Kennedy 0 #1 April 29, 2011 Cell Video of Arrest and Use of Force Cell Video from the other side So what do you all think of the arrest and the use of force? In short, I believe the arrest and the use of force were justified, though not the most effective tactics. I don't think the officers were wrong, but I think they could have done it better. I'll add my reasoning after a few posts. Questions? Concerns? Complaints? Constructive Criticism?witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1* Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DiverMike 5 #2 April 29, 2011 It appears to me she was obstructing an LEO attempting to perform his duty. I think most juries would consider grabbing a cop while he is trying to subdue someone else an offensive stance or attack on the policeman. I don't see that he used excessive force at any time. For the same reason I jump off a perfectly good diving board. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andrewwhyte 1 #3 April 29, 2011 Yes it was excessive. The first strike was unnecessary, the second one was a deliberate attempt to injure. The woman was clearly interfering with the cop doing (apparently) his job, but attempting to deliver a roundhouse to the face was neither self defense nor the appropriate method of restraining her. This is particularly true due to the fact that his partner was right there. The punch looked to me like it was driven by rage. We cannot allow those we entrust to keep the peace to be motivated by rage. This cop needs anger management training. If someone punches you in the shoulder you are legally allowed to punch them in the face. However that is not acceptable on any properly administered police force. The cop may not retaliate with a punch. A punch is only acceptable if it is necessary and appropriate to bring the situation under control. Retaliation is not in their mandate, punnishment is not in their mandate. It is the purvue of the courts. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
piisfish 140 #4 April 29, 2011 he should have Tazed her insteadscissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #5 April 29, 2011 It looked over the top to me. Especially his followup reaction. But I wasn't there in person. Cops should maintain their cool at all times, even when responding to a "real" threat. if they can't do that, they should do something else. And the girl shouldn't have interfered. two things, both wrong ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Butters 0 #6 April 29, 2011 Better be careful filming that ... Are cameras the new guns? Cops think so."That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shropshire 0 #7 April 29, 2011 A cop that can't keep his cool (especially in a far from dangerous situation like that) does NOT deserve his pay cheque!! (or his job) (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
david3 0 #8 April 29, 2011 What I find strange about the video is why the second officer didn’t address the girl reaching across the table. “Back-up” so to speak the first LEO. The second officer seems to be pulling the first officer out of the booth/off of the girl that is the focus of the first officer. In several frames the second officer appears to be gripping the first officer’s arm. That doesn’t appear to be an effort to just help extricate the girl in the corner. In the attached photo the second officer seems to have a grip on the sleeve of the first officer. Even with video we don’t have the complete story. With that being said, punching seems excessive and maybe the girl who got punched felt the officer was being excessive in the treatment of the girl in the corner. Did the second officer feel that way too? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andrewwhyte 1 #9 April 29, 2011 Quotehe should have Tazed her instead Or he could have said, "Hey Billy-bob, put that fucking doughnut down and get that bitch off my back, willya?" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kennedy 0 #10 April 29, 2011 OK, here we go. We can only speculate, but I think we can all agree the woman the officer is grabbing when the video starts was told to leave. When she refused to leave, she was trespassing. Being a private business, they can tell anyone to leave for any reason or no reason at all. In this case, the woman was being loud and obnoxious and disrupting the restaurant. We don't know if a store employee told her to leave, or if the off duty officers in their capacity as location security told her to leave. Either way, she didn't. She was then trespassing. We don't know what dialogue the officer and Suspect #1 in teh grey shirt may have had. (I hate videos that start in the middle of an incident) The officer at some point chose to arrest her. She actively resisted. She physically struggeld to avoid complying with the officers lawful instructions. (more than verbal, more than passive resistance, less than assault to escape) At this point, she's now added a resisting arrest charge. In NC, it's RDO. While the officer is attempting to arrest Suspect #1 over her resistance, the second woman in the black dress steps in. In addition to grabbing the officer while he's trying to arrest someone else (is this EVER a good idea? NO!) Suspect #2 pokes the officer in the eye/face. The officer tries to brush her off so he can complete the arrest of Suspect #1. At this point, suspect number two assaults the officer