more of the same. Yes, there are those good Muslims that have been caught in the cross fire. I have seen AQ tie up a family in a house, wait for an American convoy to come by and open fire so the convoy shoots up the house so they could get video tape of Americans killing innocent women and children. Who are you going to blame for those deaths? The Americans or Al Qada? And am I a good American? To some Iraqi's and Afghani's I am the Bee's Knee's. To others, there is a bounty on my head. I have come to recognize the words "I'll get you bomb man!" in Farsi..... Quote No I am NOT saying AQ is justified. I am saying the killer had a specific motive. And the motive was not some la de da boyscout bullshit like "They hate our freedom!" Edited to add: It really doesn't matter if you or I think it was OK for US troops to be in Saudi Arabia. You and I are not Sunni Muslim extremists, like AQ. The fact is that Muslim Extremists were definitely NOT cool with the US troop presence in SA. That (along with US support for Israel) is one of the main reasons they attacked. They wanted to get the US out of the middle east, because THEY see us as a threat to the lives of Muslims, and to their way of life. Your opinion of the US's place over there doesn't matter, they don't see things as you do. SpeedRacer, you start by saying that the attacks are not justified and then say "but" and make excuses for them. What was your point again? Quote >Al Qada and the Taliban have killed more of thier own than anyone else. No, they haven't. There have never been 100,000 Taliban members, nothing even close. (The Iraq war killed around 100,000 people total.) >Yes, those muslims that have moved to America get it. Those that are still >over there, don't. So can we assume that you do not "get" the Middle East because you haven't moved there? If so, why do you claim to understand them? You misunderstood what I was saying. When I said Al Qada have killed more of their own, I'm talking about fellow Muslims, not fellow Al Qada members. Al Qeda is resonsible for more Muslim deaths than the U.S. and coalition forces combined. I am having some difficulties tracking down exact numbers but here are some statistics for you: Quote * Between 2004 and 2008, only 15 percent of al Qaeda's victims were Westerners, and that number skewed upward because of the Madrid and London attacks. * Between 2006 and 2008, a non-Westerner was 54 times likelier to die in an al Qaeda attack than a Westerner. * "Outside of the war zones of Afghanistan and Iraq, 99 percent of al Qaeda's victims were non-Western in 2007 and 96 percent were non-Western in 2008." http://www.nypost.com/p/news/opinion/opedcolumnists/killing_muslims_F654zSShSZlA5LnLIFkJKL I get Iraq and Afghanistan better than you think. After working with them, training with them, living with them for years, I got more than my fair share of their culture. As I have said before, until the good Muslims stand up to the bad Muslims in the countries where it counts, we are going to still have these problems. P.S. After a long philosophical conversation with a guy I consider a friend in Afghanistan I can tell you why 3 wives is the perfect number. Not 1, 2, or 4, but three....."There is an art, it says, or, rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss." Life, the Universe, and Everything Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SpeedRacer 1 #30 May 6, 2011 No I am NOT saying AQ is justified. I am saying the killer had a specific motive. And the motive was not some la de da boyscout bullshit like "They hate our freedom!" Edited to add: It really doesn't matter if you or I think it was OK for US troops to be in Saudi Arabia. You and I are not Sunni Muslim extremists, like AQ. The fact is that Muslim Extremists were definitely NOT cool with the US troop presence in SA. That (along with US support for Israel) is one of the main reasons they attacked. They wanted to get the US out of the middle east, because THEY see us as a threat to the lives of Muslims, and to their way of life. Your opinion of the US's place over there doesn't matter, they don't see things as you do.--- SpeedRacer, you start by saying that the attacks are not justified and then say "but" and make excuses for them. What was your point again--- I just reread my post. I did not use the word "but" anywhere. Describing the criminal's motive is not saying that it wasn't a crime. I was describing the motivations of THE MUSLIM EXTREMISTS when they launch these attacks. Not about whether you or I think the crimes are justified. News flash: The muslim extremists don't care what you or I think. Speed Racer -------------------------------------------------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