with a closed fist strike apparently aimed at the officer's face. (we commonly call this punching the cop in the mouth; also NEVER a good idea) Now Suspect #2 is the priority arrest for the officer. Despite what some seem to think, officers are not required to only use equal or lesser force against a suspect. The best practice for an officer faced with resistance is to end it as quickly as possible. This reduces the likelihood of injury to bystanders, officer, and suspect. After Suspect #2 struck the officer, a TASER would not have been unreasonable or excessive, per law, court decisions, and most department's procedures/regulations. The officers took Suspect #2 to the ground (generally the safest place for everyone). They handcuffed her. They escorted her out to a cruiser for transport. We don't know if they went back for Suspect #1, but I hope they did. Questions to be answered: (1) Was the arrest of Suspect #1 justified? Yes. Trespassing. (2) Was the force used against Suspect #1 justified? Yes. Active resistance. (3) Did Suspect #2 obstruct and assault the officer? Yes. (4) Was the arrest of Suspect #2 justified? Yes. See above. (5) Was the force used against Suspect #2 justified? Yes. (6) Could the officer have made better choices? Yes. This is with the benefit of hindsight and review of the video, something the offcier doens't have, and a standard the officer cannot and shoould not be held to (so says SCOTUS). The officer could have kept himself in better shape. If he didn't, the officer could have used Jerbal Voodoo on Suspect #1 to attempt to gain voluntary compliance (he may have, we don't have full video). The officer could have tried force other than yanking on Suspect #1's arm to get her out of the booth. The back and forth looks bad, and it gets Suspect #2 all riled up. Joint locks and pain compliance were options, as were clearing the booth to create space, or pepper spray. Pepper spray is not usually a great option due to the crowded area and poor ventilation. Officer #2 could have stepped in sooner and moved Suspect #2 back before the face poking and officer's push that led to the assault on officer #1. After that, the could have decision tree gets too big to even describe here. If I had one criticism, I'd say the first officer was in too much of a hurry. He looked like he was reacting to the suspect instead of acting to create a desired result. Too many departments don't have the money to offer truly high quality training to their officers whether it comes to use of force, shooting, or driving (the three biggest liability areas for PDs/SOs). I'd bet the officers had never trained use of force in a tight spaces or even how to deal with suspects hanging on to objects to avoid being taken away.witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1* Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #11 April 29, 2011 The police are always correct in all of their actions.... YOU WILL COMPLY Welcome to your personal wet dream world of a police state Kennedy... But I guess as long as you are ONE OF THEM... you are in complete control... YOU WILL COMPLY QUIT RESISTING WHACK QUIT RESISTING WHACK QUIT RESISTING WHACK Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Butters 0 #12 April 29, 2011 QuoteYOU WILL COMPLY Ok. QUIT RESISTING WHACK I'm not resisting. QUIT RESISTING WHACK Please stop, I'm not resisting. QUIT RESISTING WHACK"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 7 #13 April 29, 2011 Suspect #2 pokes the officer in the eye/face. The officer tries to brush her off so he can complete the arrest of Suspect #1. At this point, suspect number two assaults the officer with a closed fist strike apparently aimed at the officer's face. (we commonly call this punching the cop in the mouth; also NEVER a good idea) Quote Actually if you freeze frame, it appears she has something in her hand that she's trying to hit/cut him with. Also not a good idea. ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Kennedy 0 #14 April 29, 2011 QuoteThe police are always correct in all of their actions.... Nope. They're not always correct any more than they're always wrong. Go ahead and show where I've said otherwise. I dare you. In fact I can think of several things off the top of my head that disgust me about certain officers. I know an Internal Affaris investigator in a large department in this state that uses his position for petty vengeance. I made a sergeant aware of another officer testa-lying on the stand. Several officers across the country have been indicted this week for abusing steroids or selling confiscated drugs. The officers on teh boardwalk who arrested someone just for filming (in a public place). Etc, etc, etc. There are also things that some officers have done that I disagree with, or that I would have done differently, but I still have respect for them. QuoteWelcome to your personal wet dream world of a police state Kennedy... But I guess as long as you are ONE OF THEM... you are in complete control... You're the one who wants to take people's rights away without due process. I have no desire to move this country any further towards a police state, and if I could I'd reverse a great deal of it. One day you'll get it that a lot of your hero "progressives" are into authoritarian government, as long as they get to make up the rules. And for the thousandth time, I'm not in law enforcement right now, and have no plans to return at the moment, so I'm NOT "one of them". QuoteYOU WILL COMPLY QUIT RESISTING WHACK Do you disagree that when an officer has probable cause that a person is or has committed a crime, that officer has the legal authority to place the person under arrest? Do you think that an officer should never use force to overcome resistance to a lawful arrest?witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1* Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Kennedy 0 #15 April 29, 2011 QuoteYOU WILL COMPLY Ok. meanwhile he's reaching for a knife QUIT RESISTING WHACK I'm not resisting. as he tries to cut the officer QUIT RESISTING WHACK Please stop, I'm not resisting. as he grabs for the officer's gun QUIT RESISTING WHACK Please stop, I'm not resisting. as he tries to run away Saying and doing are two very different things.witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1* Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Amazon 7 #16 April 29, 2011 Quote Quote The police are always correct in all of their actions.... Nope. They're not always correct any more than they're always wrong. Go ahead and show where I've said otherwise. I dare you. In fact I can think of several things off the top of my head that disgust me about certain officers. I know an Internal Affaris investigator in a large department in this state that uses his position for petty vengeance. I made a sergeant aware of another officer testa-lying on the stand. Several officers across the country have been indicted this week for abusing steroids or selling confiscated drugs. The officers on teh boardwalk who arrested someone just for filming (in a public place). Etc, etc, etc. There are also things that some officers have done that I disagree with, or that I would have done differently, but I still have respect for them. Quote Welcome to your personal wet dream world of a police state Kennedy... But I guess as long as you are ONE OF THEM... you are in complete control... You're the one who wants to take people's rights away without due process. I have no desire to move this country any further towards a police state, and if I could I'd reverse a great deal of it. One day you'll get it that a lot of your hero "progressives" are into authoritarian government, as long as they get to make up the rules. And for the thousandth time, I'm not in law enforcement right now, and have no plans to return at the moment, so I'm NOT "one of them". Quote YOU WILL COMPLY QUIT RESISTING WHACK Do you disagree that when an officer has probable cause that a person is or has committed a crime, that officer has the legal authority to place the person under arrest? Do you think that an officer should never use force to overcome resistance to a lawful arrest? Hey as long as the OFFICER.... is not getting total COMPLIANCE to his every whim... That is a crime in your eyes right??? If I was the girl he just punched out like that and he had me on the ground in the same manner I am afraid his testicles would have been rearraged into the area of his TONSILS. Let him ponder that shit the next time he decides to take retribution into his own hands. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Kennedy 0 #17 April 29, 2011 Quote Hey as long as the OFFICER.... is not getting total COMPLIANCE to his every whim... That is a crime in your eyes right??? Nope. But failing to comply with lawful commands during a justified arrest is a crime. The law books and judges say so. Quote If I was the girl he just punched out like that and he had me on the ground in the same manner I am afraid his testicles would have been rearraged into the area of his TONSILS. Let him ponder that shit the next time he decides to take retribution into his own hands. Except you're smart enough not to be in a thug infested IHOP at 0300, you're smart enough not to poke an officer in the face while he's arresting someone, and probably would have left and called him non-complimentary adjectives when told to do so. Besides, if he did punch you like that, you'd probably just call him a damned sissy boy. I do however agree that his actions on the ground were not those of a trained and competent professional. He really could use some practice/training in ground control. He fumbled with the cuffs too.witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1* Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites SkyDekker 1,465 #18 April 29, 2011 It really is hard to tell from video. But, the closed fist strike while his partner is holding the girl doesn't look so good. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites david3 0 #19 April 29, 2011 Quote Actually if you freeze frame, it appears she has something in her hand that she's trying to hit/cut him with. Also not a good idea. I believe she is trying to film him with her phone in his face. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Kennedy 0 #20 April 29, 2011 QuoteQuote Actually if you freeze frame, it appears she has something in her hand that she's trying to hit/cut him with. Also not a good idea. I believe she is trying to film him with her phone in his face. Good eye you two. I missed the object in suspect#2's right hand. I think you're probably right about it being a mobile phone.witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1* Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites airtwardo 7 #21 April 29, 2011 QuoteQuoteQuote Actually if you freeze frame, it appears she has something in her hand that she's trying to hit/cut him with. Also not a good idea. I believe she is trying to film him with her phone in his face. Good eye you two. I missed the object in suspect#2's right hand. I think you're probably right about it being a mobile phone. Camera...freeze it @ 0:32 in the 2nd vid. The lens is filly extended, lanyard is around her wrist. . .~ Japanese nun-chucks (made by Sony) ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites popsjumper 2 #22 April 30, 2011 Quote ...But, the closed fist strike while his partner is holding the girl doesn't look so good. The cop is a wuss. If he can't KO a girl with a straight right, he needs to go back to the gym. Oh wait....from appearances, he never went to the gym in the first place. My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jclalor 12 #23 April 30, 2011 QuoteQuoteA cop that can't keep his cool (especially in a far from dangerous situation like that) does NOT deserve his pay cheque!! (or his job) Or his gun. And if he acts like that when he knows he is on tape, What does he do when he knows he is not? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites airtwardo 7 #24 April 30, 2011 QuoteQuoteQuoteA cop that can't keep his cool (especially in a far from dangerous situation like that) does NOT deserve his pay cheque!! (or his job) Or his gun. And if he acts like that when he knows he is on tape, What does he do when he knows he is not? So you're saying it's okay to not only disobey a law enforcement officer during the performance of his duties, but swinging a 2 pound metal object on a lanyard and hitting him in the face should be rewarded with milk and cookies? ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JohnnyMarko 1 #25 April 30, 2011 One thing I've learned being a drunk college student in a 24 hour diner right next to the bar is never fuck with the po-lease Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 Next Page 1 of 2 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. 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Kennedy 0 #14 April 29, 2011 QuoteThe police are always correct in all of their actions.... Nope. They're not always correct any more than they're always wrong. Go ahead and show where I've said otherwise. I dare you. In fact I can think of several things off the top of my head that disgust me about certain officers. I know an Internal Affaris investigator in a large department in this state that uses his position for petty vengeance. I made a sergeant aware of another officer testa-lying on the stand. Several officers across the country have been indicted this week for abusing steroids or selling confiscated drugs. The officers on teh boardwalk who arrested someone just for filming (in a public place). Etc, etc, etc. There are also things that some officers have done that I disagree with, or that I would have done differently, but I still have respect for them. QuoteWelcome to your personal wet dream world of a police state Kennedy... But I guess as long as you are ONE OF THEM... you are in complete control... You're the one who wants to take people's rights away without due process. I have no desire to move this country any further towards a police state, and if I could I'd reverse a great deal of it. One day you'll get it that a lot of your hero "progressives" are into authoritarian government, as long as they get to make up the rules. And for the thousandth time, I'm not in law enforcement right now, and have no plans to return at the moment, so I'm NOT "one of them". QuoteYOU WILL COMPLY QUIT RESISTING WHACK Do you disagree that when an officer has probable cause that a person is or has committed a crime, that officer has the legal authority to place the person under arrest? Do you think that an officer should never use force to overcome resistance to a lawful arrest?witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1* Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kennedy 0 #15 April 29, 2011 QuoteYOU WILL COMPLY Ok. meanwhile he's reaching for a knife QUIT RESISTING WHACK I'm not resisting. as he tries to cut the officer QUIT RESISTING WHACK Please stop, I'm not resisting. as he grabs for the officer's gun QUIT RESISTING WHACK Please stop, I'm not resisting. as he tries to run away Saying and doing are two very different things.witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1* Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #16 April 29, 2011 Quote Quote The police are always correct in all of their actions.... Nope. They're not always correct any more than they're always wrong. Go ahead and show where I've said otherwise. I dare you. In fact I can think of several things off the top of my head that disgust me about certain officers. I know an Internal Affaris investigator in a large department in this state that uses his position for petty vengeance. I made a sergeant aware of another officer testa-lying on the stand. Several officers across the country have been indicted this week for abusing steroids or selling confiscated drugs. The officers on teh boardwalk who arrested someone just for filming (in a public place). Etc, etc, etc. There are also things that some officers have done that I disagree with, or that I would have done differently, but I still have respect for them. Quote Welcome to your personal wet dream world of a police state Kennedy... But I guess as long as you are ONE OF THEM... you are in complete control... You're the one who wants to take people's rights away without due process. I have no desire to move this country any further towards a police state, and if I could I'd reverse a great deal of it. One day you'll get it that a lot of your hero "progressives" are into authoritarian government, as long as they get to make up the rules. And for the thousandth time, I'm not in law enforcement right now, and have no plans to return at the moment, so I'm NOT "one of them". Quote YOU WILL COMPLY QUIT RESISTING WHACK Do you disagree that when an officer has probable cause that a person is or has committed a crime, that officer has the legal authority to place the person under arrest? Do you think that an officer should never use force to overcome resistance to a lawful arrest? Hey as long as the OFFICER.... is not getting total COMPLIANCE to his every whim... That is a crime in your eyes right??? If I was the girl he just punched out like that and he had me on the ground in the same manner I am afraid his testicles would have been rearraged into the area of his TONSILS. Let him ponder that shit the next time he decides to take retribution into his own hands. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kennedy 0 #17 April 29, 2011 Quote Hey as long as the OFFICER.... is not getting total COMPLIANCE to his every whim... That is a crime in your eyes right??? Nope. But failing to comply with lawful commands during a justified arrest is a crime. The law books and judges say so. Quote If I was the girl he just punched out like that and he had me on the ground in the same manner I am afraid his testicles would have been rearraged into the area of his TONSILS. Let him ponder that shit the next time he decides to take retribution into his own hands. Except you're smart enough not to be in a thug infested IHOP at 0300, you're smart enough not to poke an officer in the face while he's arresting someone, and probably would have left and called him non-complimentary adjectives when told to do so. Besides, if he did punch you like that, you'd probably just call him a damned sissy boy. I do however agree that his actions on the ground were not those of a trained and competent professional. He really could use some practice/training in ground control. He fumbled with the cuffs too.witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1* Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,465 #18 April 29, 2011 It really is hard to tell from video. But, the closed fist strike while his partner is holding the girl doesn't look so good. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
david3 0 #19 April 29, 2011 Quote Actually if you freeze frame, it appears she has something in her hand that she's trying to hit/cut him with. Also not a good idea. I believe she is trying to film him with her phone in his face. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kennedy 0 #20 April 29, 2011 QuoteQuote Actually if you freeze frame, it appears she has something in her hand that she's trying to hit/cut him with. Also not a good idea. I believe she is trying to film him with her phone in his face. Good eye you two. I missed the object in suspect#2's right hand. I think you're probably right about it being a mobile phone.witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1* Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 7 #21 April 29, 2011 QuoteQuoteQuote Actually if you freeze frame, it appears she has something in her hand that she's trying to hit/cut him with. Also not a good idea. I believe she is trying to film him with her phone in his face. Good eye you two. I missed the object in suspect#2's right hand. I think you're probably right about it being a mobile phone. Camera...freeze it @ 0:32 in the 2nd vid. The lens is filly extended, lanyard is around her wrist. . .~ Japanese nun-chucks (made by Sony) ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #22 April 30, 2011 Quote ...But, the closed fist strike while his partner is holding the girl doesn't look so good. The cop is a wuss. If he can't KO a girl with a straight right, he needs to go back to the gym. Oh wait....from appearances, he never went to the gym in the first place. My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jclalor 12 #23 April 30, 2011 QuoteQuoteA cop that can't keep his cool (especially in a far from dangerous situation like that) does NOT deserve his pay cheque!! (or his job) Or his gun. And if he acts like that when he knows he is on tape, What does he do when he knows he is not? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 7 #24 April 30, 2011 QuoteQuoteQuoteA cop that can't keep his cool (especially in a far from dangerous situation like that) does NOT deserve his pay cheque!! (or his job) Or his gun. And if he acts like that when he knows he is on tape, What does he do when he knows he is not? So you're saying it's okay to not only disobey a law enforcement officer during the performance of his duties, but swinging a 2 pound metal object on a lanyard and hitting him in the face should be rewarded with milk and cookies? ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnnyMarko 1 #25 April 30, 2011 One thing I've learned being a drunk college student in a 24 hour diner right next to the bar is never fuck with the po-lease Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
